Transcript: Episode 0088

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<v SPEAKER_2>Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I am Corey J.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Mahler.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And I'm still, whoa.

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<v SPEAKER_1>On today's Stone Choir, we're going to be discussing honor and shame.

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<v SPEAKER_1>At the beginning of the year, we did an episode on the nature of religion, true religion.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And we made the point there at the beginning of that five part series, actually, I think six part arc, I'd recommend you go back and listen to after this episode.

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<v SPEAKER_1>In the true religion episode, we made the point that a man's true religion is the source of his morality.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Where are you getting your right and wrong from?

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<v SPEAKER_1>Today's episode is we're focusing on honor and shame.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's kind of a rehash of that premise, but we're going to take a different lens to approach the subject.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So we're going to be repeating ourselves with things we said about morality.

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<v SPEAKER_1>But I want to connect the fact that the way a society honors certain things, is the way a society shames certain things, is fundamentally the same thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Morality is right and wrong, and then honor and shame are enforcement of what we believe are right and wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So where honor and shame are applied, it's not always exactly right and wrong, but underlying both of them is a fundamental premise.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You have a group of people that have collectively decided as a culture, these are the rules.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Here's the benchmark for outstanding performance, and then the further you get away from that benchmark, the more shameful you are.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You have people who are just kind of average.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You have the heroes to whom we accord honor, and you have those who are shamed.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So by the end of the episode, I hope that you'll have another way of kind of evaluating fights you see online, things you see in politics or anywhere in the world.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If something is being upheld as an honorable task or activity or manner of speech or whatever, or if something is being specifically highlighted as, this is the most shameful, despicable, wicked stuff in the world.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If all the opprobrium, all the shame in the world is heaped on something for specific beliefs or behaviors, that is telling you their religion.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Now, as Christians, we should be concerned that there's alignment.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We don't want things to be objects of absolute shameful wrath if they're not actually even wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe you can think of some example I can.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, like fluorescent colors in clothing, maybe.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, like bright green.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's subjective, right?

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<v SPEAKER_1>You start to get silly when you're saying, well, that's really shameful.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Is it wrong?

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<v SPEAKER_1>No, I just don't like it.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The true religion that we express, not only is in terms of what we think is right and wrong, but where do we go to war?

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<v SPEAKER_1>Where do we say, I'm going to draw a line here?

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<v SPEAKER_1>And someone who does really well, I'm going to give honor.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Someone who does very poorly, I'm going to shame them.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I think another way of looking at it is something that emerged to me as I was looking through some of the scriptural uses of honor in particular.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We'll link in the show notes to the Bible Hub Concordance to show you some of the Greek usages of the words that are translated in English as honor, and what you'll find in those long lists of verses, you know, dozens and dozens of verses.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Sometimes it shows up as honor, but exactly the same word is also used in some cases for a price.

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<v SPEAKER_1>They're actually interchangeable.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The idea of something being honorable and something having a price, it works the same way.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so it always sort of struck me as odd that we would have prizes for someone who's receiving some great honor, like the Nobel Prize, and then you give them cash.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It always seemed like it was tacked on.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I didn't realize that, at least in Greek, etymologically, it's the same thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And it does kind of make sense.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So the flip side of that would be something like fines.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If someone does really poorly, they get penalized, right?

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, it happens in pro sports.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If they use foul language in an interview or something, they're going to get fined by the league.

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<v SPEAKER_1>A lot of money to us.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Not a lot of money to a pro sports guy.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, with $50,000 for saying a word that they shouldn't have said is typical.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That is shame being manifest with a price tag.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And I think it was interesting to me because going back for many thousands of years, it's entirely normal to have a price tag put on everything, including human life.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And we do that to this day.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We put a price tag on things that says, here's the value of this thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And it's never going to be equal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The value of your life in court will be different than mine.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, if you have kids, if you have family, if you're a certain age, all sorts of variables are calculated together to determine the value of a person's life.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's very offensive to us morally because it's like, oh, everybody's equal and the same.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And, you know, if I die, my family's sad.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If you die, your family's sad.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So it has the same value, right?

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<v SPEAKER_1>Well, not before the law.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And that's not injustice.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It would be injustice for a man like me who has no dependence to have my life value greater as somebody who has a bunch of mouths to feed if he's gone.

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<v SPEAKER_1>My life should be worth less because of that one thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So there are always variables that come into play for things that we think of as moral questions, but it's actually godly for prices to be put on things.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We find that in the Old Testament when god was the one actually writing the laws, he put prices on things.

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<v SPEAKER_1>A price is tied to honor and sometimes it's used interchangeably.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So just keep in mind that there's a value judgment being put on these subjects by entire cultures.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And when you hear honor shame, particularly if you've done some studying, and Corey is going to get a lot more into some of the details of histories of other races, there are always different approaches to how these things are implemented.

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<v SPEAKER_1>But they're fundamentally, I think, doing the same thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe we'll see if my thesis is borne out by some of his arguments.

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<v SPEAKER_1>But I think regardless of society, regardless of culture, regardless of the race that is implementing, the honor or the shame has two sides of the same coin.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's always going to be enforcing what the benchmark is for the culture.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And the benchmark may vary.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, Greek culture, Roman culture, American culture have very different benchmarks for what the ideal is.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And we honor and we shame accordingly.

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<v SPEAKER_1>But the principle, the underlying mechanism, is always going to be bounded by this.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We want more of this, we want less of that.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And these are enforcement mechanisms.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so once you realize that you, as someone who's honoring a certain type of behavior, a certain type of person, or who's heaping shame on a certain type of person, or a certain type of behavior, you are an active participant in shaping culture.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The way that you shame certain things is saying, this is wrong, this is out of bounds.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's an entirely appropriate thing to do.

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<v SPEAKER_1>For Christians especially.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like these things are replete in scripture.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We're called upon to honor some things and to shame others.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We'll get into some of the specifics from scripture, but it's not a bad thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like it's not fair.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's not that this is coercive.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We use terms like that and people get upset.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like it's somebody's being bullied.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like well, call it bullying, call it coercion, call it enforcement.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The bottom line is that there are rules.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And when you step outside the rules, there are going to be penalties.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The question is who's setting them?

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<v SPEAKER_1>And the bottom line is that it's going to be religious one way or another.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Even if it's a completely amoral part of society that's shaping what's shameful or what's honorable, it's still enforcing, here's what's permitted and here's what's not.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So fairly obviously, the topic of honor and shame is a broad one to say the very least.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We are not going to cover the entire history of the concepts and all of the little nuances.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Really what we're doing in this episode is what Woe said.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We're giving you a tool in your toolkit to understand some of these conflicts that are playing out in the public square, which today, for better or worse, tends to be various social media sites, particularly what used to be called Twitter.

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<v SPEAKER_2>However, some of the history and some of the nuance is important in order to understand the terms as concepts more accurately than if you did not have that information.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So when we speak of honor and shame, and we should have guilt in here as well, we're not going to use the exact sense in which those are used to describe certain cultures in the literature if you are familiar with that area of research.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's not to say that that area of research is irrelevant here, because it is relevant.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There are different cultures that process these things differently, that group these sorts of concerns, these things that society either encourages or discourages.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The way those are grouped and handled by society differs from one society to another.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And you can sort of put them under fairly broad and overlapping umbrellas, sort of a Venn diagram really.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But traditionally, you had the division into shame-based societies and guilt-based societies.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The literature has expanded to include fear-based, which is necessary because some societies really did not fall under shame or guilt.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's really sort of the tribal primitive societies that are fear-based, which is one of the reasons they were ignored, because traditionally the literature focused on the Western world and the developed parts of Asia.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But in order to deal with things like the pre-colonial Americas, or Africa even to this day, and certain other tribal societies, obviously the Aboriginals in Australia, you have to have that fear-based society option as it were.

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<v SPEAKER_2>A rough way to think about these, an accurate way, although rough, would be that shame-based societies are largely external in terms of the ways in which they punish or sanction behavior.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Guilt-based societies are largely internal, and fear-based societies are essentially supernatural in the way that they view these things.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The way to look at this would be for a fear-based society, if you do something wrong, the gods are going to punish you.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If you do something wrong, the spirits of the forest are going to chase you.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You see this in Amorindian myth and things like that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>When it comes to shame-based societies, it's more society is going to shame your wrongful behavior.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You are going to be subjected to certain treatment by society that you do not want.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You are going to be shunned in the marketplace.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You are going to be avoided by others in society.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Guilt-based societies, on the other hand, deal largely with internal sanctions again.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We see this in Christian societies by and large.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There's still shame in Christian societies, and this is why I say these are overlapping.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's a Venn diagram.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not three neat, totally separate circles.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because for instance, our society has both guilt and shame, although it is far more guilt-based with regard to those who are Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There's very little guilt, modesty, shame, anything for those who are atheist in our society.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But a guilt-based society, it's that internal sanction.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's the sense that you have violated the moral law.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You have done something that is wrongful in itself, and so you have guilt with regard to that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This plays out in a number of ways in society, not least of all, how you atone for, make up for whatever term you want to use, your transgressions.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In shame-based societies, usually it's some sort of sometimes elaborate public ritual.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In guilt-based societies, it's usually confession of your sin, your wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_2>These things all play out differently, depending on the kind of society in question.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But for this episode, that's sort of sufficient.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not an episode on that area of research.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's just to give you a rough background in it, so you have some idea of how these things work together.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We are going to be dealing with Christian societies, which is by and large, say, Western societies.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so we're going to have both shame and guilt.

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<v SPEAKER_2>These are both going to be relevant to what we are discussing here and how we are to live our lives, how these things play out in our societies, in our cultures, in our civilization.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because it's not just guilt and it's not just shame.

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<v SPEAKER_2>By and large, our societies today are more guilt-based than shame-based.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Part of that is because of the Christian tradition.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because obviously, according to Christianity, whether or not you have transgressed is a matter of the moral law.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So it's a matter of your individual behavior, whether it rises to the level of the moral law or falls below it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If you fall short of the mark, you have guilt because of what you failed to do or what you did wrongfully.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Now, there can be some shame along with that, obviously.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If you do certain things, they are considered shameful by society.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Not all of the things society considered shameful are intrinsically so.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And not all of the things that society considered shameful are not so.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Our society is a mix of good and bad when it comes to that issue.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Another way to frame this topic that I think is useful here at the outset is one of the ways in which Kant dealt with it in his writings.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You have essentially two different kinds or concepts of honor, not just one.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There is your public or external honor, which essentially is your reputation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Those are essentially identical.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And this is something that would be very familiar with historical shame based societies like Classical Rome.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And then you have what we could call internal honor.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That is your adherence to the moral law.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That is what you know personally.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That is your conscience telling you that you fell short or you lived up to your duty.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that's another concept that is related here, although distinct to some degree.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But you have these two senses of honor.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it's important to recognize that they're both real senses of honor, but they are distinct to some degree.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They overlap and they can feed into each other.

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<v SPEAKER_2>For instance, if you behave immorally, you will eventually develop a reputation for that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so you'll have both that internal and external honor affected by your immoral behavior.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But these things are distinct.

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<v SPEAKER_2>One way in which we see that as Christians, of course, is that all of the law, all of the moral law, makes demands on you personally.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Now, it can make demands on society as well.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It can make demands on families, groups, nations.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But the demands of the moral law, by and large, are demands on individuals.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Thou shalt not murder is a demand on you not to commit murder.

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<v SPEAKER_2>However, if you transgress those, then you will wind up developing the reputation as someone who is dishonorable.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so that failure with regard to the moral law, that internal sense of honor becomes an external one.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So again, those two are related concepts.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Another way that you can sort of start to frame these various issues, these ideas, these concepts, honor, shame, guilt, duty.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But to expand on the concept of honor, because that's really the core of what we're discussing in this episode, I do want to turn to ancient Rome and some of the concepts that they had, the sub-concepts underneath honor.

00:17:17.472 --> 00:17:20.232
<v SPEAKER_2>And really what we're dealing with is the virtues.

00:17:20.232 --> 00:17:31.472
<v SPEAKER_2>So yes, as the term itself implies, we are dealing with men initially and foremost with regard to what we are discussing with regard to honor.

00:17:31.472 --> 00:17:37.352
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not to say that women don't have honor, but there is a difference between male and female honor.

00:17:37.352 --> 00:17:44.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And as again, the term virtue very clearly implies, we are largely dealing with the male conception.

00:17:45.332 --> 00:17:53.992
<v SPEAKER_2>But the virtues that are relevant for us here with regard to honor are dignitas, fides, pietas, gloria and gravitas.

00:17:53.992 --> 00:17:56.132
<v SPEAKER_2>I will of course go over what those mean.

00:17:56.132 --> 00:17:57.392
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't really need to know the Latin.

00:17:57.392 --> 00:18:01.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Those are just the words for them in case you want to know the Latin.

00:18:01.692 --> 00:18:13.252
<v SPEAKER_2>So taking those again in order, dignitas is essentially public achievement or service and also your ancestral inheritance or legacy, which is very worth noting here.

00:18:14.152 --> 00:18:18.292
<v SPEAKER_2>You can to some degree inherit honor.

00:18:18.292 --> 00:18:21.592
<v SPEAKER_2>I will return to that shortly because there's some nuance there.

00:18:21.592 --> 00:18:24.692
<v SPEAKER_2>There's some important things to note.

00:18:24.692 --> 00:18:35.572
<v SPEAKER_2>But your honor is not merely a personal matter, because honor is also a family matter or a group matter or a national matter.

00:18:35.572 --> 00:18:40.012
<v SPEAKER_2>You can have honor or dishonor with regard to all of those levels as it were.

00:18:42.412 --> 00:18:47.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Fidesz is your trustworthiness, whether or not you keep your word.

00:18:47.912 --> 00:18:53.512
<v SPEAKER_2>This is one that is very familiar to those of us in our modern culture.

00:18:53.512 --> 00:19:08.032
<v SPEAKER_2>This is still something that is very much considered a part of, some would not necessarily immediately think of it as being honor, but it is part of your virtue as a human being, whether or not you are trustworthy, whether or not you keep your word.

00:19:08.032 --> 00:19:08.992
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that's Fidesz.

00:19:09.832 --> 00:19:11.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Piatas is, of course, piety.

00:19:11.272 --> 00:19:13.772
<v SPEAKER_2>We went over that in a previous episode.

00:19:13.772 --> 00:19:16.032
<v SPEAKER_2>You are all undoubtedly familiar with at this point.

00:19:16.032 --> 00:19:18.752
<v SPEAKER_2>That is your relationship to God.

00:19:18.752 --> 00:19:24.712
<v SPEAKER_2>In the Roman conception, obviously, to the gods, but in the Christian conception of it, your relationship to God.

00:19:24.712 --> 00:19:26.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you obey the moral law?

00:19:26.992 --> 00:19:31.692
<v SPEAKER_2>So that would be sort of the internal honor in the Conscien conception.

00:19:33.132 --> 00:19:37.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Gloria is military or public fame or renown.

00:19:37.292 --> 00:19:42.852
<v SPEAKER_2>The Romans considered this the highest form of honor, and in a sense, it actually is.

00:19:42.852 --> 00:19:51.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, we don't conceive of military honors as necessarily being something to which all men must aspire in our society.

00:19:51.192 --> 00:19:55.212
<v SPEAKER_2>And I'm not saying that's wrongful or necessarily that it's rightful.

00:19:55.212 --> 00:20:03.632
<v SPEAKER_2>There should be a willingness to aspire to that, but it shouldn't be necessarily the goal of one's life.

00:20:03.632 --> 00:20:07.692
<v SPEAKER_2>The goal is not to be a militaristic society, of course.

00:20:07.692 --> 00:20:12.112
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not an expansionist empire, and that's not something that we are advocating.

00:20:13.152 --> 00:20:33.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And then lastly, we have gravitas, which is seriousness in bearing and commitment to duty, which you can see how this is really dealing with the virtues, which again, it seems repetitive or as a tautology, a truism, but these are the virtues that pertain largely to men.

00:20:33.432 --> 00:20:37.652
<v SPEAKER_2>That's why men are supposed to have a seriousness in their bearing.

00:20:37.652 --> 00:20:40.892
<v SPEAKER_2>They are supposed to have a commitment to duty.

00:20:40.892 --> 00:20:45.612
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not to say that women don't have duties and shouldn't be committed to them, but it is a distinction.

00:20:45.612 --> 00:20:50.472
<v SPEAKER_2>There is a difference in the way this applies to men versus women.

00:20:50.472 --> 00:20:53.672
<v SPEAKER_2>But I said I would return to the issue of inheriting honor.

00:20:55.172 --> 00:21:08.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And the reason that that plays into this, the reason that is important is because again, not only is honor a personal matter, but as a familial or a group or a national matter.

00:21:08.052 --> 00:21:12.312
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you can inherit honor from your ancestors.

00:21:12.312 --> 00:21:15.572
<v SPEAKER_2>You can inherit honor due to your station.

00:21:15.572 --> 00:21:21.912
<v SPEAKER_2>The distinction here would be between earned honor, which these are just terms that I'm going to use to distinguish these.

00:21:21.912 --> 00:21:23.572
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not saying these are the terms you have to use.

00:21:23.712 --> 00:21:27.972
<v SPEAKER_2>I think they're good terms and useful, and so I'm going to use them.

00:21:27.972 --> 00:21:31.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Earned honor is a matter of what you do personally.

00:21:31.332 --> 00:21:36.572
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a matter of your actions, the things you do, the things you do not do.

00:21:36.572 --> 00:21:42.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Do honor is honor that is due to your rank or station.

00:21:42.312 --> 00:21:45.652
<v SPEAKER_2>That is the sort of honor that you can inherit.

00:21:45.652 --> 00:21:50.512
<v SPEAKER_2>This is something that has become alien to many living in the modern world.

00:21:51.312 --> 00:21:53.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Because we got rid of our aristocracy.

00:21:53.792 --> 00:21:56.052
<v SPEAKER_2>We replaced it with something far worse.

00:21:56.052 --> 00:21:58.972
<v SPEAKER_2>It's sort of a distocracy at this point.

00:21:58.972 --> 00:22:03.332
<v SPEAKER_2>But we got rid of this hierarchy in society.

00:22:03.332 --> 00:22:10.772
<v SPEAKER_2>And so we no longer have this understanding that there is honor due to rank or station in society.

00:22:10.772 --> 00:22:17.552
<v SPEAKER_2>With an exception which I have noted before, we still have a little bit of this with regard to our courts.

00:22:17.552 --> 00:22:25.112
<v SPEAKER_2>You refer to the judge as your honor, or you probably wind up being sanctioned or possibly thrown in jail overnight.

00:22:26.232 --> 00:22:33.232
<v SPEAKER_2>That is honor that is due to the station of that person, due to the office that he holds.

00:22:33.232 --> 00:22:34.572
<v SPEAKER_2>That is rightful.

00:22:34.572 --> 00:22:36.732
<v SPEAKER_2>There should be honor shown to that.

00:22:36.732 --> 00:22:38.472
<v SPEAKER_2>And there are a number of reasons for that.

00:22:38.472 --> 00:22:40.852
<v SPEAKER_2>We won't go into them here.

00:22:40.852 --> 00:22:43.432
<v SPEAKER_2>But that is due honor.

00:22:43.432 --> 00:22:54.092
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's important to recognize that you don't have just honor that you earned, as it were, from your actions, from how you have lived your life.

00:22:54.092 --> 00:23:03.912
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not just a matter of whether or not what you've done is honorable or dishonorable, but it is also a matter of your family and your group and your nation.

00:23:03.912 --> 00:23:14.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Because as Wo was saying, groups can have rules, can have standards, and you live up to them or you don't live up to them.

00:23:14.072 --> 00:23:15.912
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's honorable or dishonorable.

00:23:15.912 --> 00:23:17.432
<v SPEAKER_2>It's shameful or not shameful.

00:23:18.112 --> 00:23:23.812
<v SPEAKER_2>It instills guilt or not if you fail or succeed.

00:23:23.812 --> 00:23:36.092
<v SPEAKER_2>These are all related things, but they are distinct and they play into how our society organizes itself and how it deals with maintaining really society itself.

00:23:37.152 --> 00:23:41.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Because there are a lot of different functions for honor.

00:23:41.412 --> 00:23:48.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Honor is not just a matter of your reputation, although of course it is, because again, that's that external sense of honor.

00:23:48.712 --> 00:23:50.792
<v SPEAKER_2>It's how everyone views you.

00:23:51.632 --> 00:24:00.572
<v SPEAKER_2>You should be thinking of the Eighth Commandment, for instance, possibly also the Fourth Commandment, although that's slightly different in this sense.

00:24:00.572 --> 00:24:12.212
<v SPEAKER_2>But among the things that honor does, not just in maintaining society, having a conception of due honor maintains hierarchy and order in society.

00:24:12.212 --> 00:24:14.652
<v SPEAKER_2>It maintains the backbone of society.

00:24:15.232 --> 00:24:20.732
<v SPEAKER_2>It keeps things moving in the right direction, functioning as they should.

00:24:20.732 --> 00:24:26.952
<v SPEAKER_2>It also serves to regulate behavior, to control behavior, and that is an important thing in society.

00:24:26.952 --> 00:24:30.792
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't want everyone simply doing whatever he feels like doing.

00:24:30.792 --> 00:24:37.852
<v SPEAKER_2>There are a number of times scripture basically says, that's what was happening in ancient Israel, and it was very seldom good.

00:24:37.852 --> 00:25:00.112
<v SPEAKER_2>It maintains group cohesion, because when you have a standard to which your behavior will be held, and if you do not live up to that standard, you will incur external shame and internal guilt, then you are more likely to hold yourself to that standard, to actually work toward achieving that standard.

00:25:00.112 --> 00:25:05.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it works for group cohesion, not just that regulation of behavior.

00:25:05.052 --> 00:25:16.272
<v SPEAKER_2>It manages conflicts, because if you have this standard to which everyone is held, you simply get rid of a large class of potential conflicts.

00:25:16.272 --> 00:25:24.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if every man is simply living up to his own standard, that's a recipe for chaos and for disaster.

00:25:24.652 --> 00:25:30.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And you are going to have much more conflict in a society where there are many competing standards.

00:25:32.152 --> 00:25:40.632
<v SPEAKER_2>One of the reasons that you saw to get back to ancient Rome just very briefly, and potentially annoy some people who are very fond of the era.

00:25:40.632 --> 00:25:52.332
<v SPEAKER_2>But one of the reasons that you see the increasing conflict, the degeneration in Rome and the eventual downfall, is because you have all these competing standards of behavior.

00:25:52.332 --> 00:26:00.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Whereas earlier on in the Republic or the early Empire, you had a more coherent, cohesive population.

00:26:00.652 --> 00:26:04.412
<v SPEAKER_2>You had a standard of behavior to which everyone was held.

00:26:04.912 --> 00:26:07.312
<v SPEAKER_2>You didn't have a bunch of competing standards.

00:26:07.312 --> 00:26:10.892
<v SPEAKER_2>When you had those competing standards, you wind up with chaos.

00:26:10.892 --> 00:26:17.412
<v SPEAKER_2>And so Rome is a great example of a multicultural empire collapsing in on itself.

00:26:19.432 --> 00:26:26.232
<v SPEAKER_2>Which is sort of related to my next point for the functions of honor, is societal stability.

00:26:26.232 --> 00:26:29.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Because you have this level of predictability.

00:26:29.332 --> 00:26:33.232
<v SPEAKER_2>You have a standard to which you know others are going to be held.

00:26:33.812 --> 00:26:37.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And that is going to help you hold yourself to the standard as well.

00:26:37.752 --> 00:26:42.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Because it is simply just a practical matter.

00:26:42.572 --> 00:26:48.272
<v SPEAKER_2>It is easier to hold yourself to a standard if it is the standard.

00:26:48.272 --> 00:26:57.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Trying to hold yourself to a much higher and exceptional standard when no one else is doing so is more difficult.

00:26:57.432 --> 00:27:01.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Now as Christians, of course, that's simply part of the Christian life.

00:27:01.252 --> 00:27:05.232
<v SPEAKER_2>You are holding yourself to a higher standard than society.

00:27:05.232 --> 00:27:17.612
<v SPEAKER_2>But if society had higher, quite frankly, standards than we have today, it would be easier for everyone to live up to at least a better standard.

00:27:17.612 --> 00:27:20.112
<v SPEAKER_2>As things stand today, we have very few standards.

00:27:20.112 --> 00:27:26.292
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it is not hard to live up to a standard that is better than society generally.

00:27:26.292 --> 00:27:34.612
<v SPEAKER_2>But it is difficult to live up to a high standard because of the fact that we have so many competing, low standards in our society.

00:27:36.032 --> 00:27:40.652
<v SPEAKER_2>And then finally on this point, you have the psychology of the thing.

00:27:41.832 --> 00:28:01.652
<v SPEAKER_2>When you have these standards in society with regard to honor, and if you fall below them, shame and guilt, this helps you to form your identity as a member of society and simply as a man, as a human being.

00:28:01.652 --> 00:28:08.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Because you have these standards of behavior that feed into that formation.

00:28:08.092 --> 00:28:34.992
<v SPEAKER_2>If everything is open and everything is permissible, and there are no standards, there's no guidance, you wind up with this melee, this free for all, this chaos in which it is very difficult, particularly for young men, but really for everyone in society, to form this sort of core identity that is an important part of being a human being.

00:28:34.992 --> 00:28:39.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Because you need something on which to found that formation.

00:28:39.452 --> 00:28:48.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And part of that is having this sense of honor, and having these consequences if you do not live up to it.

00:28:48.192 --> 00:29:03.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And a part of that is self-regulation or self-control, which is a fundamental part of transitioning from a boy to a man, is learning that self-regulation, is learning that self-control.

00:29:03.832 --> 00:29:06.632
<v SPEAKER_2>That is part of what it means to be a man.

00:29:06.632 --> 00:29:11.452
<v SPEAKER_2>It is to bring yourself under control and to have self-discipline.

00:29:11.452 --> 00:29:23.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Society can help young men achieve that by having these guardrails, as it were, by having these standards to which the behavior of the young man can be conformed.

00:29:23.092 --> 00:29:27.252
<v SPEAKER_2>If there is no standard, then it is a lot more difficult.

00:29:27.252 --> 00:29:38.832
<v SPEAKER_2>That's one of the reasons that we see so many young men in our society today, just looking for anything, any sort of standard, any group to which they can belong, just someone give me some rules.

00:29:38.832 --> 00:29:43.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Someone give me a list of things to do and a list of things not to do.

00:29:43.252 --> 00:29:58.652
<v SPEAKER_2>If your society has that as a pervasive framework, it is much easier for young individuals in society to conform their behavior to those standards because they're well known and they're universal.

00:29:58.652 --> 00:30:04.112
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't have that today, which is one of many problems with our society.

00:30:04.112 --> 00:30:09.652
<v SPEAKER_2>And then finally, these can provide a source of motivation.

00:30:09.652 --> 00:30:38.732
<v SPEAKER_2>If you have a strong sense of honor in your society and these virtues that constitute what it means to be honorable, you have these standards that also constitute what it means to behave yourself in a way that is honorable, then there's an inbuilt motivation there to do those things, to avoid the things that the honor code says not to do, to do the things the honor code says to do.

00:30:38.732 --> 00:30:45.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And notably, I'm not using honor code in the sense it's often used in academia, although those are related concepts.

00:30:46.952 --> 00:30:58.692
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that motivation is just inherently there when you have a national, a civilizational standard of behavior, because you have a goal.

00:30:58.692 --> 00:31:01.432
<v SPEAKER_2>This is what men are supposed to do.

00:31:01.432 --> 00:31:02.932
<v SPEAKER_2>This is what a man will do.

00:31:02.932 --> 00:31:05.072
<v SPEAKER_2>This is what a man will not do.

00:31:05.072 --> 00:31:08.572
<v SPEAKER_2>The motivation there is to live up to that standard.

00:31:08.572 --> 00:31:11.432
<v SPEAKER_2>If you have no standards, where is the motivation?

00:31:11.852 --> 00:31:13.072
<v SPEAKER_2>There is no motivation.

00:31:13.072 --> 00:31:13.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Do whatever you want.

00:31:13.972 --> 00:31:15.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Make your own standard.

00:31:15.352 --> 00:31:22.612
<v SPEAKER_2>If your standard is eating Cheetos all day and sleeping in till three in the afternoon, well, you've lived up to your standard, and that's your standard.

00:31:22.612 --> 00:31:28.452
<v SPEAKER_2>And if there's no competing standard from society, who's to say that man is wrong?

00:31:28.452 --> 00:31:37.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, of course, we know from scripture and philosophy and any number of other sources, that is not a way to live one's life.

00:31:37.032 --> 00:31:39.852
<v SPEAKER_2>But you need standards in society.

00:31:40.312 --> 00:31:44.692
<v SPEAKER_2>You need rules to which individuals must comport their behavior.

00:31:44.692 --> 00:31:53.632
<v SPEAKER_2>If you do not have these things, then you have, in the words of scripture, every man doing what is right in his own eyes.

00:31:53.632 --> 00:31:59.072
<v SPEAKER_2>You have chaos, you have dysfunction, and you eventually have societal collapse.

00:31:59.072 --> 00:32:05.472
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not dealing with things that are ancillary or peripheral or unimportant.

00:32:05.472 --> 00:32:14.892
<v SPEAKER_2>These are things that are core necessities of human society, of the formation of any given individual.

00:32:14.892 --> 00:32:24.052
<v SPEAKER_2>These are things that are needed, not something that we can simply ignore or something that's interesting to discuss simply because it's interesting.

00:32:25.432 --> 00:32:31.592
<v SPEAKER_2>It's necessary to discuss these things because these things are themselves necessary.

00:32:31.592 --> 00:32:43.632
<v SPEAKER_2>If your society has no sense of honor, if your society has no sense of shame or guilt, if your society has no sense of duty, you don't really have a civilization.

00:32:43.632 --> 00:32:44.632
<v SPEAKER_2>You have a bazaar.

00:32:44.632 --> 00:32:53.432
<v SPEAKER_2>You have some sort of marketplace that it exists, but it's not something that we would call a culture or a society.

00:32:53.432 --> 00:32:54.032
<v SPEAKER_2>It's chaos.

00:32:54.032 --> 00:33:00.352
<v SPEAKER_2>It's every man for himself, which is certainly not what we should want as Christians, and it's not what we should want as men.

00:33:00.352 --> 00:33:03.912
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not what scripture says we should want, not what scripture says we should build.

00:33:03.912 --> 00:33:05.392
<v SPEAKER_2>It's certainly not what the commandments say.

00:33:06.192 --> 00:33:07.812
<v SPEAKER_2>The commandments deal with honor.

00:33:07.812 --> 00:33:11.172
<v SPEAKER_2>A number of them, we'll get into that later in the episode, I'm sure.

00:33:12.292 --> 00:33:22.872
<v SPEAKER_2>But these matters are of foundational and core importance, because these are the sorts of things that if you have them, you can build a society.

00:33:22.872 --> 00:33:26.032
<v SPEAKER_2>If you lose them, you lose society with them.

00:33:29.812 --> 00:33:37.232
<v SPEAKER_1>One of the chief mechanisms by which these standards are propagated is in their public enforcement.

00:33:37.232 --> 00:33:40.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, enforcement isn't necessarily negative.

00:33:40.612 --> 00:33:55.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Often, in the case of the glory, as Corey was describing, parades and things, for when Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong and the name, and no one remembers because he didn't walk on the moon, when they went there, they were honored with parades.

00:33:55.852 --> 00:34:01.532
<v SPEAKER_1>They were honored by the whole world for having done something that humanity had never done before.

00:34:01.532 --> 00:34:07.892
<v SPEAKER_1>So sometimes the example that's set is something that no one else can possibly achieve.

00:34:07.892 --> 00:34:09.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's fine because it's the benchmark.

00:34:09.852 --> 00:34:13.052
<v SPEAKER_1>Like this is the highest good that is achievable.

00:34:13.052 --> 00:34:14.632
<v SPEAKER_1>And so it becomes aspirational.

00:34:15.792 --> 00:34:24.612
<v SPEAKER_1>One of the interesting things I think about honor and shame as they work out in a society is that they have a polarity.

00:34:25.112 --> 00:34:32.712
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a concept that I've introduced several times in various scenarios where you have the subject, you have the verb, and you have the object.

00:34:32.712 --> 00:34:34.692
<v SPEAKER_1>There's a polarity through any sentence.

00:34:34.692 --> 00:34:39.952
<v SPEAKER_1>The subject's doing something to the direct object in a simple sentence.

00:34:39.952 --> 00:34:45.492
<v SPEAKER_1>We as a society choose to honor certain types of behavior that we want to reinforce.

00:34:45.492 --> 00:34:50.332
<v SPEAKER_1>So those standards that Corey was describing, we say, yes, more like this.

00:34:50.352 --> 00:34:56.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And the selection of the men whom we honor, it's usually men, not always.

00:34:56.312 --> 00:35:06.892
<v SPEAKER_1>There are many reasons why women should be honored, but they need to be tailored in such a way that you don't end up with Instagram fame.

00:35:06.892 --> 00:35:15.932
<v SPEAKER_1>There's honor that can be accorded to women that doesn't encourage them to go nuts, doesn't encourage them to put themselves in public more.

00:35:16.532 --> 00:35:22.832
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a particular aspect of the female psyche that we all see on display in the worst ways.

00:35:22.832 --> 00:35:25.832
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's not that girls are terrible, it's that that's one of their weaknesses.

00:35:25.832 --> 00:35:31.232
<v SPEAKER_1>Men have lots of other weaknesses, including falling for that crap and encouraging it when we shouldn't.

00:35:31.232 --> 00:35:39.232
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when you set a standard as a society, you have to draw a line and say, well, that's actually shameful behavior.

00:35:39.232 --> 00:35:46.372
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, there's few things that you can say about a man or a woman that's more insulting than that guy is shameless.

00:35:46.372 --> 00:35:48.212
<v SPEAKER_1>That's shameless behavior.

00:35:48.212 --> 00:35:48.812
<v SPEAKER_1>What is that saying?

00:35:48.812 --> 00:35:50.072
<v SPEAKER_1>It's saying there's no floor.

00:35:50.112 --> 00:35:52.972
<v SPEAKER_1>It's saying there's nothing that that sort of person won't do.

00:35:52.972 --> 00:35:54.592
<v SPEAKER_1>They have no off switch.

00:35:54.592 --> 00:35:58.572
<v SPEAKER_1>If someone is shameless, it's just whatever they can get away with.

00:35:58.572 --> 00:36:06.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And so on one hand, glorifying honor, on the other hand, enforcing shame draws lines and say, you're not going to go there.

00:36:06.592 --> 00:36:13.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the polarity that I was mentioning is that the culture says, we're going to honor an individual as an example.

00:36:13.432 --> 00:36:15.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Here's a guy that's a benchmark.

00:36:15.252 --> 00:36:22.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Buzz Aldrin is a benchmark for personal scientific performance achievement, whatever.

00:36:22.152 --> 00:36:24.212
<v SPEAKER_1>Millions of kids wanted to become astronauts.

00:36:24.212 --> 00:36:26.112
<v SPEAKER_1>I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid.

00:36:26.112 --> 00:36:28.292
<v SPEAKER_1>I wanted to be an astronaut until I was about 10 and got glasses.

00:36:28.292 --> 00:36:33.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Like, can't be a pilot, can't be an astronaut, because that's the way it was at the time.

00:36:33.392 --> 00:36:41.912
<v SPEAKER_1>But setting that benchmark and giving that sort of honor to those men tells everybody else, it's a price signal to the market, effectively.

00:36:41.912 --> 00:36:44.472
<v SPEAKER_1>If you want to talk like a libertarian, that's what it is.

00:36:44.472 --> 00:36:45.552
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a price signal.

00:36:45.552 --> 00:36:49.112
<v SPEAKER_1>You're saying, this is what we're going to reward or this is what we're going to punish.

00:36:49.112 --> 00:36:50.852
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, we talk about honor and shame.

00:36:50.852 --> 00:36:55.572
<v SPEAKER_1>The mechanisms pretty much work the same way, just in opposite directions.

00:36:55.572 --> 00:37:08.572
<v SPEAKER_1>So polarity-wise, when a culture says, we're going to honor this sort of behavior, and then they select an individual and say, we're going to honor this man for exemplifying this sort of behavior, the individual is the terminus of the honor.

00:37:08.572 --> 00:37:09.932
<v SPEAKER_1>He's the recipient.

00:37:09.932 --> 00:37:18.492
<v SPEAKER_1>So, you know, there's a Christian organization that Corey and I are aware of, that every year they honor a man who has been a bold confessor for his whole life.

00:37:18.492 --> 00:37:29.032
<v SPEAKER_1>He's been showing up for decades, demonstrating Christian teaching and confession of the faith publicly, and whatever is appropriate for that scenario.

00:37:29.032 --> 00:37:30.872
<v SPEAKER_1>And he's singled out and honored.

00:37:30.872 --> 00:37:33.552
<v SPEAKER_1>And once a year they say, this is a guy, we're honoring him.

00:37:33.552 --> 00:37:37.472
<v SPEAKER_1>We're doing a really good job at the stuff that we all aspire to.

00:37:37.472 --> 00:37:43.272
<v SPEAKER_1>When an individual is selected for honors, there's a second aspect that kicks in, or for shame.

00:37:43.272 --> 00:37:45.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, it's going to apply in either direction.

00:37:45.172 --> 00:37:51.192
<v SPEAKER_1>When you honor a man, when the culture honors a man, says this guy right here, Buzz Aldrin, we want more guys like Buzz Aldrin.

00:37:51.192 --> 00:38:05.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Even knowing that of, I don't know how many billions of people on the planet at that time, probably four or five billion, there were only a handful of guys that could have gone through the process to be in a position to do what those guys did.

00:38:05.292 --> 00:38:11.392
<v SPEAKER_1>When the honor is accorded by a culture, there's then a second aspect that's more invisible to us.

00:38:11.392 --> 00:38:14.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We don't think about it as much, but it's equally prevalent.

00:38:14.692 --> 00:38:18.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And you'll see it in those individuals in those moments.

00:38:18.072 --> 00:38:21.532
<v SPEAKER_1>I think a simpler one that, you know, I've said before, I'm a big fight fan.

00:38:21.532 --> 00:38:23.852
<v SPEAKER_1>I really enjoy UFC.

00:38:23.852 --> 00:38:32.912
<v SPEAKER_1>When there's a man in the ring, two men in the ring, two enter, one leaves, at least one leaves as honor, they're both honored for being fighters and for showing up and doing something.

00:38:32.912 --> 00:38:37.132
<v SPEAKER_1>It's incredibly difficult, but there's certainly greater honor accorded to the winner.

00:38:37.132 --> 00:38:41.492
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, especially if he's declared a champion, he gets the belt.

00:38:41.492 --> 00:39:00.332
<v SPEAKER_1>When you have this entire machinery of the entire fight industry and all the people, the promoters, and all the stuff that are going into getting the guy to that point, when he receives the belt, although there's only one belt and it's for one man, there's only one name that's in the record books, everyone around him is also honored.

00:39:00.332 --> 00:39:02.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Not everyone in the world, but his crew.

00:39:02.472 --> 00:39:12.572
<v SPEAKER_1>So after they win, his trainer's in there, the guys he's sparring with, nutritionist maybe, in some cases a cut man's part, they're all a vital part of a team.

00:39:12.572 --> 00:39:17.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Because even though it's an individual achievement, it took a bunch of people to make that happen.

00:39:17.492 --> 00:39:19.112
<v SPEAKER_1>He couldn't have done it by himself.

00:39:19.112 --> 00:39:36.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And so they're always, generally not always, they're usually very appropriately humble about the only way that they got out there was that their family, their friends, their trainers, their coaches, everybody, hundreds of people maybe in their lives have contributed to them being able to have that kind of performance.

00:39:36.132 --> 00:39:51.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when they're a court of that honor, they put on the belt and they show it off and they take their selfies and stuff, they pull their crew in, they pull some other guys in and they usually give them shout outs to family and to God and coaches and whomever to say, it wasn't just me.

00:39:51.052 --> 00:39:58.272
<v SPEAKER_1>You are recording me honor for having won and for being a champion, but a whole bunch of people were involved.

00:39:58.272 --> 00:40:01.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the principal honor goes to the guy holding the belt.

00:40:01.132 --> 00:40:02.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Like he won the championship.

00:40:02.772 --> 00:40:04.892
<v SPEAKER_1>No one else's names are going to be remembered.

00:40:04.892 --> 00:40:07.232
<v SPEAKER_1>No one else's names are going to be in the record book.

00:40:07.232 --> 00:40:12.352
<v SPEAKER_1>But he appropriately acknowledges that that honor belongs to all of them to a lesser degree.

00:40:12.352 --> 00:40:15.892
<v SPEAKER_1>The principal, the lion's share of the honor goes to the champion.

00:40:15.892 --> 00:40:25.492
<v SPEAKER_1>But you know, if he has a particular gym that he's been working out at and his coach was instrumental in getting him to that point, that coach has a lot of honor.

00:40:25.492 --> 00:40:32.572
<v SPEAKER_1>A lot of guys who are up-and-comers want to go there because they want to participate in the sort of program that's going to generate champions.

00:40:32.572 --> 00:40:37.972
<v SPEAKER_1>And so everyone shares in his immediate circle in the glory that he receives.

00:40:37.972 --> 00:40:40.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And the exact same thing is true in the reverse.

00:40:40.372 --> 00:40:55.592
<v SPEAKER_1>When someone is shamed, when someone is singled out and says this is the worst low life imaginable, you know, and hip pieces are published and people are screaming how evil someone is, that tells everyone in his circle, you're garbage too, if you don't flee.

00:40:55.592 --> 00:41:06.112
<v SPEAKER_1>You need to get outside of the blast radius of this subhuman piece of crap because all of the hatred of the world is being poured out on this shameful man for the shameful things that he does.

00:41:06.112 --> 00:41:07.432
<v SPEAKER_1>So the mechanism is identical.

00:41:08.032 --> 00:41:10.392
<v SPEAKER_1>It's just the effect.

00:41:10.392 --> 00:41:17.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Either everybody wants to be your friend when you're the champion or everybody wants to get away from you, pretend they ever even knew you in the first place.

00:41:17.012 --> 00:41:21.592
<v SPEAKER_1>They won't even acknowledge your name if you're the one who's targeted for shaming.

00:41:21.592 --> 00:41:23.352
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, that's not inherently a bad thing.

00:41:23.352 --> 00:41:25.672
<v SPEAKER_1>There are plenty of things that should be shameful.

00:41:25.672 --> 00:41:31.152
<v SPEAKER_1>The question, particularly for a Christian society, is what do we declare to be shameful?

00:41:31.152 --> 00:41:38.512
<v SPEAKER_1>There's a whole lot of things that the Bible says to do or says not to do, that is a culture we just don't care about.

00:41:38.512 --> 00:41:39.932
<v SPEAKER_1>We don't care at all.

00:41:39.932 --> 00:41:48.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And then there are other things that God is either silent about, in some cases either commands or condemns, where the world at large is like, nah, forget that.

00:41:48.192 --> 00:41:49.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Here's what's shameful.

00:41:49.332 --> 00:41:50.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Here's what's honorable.

00:41:50.892 --> 00:42:08.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And then, you know, one of the cheap shot examples, but I think a prime one is the sort of e-celeb stuff that we see on Instagram and TikTok and whatever's popular in any particular era, where you have guys that are flashy, girls who are blingy, or they're, you know, it's not like a boomer talking like that.

00:42:08.192 --> 00:42:09.272
<v SPEAKER_1>You know what I mean.

00:42:09.272 --> 00:42:14.412
<v SPEAKER_1>People are ostentatious in disgusting ways.

00:42:14.452 --> 00:42:21.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Like, if they were actually rich, it's usually related to either sexuality or to riches.

00:42:21.132 --> 00:42:22.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And usually both.

00:42:22.312 --> 00:42:29.912
<v SPEAKER_1>The more of both things that you can display at once, the more honorable they're pretending that society sees you to be.

00:42:29.912 --> 00:42:31.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And for the most part, society goes along with it.

00:42:32.252 --> 00:42:34.732
<v SPEAKER_1>There are some people who grumble and say, well, that's gross, we shouldn't do that.

00:42:34.732 --> 00:42:40.052
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, put something on, show a little bit of modesty in the way you approach life.

00:42:40.052 --> 00:42:43.552
<v SPEAKER_1>But most people, certainly younger people, are more impressionable.

00:42:43.552 --> 00:42:50.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Even if aesthetically, maybe they're not attracted to it, they see everyone else looking at it and saying, yeah, this is the path.

00:42:50.272 --> 00:42:53.792
<v SPEAKER_1>More money, I'm going to talk the way they talk, you know what I'm talking about.

00:42:53.792 --> 00:42:59.992
<v SPEAKER_1>It's more of things that aren't actually good for society and less of the things that we should have.

00:43:02.112 --> 00:43:11.012
<v SPEAKER_1>There's very few people who are glorifying family formation and doing a good job at work and helping your neighbors.

00:43:11.012 --> 00:43:13.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Like boring stuff, that's boring.

00:43:13.352 --> 00:43:15.672
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not sexy, that's not exciting.

00:43:15.672 --> 00:43:24.592
<v SPEAKER_1>It's vitally important and it is a blessing and it is exciting in moments when you're doing it as a man or a woman, but it's not the sort of thing that's flashy.

00:43:24.592 --> 00:43:32.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Now it's, for better or worse, particularly on social media, now there are people who are becoming influencers, specifically pitching those things.

00:43:32.632 --> 00:43:37.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And so they get millions of followers for cooking everything from scratch for their kids or whatever.

00:43:37.192 --> 00:43:38.372
<v SPEAKER_1>It's an improvement.

00:43:38.372 --> 00:43:43.472
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't know if it's the solution, but like at least the right things are being glorified.

00:43:43.472 --> 00:43:46.352
<v SPEAKER_1>For better or worse, that's the way people's views are shaped.

00:43:46.352 --> 00:44:06.252
<v SPEAKER_1>This is what we're honoring and unfortunately, and it's dire, but in the social media oriented mentality that drives much of the world today, at least in the West, whoever's getting the most views, getting the most likes, the most replies, whatever, that is seen as the perception of honor.

00:44:06.252 --> 00:44:09.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Even if there's some scandal, even if there's something like, you know, some people are criticizing it.

00:44:09.732 --> 00:44:12.352
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that there's buzz is itself a kind of honor.

00:44:12.352 --> 00:44:14.312
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the thing that people are talking about.

00:44:14.312 --> 00:44:27.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if somebody wants to emulate that, they're going to be like, whatever was getting the most attention, you know, in an attention driven economy, the attention itself becomes the capital of what is perceived as honor.

00:44:27.072 --> 00:44:32.212
<v SPEAKER_1>That's deeply broken, because it's very easy to get attention by being awful.

00:44:32.212 --> 00:44:35.032
<v SPEAKER_1>It's harder to get attention for doing good things.

00:44:35.032 --> 00:44:42.192
<v SPEAKER_1>It's nice that that's starting to come back a little bit, even if again, I don't know if it's a good thing, but it's certainly an improvement.

00:44:42.192 --> 00:44:53.592
<v SPEAKER_1>If there are pretty girls who are in a kitchen, who are married, who are cooking for their kids, and encouraging others to do that, because it sets a good example, it's way down on my list of things to even worry about.

00:44:54.392 --> 00:44:59.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Because there are so many problems in the world where things that are shameful aren't treated that way.

00:44:59.452 --> 00:45:06.792
<v SPEAKER_1>So just remember, as you're thinking about the mechanism of honor and shame, there are those two aspects.

00:45:06.792 --> 00:45:16.792
<v SPEAKER_1>There's the societal aspect directing to an individual, and then there's the splash effects, whether it's splash benefit or the splash damage to everyone around the individual.

00:45:16.792 --> 00:45:22.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Because when a man is set up to be an example for everybody, in a lot of cases, it wrecks most men.

00:45:23.492 --> 00:45:28.572
<v SPEAKER_1>Most men who have done good things, when suddenly a whole bunch of attention is shown on them.

00:45:28.572 --> 00:45:32.432
<v SPEAKER_1>Like fame is itself a corrupting and twisted thing.

00:45:32.432 --> 00:45:37.412
<v SPEAKER_1>It's, I mean, not that I'm going to be famous, but one of the reasons I'm still pseudonymous is I don't want attention.

00:45:37.412 --> 00:45:39.812
<v SPEAKER_1>I like to vanish as soon as possible.

00:45:39.812 --> 00:45:42.572
<v SPEAKER_1>The idea of standing up and like, oh, look at me.

00:45:42.572 --> 00:45:44.652
<v SPEAKER_1>It's inherently corrupting to any man.

00:45:44.652 --> 00:45:55.532
<v SPEAKER_1>And usually when a man, for other reasons, is put in the center of honor, and then everyone wants to talk to him and interview him, a lot of times the guys are not particularly good at talking or they're shy or whatever.

00:45:55.532 --> 00:45:59.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And if people keep hounding them, sometimes they kind of fall apart.

00:45:59.692 --> 00:46:02.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And then people start digging into their lives, like, oh, he's not that great.

00:46:02.692 --> 00:46:10.232
<v SPEAKER_1>And then they want to tear him down because as soon as someone's given a bunch of honor, vultures want to come in and say, well, let's find the dirt.

00:46:10.232 --> 00:46:13.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Let's find the nastiest stuff about this guy who walked on the moon.

00:46:13.672 --> 00:46:15.452
<v SPEAKER_1>We want to tear him down.

00:46:15.452 --> 00:46:16.232
<v SPEAKER_1>He's just like us.

00:46:16.232 --> 00:46:17.632
<v SPEAKER_1>He's nothing.

00:46:17.632 --> 00:46:20.052
<v SPEAKER_1>It's perverted to treat people that way.

00:46:20.052 --> 00:46:21.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Everybody has problems.

00:46:21.132 --> 00:46:23.532
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't need to go digging into it.

00:46:23.532 --> 00:46:37.552
<v SPEAKER_1>Just remember that whenever you are participating in any sort of mass collective adulation or a program, if you're cheering or if you're shouting down an individual, it doesn't end with that person.

00:46:37.552 --> 00:46:40.672
<v SPEAKER_1>It splashes to everyone around them.

00:46:40.672 --> 00:46:48.612
<v SPEAKER_1>So if you want to honor people who are doing trashy, terrible things, everyone around them is going to glom onto that and more people are going to want a piece of it.

00:46:49.212 --> 00:46:54.292
<v SPEAKER_1>If, on the other hand, you want to shame certain things, just know it's going to blow up everybody around them.

00:46:54.332 --> 00:46:57.572
<v SPEAKER_1>In the case of honor, people want to glom onto it.

00:46:57.572 --> 00:46:59.792
<v SPEAKER_1>In the case of shame, people want to flee.

00:46:59.792 --> 00:47:06.232
<v SPEAKER_1>So when you do that, no, you're not just talking about principles and ideas and whatever somebody has done.

00:47:06.232 --> 00:47:08.772
<v SPEAKER_1>You're changing somebody's life one way or another.

00:47:08.772 --> 00:47:11.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And you have that power, even as an individual.

00:47:11.612 --> 00:47:22.332
<v SPEAKER_1>When you like or repost or talk about something that's gross and disgusting, you're either shaming it or you're saying, yeah, look how much attention this will get.

00:47:22.332 --> 00:47:36.672
<v SPEAKER_1>In either case, our attention is fueling the very machinery of what should be culturally useful, but it's been so far divorced from morality, from God, from any actual decent standards, that it's really taken on a life of its own.

00:47:36.672 --> 00:47:43.252
<v SPEAKER_1>And I think one of the things that we need to do as individuals is be aware of our participation, whatever it is.

00:47:43.252 --> 00:47:53.932
<v SPEAKER_1>If we are participating in things that are devouring and tearing people down, because they made a mistake, they said something stupid, like that guy needs to be destroyed forever.

00:47:53.932 --> 00:47:57.732
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not the sort of thing that you would ever want pointed at you.

00:47:57.732 --> 00:48:03.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And I can assure you as an individual who's been on the receiving end of that, that most people cannot handle it.

00:48:03.512 --> 00:48:04.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Some can, but most can't.

00:48:04.952 --> 00:48:06.252
<v SPEAKER_1>And no one should have to.

00:48:06.252 --> 00:48:11.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Like forget whether somebody survives that sort of torment, that sort of shaming.

00:48:11.632 --> 00:48:15.312
<v SPEAKER_1>If it's something that actually needs to be treated that way, that's one thing.

00:48:15.312 --> 00:48:16.972
<v SPEAKER_1>And so that's where the moral stuff comes in.

00:48:16.972 --> 00:48:19.632
<v SPEAKER_1>That's where the true religion comes in.

00:48:19.632 --> 00:48:25.592
<v SPEAKER_1>There are certain things that are absolutely morally indefensible and must be.

00:48:25.592 --> 00:48:26.952
<v SPEAKER_1>You got to hound people out of town.

00:48:26.952 --> 00:48:28.352
<v SPEAKER_1>I have no problem with that.

00:48:28.372 --> 00:48:29.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Absolutely none.

00:48:29.832 --> 00:48:35.912
<v SPEAKER_1>If something deserves it, you're going to find me at the front of the line, piling on to something that's despicable.

00:48:35.912 --> 00:48:39.432
<v SPEAKER_1>But the question is always, what is actually despicable?

00:48:39.432 --> 00:48:41.592
<v SPEAKER_1>What is actually intolerable?

00:48:41.592 --> 00:48:49.912
<v SPEAKER_1>And as Christians, we can't have our threshold for what we honor or what we despise be defined by MSNBC.

00:48:49.912 --> 00:49:00.212
<v SPEAKER_1>If your HR department finds the same things despicable as you, you're not treating things as a Christian would treat things when they're despicable or honorable.

00:49:00.212 --> 00:49:03.052
<v SPEAKER_1>It's one of the very basic ideas of Stone Choir.

00:49:03.052 --> 00:49:05.232
<v SPEAKER_1>Where are you getting this stuff from?

00:49:05.232 --> 00:49:13.632
<v SPEAKER_1>The genealogy of the idea of what I'm going to honor or what I'm going to despise and call shameful, either it's coming from God or it's coming from the world.

00:49:13.632 --> 00:49:14.772
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the bottom line.

00:49:14.772 --> 00:49:20.932
<v SPEAKER_1>We could tack that comment generically onto almost all of our episodes, because it's the same thing over and over again.

00:49:20.932 --> 00:49:31.232
<v SPEAKER_1>So much of what we see in the world is not honoring that, which is actually godly and decent, and is not actually shaming the things that are ungodly and wicked.

00:49:31.232 --> 00:49:36.232
<v SPEAKER_1>How many men are shamed for despising the Christian creeds?

00:49:36.232 --> 00:49:37.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Nobody.

00:49:37.132 --> 00:49:40.892
<v SPEAKER_1>You despise the Trinity, you blaspheme Christ.

00:49:40.892 --> 00:49:50.732
<v SPEAKER_1>You're never going to be doxxed and shamed or any of the worst treatment that we muster for people who say things that are completely outside of Christian doctrine.

00:49:50.732 --> 00:49:51.712
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not bizarre.

00:49:51.712 --> 00:49:53.052
<v SPEAKER_1>It's entirely predictable.

00:49:53.052 --> 00:49:55.472
<v SPEAKER_1>It's something that's prophesied in the New Testament.

00:49:55.472 --> 00:50:00.852
<v SPEAKER_1>This is how things are going to go when hearts are growing cold and when the church is falling away.

00:50:00.852 --> 00:50:05.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And so part of the reason for this exhortation is, look, where are you getting this stuff from?

00:50:06.112 --> 00:50:11.752
<v SPEAKER_1>You should be honoring that which God says to honor, and we should be shaming that which God says to shame.

00:50:11.752 --> 00:50:14.072
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not the doing of these things that's bad.

00:50:14.072 --> 00:50:21.812
<v SPEAKER_1>Even though some of the examples we gave earlier from Rome and Greece and other completely pagan societies, the mechanism is good.

00:50:21.812 --> 00:50:23.912
<v SPEAKER_1>The mechanism is godly.

00:50:23.912 --> 00:50:33.892
<v SPEAKER_1>The rules themselves, the rule set that you plug into the mechanism to decide who gets the honor and who gets the shame, that's where the judgment of the Christian mind comes in.

00:50:33.892 --> 00:50:37.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And if you're not getting it from God, you're still going to be doing it.

00:50:37.192 --> 00:50:38.452
<v SPEAKER_1>That's one of the lessons here.

00:50:38.452 --> 00:50:41.652
<v SPEAKER_1>We all do this intrinsically because it's human behavior.

00:50:41.652 --> 00:50:48.772
<v SPEAKER_1>What we honor, if it's not informed by God, it's still going to be honored by the ambient morality of this depraved world.

00:50:48.772 --> 00:50:53.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And the things that we shame are going to be the things that are sins against new global religion.

00:50:53.392 --> 00:50:55.952
<v SPEAKER_1>They'll not be the things that are shameful in God's eyes.

00:50:55.952 --> 00:51:00.192
<v SPEAKER_1>They'll be shameful in the eyes of the people who anchor CNN.

00:51:00.192 --> 00:51:05.152
<v SPEAKER_1>If that's the way you want to live your life, that's the way you're going to live your afterlife.

00:51:06.532 --> 00:51:16.092
<v SPEAKER_2>I want to return briefly, as it were, to the issue of the difference between male honor and female honor.

00:51:16.092 --> 00:51:25.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And not just because I know we have a number of female listeners, but obviously every single man in the audience has a mother.

00:51:25.192 --> 00:51:29.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Many have wives, daughters, women who are important to them.

00:51:29.572 --> 00:51:36.292
<v SPEAKER_2>And every woman in our nation should be important to you, obviously, depending on how closely related to you they are.

00:51:36.292 --> 00:51:40.332
<v SPEAKER_2>It will be at different degrees, but nonetheless important to you.

00:51:40.332 --> 00:51:45.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it matters the difference between male honor and female honor.

00:51:45.132 --> 00:51:54.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Women sort of have an advantage over men when it comes to the starting conditions, as it were, with regard to honor.

00:51:56.232 --> 00:52:10.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Because outside of due honor that is inherited, that is given to a man by virtue of his rank or his station, men have to earn honor.

00:52:10.072 --> 00:52:14.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Men have to do things in order to receive honor.

00:52:15.432 --> 00:52:17.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Women do not.

00:52:17.832 --> 00:52:25.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Because by virtue of her sex, woman is granted a sort of honor as a starting condition.

00:52:25.972 --> 00:52:31.112
<v SPEAKER_2>And so, for women, it is a matter of maintaining that honor.

00:52:31.112 --> 00:52:35.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, a woman can also earn honor by doing the things that are befitting her sex.

00:52:35.932 --> 00:52:43.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And so, a woman who has and raises godly children, who keeps a godly home, who is submissive to her husband.

00:52:43.752 --> 00:52:47.652
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm saying all the things that are required by the laws of God, of course.

00:52:48.172 --> 00:52:53.172
<v SPEAKER_2>The woman who does these things does by them earn honor.

00:52:54.772 --> 00:53:02.332
<v SPEAKER_2>But women have that starting position of by virtue of their sex, having a sort of honor.

00:53:02.332 --> 00:53:06.432
<v SPEAKER_2>There is a due honor with regard to the female sex.

00:53:07.752 --> 00:53:09.672
<v SPEAKER_2>But it can be lost.

00:53:09.672 --> 00:53:13.312
<v SPEAKER_2>And part of this is very much a matter of chastity.

00:53:13.312 --> 00:53:22.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And there's a reason that historically, we have had a secondary sense of a woman's honor as being her chastity.

00:53:23.672 --> 00:53:24.712
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not for nothing.

00:53:24.712 --> 00:53:28.072
<v SPEAKER_2>That is an accurate representation of the reality.

00:53:29.712 --> 00:53:32.852
<v SPEAKER_2>A woman is to be loyal to her husband.

00:53:34.312 --> 00:53:42.492
<v SPEAKER_2>That matter of chastity, that matter of faithfulness is a matter of honor.

00:53:42.492 --> 00:53:48.352
<v SPEAKER_2>If she is loyal to her husband, if she is loyal to her family, she maintains that honor.

00:53:48.352 --> 00:53:51.352
<v SPEAKER_2>So she starts with it and can maintain it.

00:53:51.352 --> 00:53:53.252
<v SPEAKER_2>It can, again, be lost.

00:53:53.252 --> 00:53:55.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And we all know the ways in which it can be lost.

00:53:56.992 --> 00:54:08.912
<v SPEAKER_2>The disadvantage for the female sex is that her honor once lost cannot be regained because it is something that is a physical factual change.

00:54:10.272 --> 00:54:25.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Often, when a man does something that is dishonorable, he can atone for it because there are ways in which society has rituals, or in the Christian concept, it is repentance.

00:54:25.352 --> 00:54:29.192
<v SPEAKER_2>A man can regain his honor, perhaps not to the same degree.

00:54:29.192 --> 00:54:34.812
<v SPEAKER_2>He may have lost something that cannot be regained, but often a man can regain his honor.

00:54:36.352 --> 00:54:47.112
<v SPEAKER_2>Part of the reason for that is, of course, that a man again earns his honor, and so he is re-earning it, whereas a woman starts with it and can lose it.

00:54:47.112 --> 00:54:51.672
<v SPEAKER_2>To be clear, I'm not saying that woman cannot repent and be forgiven for her sins.

00:54:51.672 --> 00:54:52.492
<v SPEAKER_2>These are different things.

00:54:52.492 --> 00:54:55.452
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not dealing with repentance.

00:54:55.452 --> 00:54:56.972
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not dealing with justification.

00:54:56.972 --> 00:54:58.632
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not dealing with sanctification.

00:54:58.632 --> 00:55:03.052
<v SPEAKER_2>We are dealing with shame and honor and guilt.

00:55:03.472 --> 00:55:04.852
<v SPEAKER_2>They're related.

00:55:04.852 --> 00:55:19.852
<v SPEAKER_2>These things are very obviously related, because of course that internal honor again is based on the moral law, whether or not you have lived up to it, whether or not your conscience accuses you because of the things that you have done or failed to do.

00:55:19.852 --> 00:55:23.092
<v SPEAKER_2>But they are not identical concepts.

00:55:23.092 --> 00:55:33.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And so honor can be lost permanently in this life, particularly for women, whereas yes, you can be forgiven for the sins.

00:55:33.432 --> 00:55:41.872
<v SPEAKER_2>But there are consequences of sin, and the consequences in this life cannot always be undone, often cannot be undone.

00:55:41.872 --> 00:55:50.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And so with regard to honor, again, woman has a sort of advantage, because her starting position is one of due honor.

00:55:51.532 --> 00:55:54.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Because the woman who is chaste has due honor.

00:55:55.172 --> 00:55:59.752
<v SPEAKER_2>The wife who remains chaste has due honor.

00:55:59.752 --> 00:56:02.372
<v SPEAKER_2>It can only be lost.

00:56:02.372 --> 00:56:12.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Whereas the man again has to earn honor by his actions, with the minor exception, as it were, of due honor according to Ranker Station.

00:56:12.352 --> 00:56:21.952
<v SPEAKER_2>But to emphasize again, and to expand on what Woe was just saying, with regard to the two types of honor, as it were.

00:56:21.952 --> 00:56:25.952
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, I'm speaking of the internal and external, not earned versus due.

00:56:27.052 --> 00:56:28.972
<v SPEAKER_2>But you need both.

00:56:28.972 --> 00:56:35.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And what I mean by that is that you have to have your conscience formed by the Word of God.

00:56:35.872 --> 00:56:44.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Your conscience, your internal moral compass, must be formed by and conformed to the things of God.

00:56:44.732 --> 00:56:47.312
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that is your internal honor.

00:56:47.312 --> 00:56:51.692
<v SPEAKER_2>That is the internal check on your behavior, your thoughts and everything else.

00:56:53.112 --> 00:57:04.872
<v SPEAKER_2>It will accuse you when you transgress, but it will also reward you when you comport yourself with the moral law, when you are true to the moral law.

00:57:07.172 --> 00:57:12.972
<v SPEAKER_2>With regard to your external honor, you need a godly society.

00:57:12.972 --> 00:57:29.452
<v SPEAKER_2>And so with regard to the internal honor, your conscience, you need a godly conscience formed according to God's Word, but with regard to external things, you need a godly society that will shame you when you transgress.

00:57:29.452 --> 00:57:37.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And so internally, honor is a matter of guilt, because it is your conscience accusing you of sin, driving you to repentance.

00:57:40.172 --> 00:57:53.192
<v SPEAKER_2>In a society where things are properly formed, properly structured and properly enforced, you will have a godly shame that is inflicted on those who transgress the moral law.

00:57:53.192 --> 00:57:56.212
<v SPEAKER_2>This is what we should want as Christians.

00:57:56.212 --> 00:57:59.512
<v SPEAKER_2>This is what we should attempt to build.

00:57:59.512 --> 00:58:01.972
<v SPEAKER_2>These are the things to which we should aspire.

00:58:03.252 --> 00:58:13.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if you have these things properly structured, if you have these safeguards, you have these standards in place, it helps everyone to live a Christian life.

00:58:13.452 --> 00:58:17.192
<v SPEAKER_2>This is one of the overarching goals of Christian nationalism.

00:58:17.732 --> 00:58:22.672
<v SPEAKER_2>This is one of the overarching goals of any man who is a true Christian.

00:58:22.672 --> 00:58:29.312
<v SPEAKER_2>You want to build a Christian society because it helps those in your society to remain Christian.

00:58:29.312 --> 00:58:41.912
<v SPEAKER_2>It is much easier to be a Christian, to behave as a Christian, to run the race successfully in a Christian nation than it is in a heathen one or an apostate one.

00:58:41.912 --> 00:58:48.292
<v SPEAKER_2>If you are the only Christian in a city, that is a terrible position in which to find yourself.

00:58:48.292 --> 00:58:53.432
<v SPEAKER_2>I know that some modern pastors will say, well, think of all the evangelization opportunities.

00:58:53.432 --> 00:58:58.812
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I mean, yes, those are there to some degree, but you're living in a horrible situation.

00:58:58.812 --> 00:59:00.572
<v SPEAKER_2>You want the example of that from scripture?

00:59:00.572 --> 00:59:03.272
<v SPEAKER_2>It's Lot living in Sodom.

00:59:03.272 --> 00:59:05.952
<v SPEAKER_2>Was that a great opportunity for him?

00:59:05.952 --> 00:59:08.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Should he have rejoiced for living there?

00:59:08.412 --> 00:59:10.492
<v SPEAKER_2>No, of course not.

00:59:10.492 --> 00:59:17.712
<v SPEAKER_2>That is a terrible situation in which to find yourself, and it is difficult to remain Christian under those conditions.

00:59:17.712 --> 00:59:20.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Some men will, some men won't.

00:59:20.192 --> 00:59:25.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Depends on the measure of your faith, the strength of your faith, the security of your faith.

00:59:25.032 --> 00:59:30.492
<v SPEAKER_2>And of course, you should remain in God's Word and pray and endeavor to keep that faith strong and secure.

00:59:30.492 --> 00:59:37.092
<v SPEAKER_2>So even if you live through those sorts of trials, you will remain steadfast to the end.

00:59:37.092 --> 00:59:52.072
<v SPEAKER_2>But the fact remains, in a Christian society, more men are going to be Christian and remain Christian than if they live in a heathen, apostate, atheist, pagan, whatever it happens to be, society.

00:59:53.692 --> 01:00:02.312
<v SPEAKER_2>And so we should endeavor to build the systems that will not only produce Christians, but help them to maintain their faith.

01:00:03.332 --> 01:00:19.732
<v SPEAKER_2>This is not a matter of focusing on the things of this world, or a matter of focusing on the temporal, or whatever the accusations are that are constantly flung at those who advocate for Christian nationalism.

01:00:19.732 --> 01:00:29.092
<v SPEAKER_2>This is a matter of eternal things, because these are matters of whether or not men persevere in the faith.

01:00:29.092 --> 01:00:31.772
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you need God's word.

01:00:31.772 --> 01:00:33.672
<v SPEAKER_2>You need good preaching.

01:00:33.672 --> 01:00:47.172
<v SPEAKER_2>You need good teaching, because those are the things that form your conscience so that when you transgress, because of course you will sin in this life, but when you transgress, your conscience will accuse you.

01:00:47.172 --> 01:00:50.172
<v SPEAKER_2>That internal sense of honor will be pricked.

01:00:50.172 --> 01:00:51.892
<v SPEAKER_2>It will be triggered.

01:00:51.892 --> 01:00:57.212
<v SPEAKER_2>But you also need that external guard, that check on your behavior.

01:00:57.212 --> 01:00:58.512
<v SPEAKER_2>You need shame.

01:00:58.512 --> 01:01:01.032
<v SPEAKER_2>And that requires a godly society.

01:01:02.872 --> 01:01:05.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Both of those are important.

01:01:05.492 --> 01:01:11.012
<v SPEAKER_2>I won't say necessary, because they're not truly necessary in the philosophical sense.

01:01:11.012 --> 01:01:17.932
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't intend to make this a philosophy podcast, although obviously we have to delve into it with episodes like this one.

01:01:17.932 --> 01:01:27.332
<v SPEAKER_2>But I will say that it is a very important matter with regard to both of those aspects, because they are self-reinforcing, and they are also a feedback loop.

01:01:27.332 --> 01:01:29.412
<v SPEAKER_2>The one enforces the other.

01:01:29.412 --> 01:01:41.732
<v SPEAKER_2>If you have a godly conscience, formed according to God's word, that will help you to remain Christian, to persevere, that will help you to remain steadfast in the faith.

01:01:41.732 --> 01:01:50.852
<v SPEAKER_2>But if you also have a society that is Christian, that shames you when you transgress, that helps you to form your conscience.

01:01:50.852 --> 01:02:00.392
<v SPEAKER_2>If you act as a Christian in society, that helps you to form society, to have that rightful standard by which it shames behavior.

01:02:00.392 --> 01:02:03.132
<v SPEAKER_2>All of these things reinforce each other.

01:02:03.132 --> 01:02:08.872
<v SPEAKER_2>It's just like when you build some important structure, even just a house.

01:02:08.872 --> 01:02:11.852
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't have one form of support.

01:02:11.852 --> 01:02:17.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if you have one form of support, when a storm comes through, your house falls on you.

01:02:17.792 --> 01:02:23.252
<v SPEAKER_2>You have various systems that work together to ensure the structure remains sound.

01:02:23.252 --> 01:02:30.292
<v SPEAKER_2>The same thing is true with regard to Christian groups, Christian organizations, all the way up to Christian nations.

01:02:31.152 --> 01:02:39.592
<v SPEAKER_2>You want all of these systems to be thoroughly Christian, because it increases the odds that you will persevere.

01:02:39.592 --> 01:02:42.292
<v SPEAKER_2>And also, it's just a better life.

01:02:42.292 --> 01:02:49.752
<v SPEAKER_2>Living in a Christian society is far better than living in a pagan one, all else being held equal.

01:02:49.752 --> 01:02:55.452
<v SPEAKER_2>There's no rational argument, there's certainly no Christian argument to oppose that.

01:02:55.452 --> 01:03:03.052
<v SPEAKER_2>Anyone who says that we shouldn't be endeavoring to accomplish those things, to build that sort of society, is a wicked man.

01:03:03.052 --> 01:03:05.132
<v SPEAKER_2>That's evil.

01:03:05.132 --> 01:03:11.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Because what that person is actually opposing is conforming whatever it happens to be.

01:03:11.292 --> 01:03:14.852
<v SPEAKER_2>And usually these days, it's an argument against Christian nationalism.

01:03:14.852 --> 01:03:23.792
<v SPEAKER_2>And so they're opposing the idea of conforming the behavior of the nation to God's word, to God's law, to God's standards.

01:03:23.792 --> 01:03:25.172
<v SPEAKER_2>No Christian can make that argument.

01:03:27.092 --> 01:03:52.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Because all you're doing is saying, while I personally am giving them the possible, the best possible construction, they're saying, while I personally will conform my behavior to the word of God, and God's law, God's requirements, I couldn't possibly want my society to be conformed to that, because I should leave society to be free to do whatever they...

01:03:52.732 --> 01:03:58.752
<v SPEAKER_2>No, we want everyone to conform to God's standards.

01:03:58.752 --> 01:04:04.012
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not just because it's easier for us to live in that society.

01:04:04.012 --> 01:04:08.952
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not just because that makes it easier to persevere, to run the race successfully.

01:04:08.952 --> 01:04:12.972
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also because God blesses faithful nations.

01:04:12.972 --> 01:04:14.572
<v SPEAKER_2>He doesn't just bless individuals.

01:04:14.572 --> 01:04:19.972
<v SPEAKER_2>In fact, God blesses primarily, first and foremost, nations that are faithful.

01:04:21.372 --> 01:04:24.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Look at all the blessings in the Old Testament.

01:04:24.192 --> 01:04:27.092
<v SPEAKER_2>They largely flow to nations, not to individuals.

01:04:28.112 --> 01:04:35.072
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not, of course, saying there are no blessings to individuals, because, of course, the greatest blessing is eternal life, which goes to individuals.

01:04:35.072 --> 01:04:37.172
<v SPEAKER_2>You must have individual faith.

01:04:37.172 --> 01:04:48.452
<v SPEAKER_2>However, large-scale blessings, God's blessing of rain in its rightful season, and do remember that God controls those things, and they are blessings from God.

01:04:48.852 --> 01:05:03.472
<v SPEAKER_2>And God's blessing of bountiful harvests, of a lack of wildfires, of a lack of disease, of a lack of serious natural disasters, all of those things are on the larger scale.

01:05:03.472 --> 01:05:11.592
<v SPEAKER_2>They are blessings on nations, on peoples, on eras, or curses, depending on which comes.

01:05:11.592 --> 01:05:22.072
<v SPEAKER_2>So we should, of course, want to be a Christian society, a Christian nation, a Christian civilization, because God promises to bless us if that is the case.

01:05:23.432 --> 01:05:30.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And above and beyond that, it's not just a matter of things being easier and receiving blessings.

01:05:30.512 --> 01:05:33.272
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also our duty to God.

01:05:33.272 --> 01:05:41.652
<v SPEAKER_2>God requires of us to conform everything to his will, to conform everything to his standards.

01:05:41.652 --> 01:05:47.712
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not just my personal opinions or my personal behavior, my personal beliefs.

01:05:47.712 --> 01:05:53.012
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also those of my family, of my tribe and of my nation.

01:05:53.012 --> 01:06:00.352
<v SPEAKER_2>All of those things are to be conformed to what God demands, because that is what God demands of Christians.

01:06:01.672 --> 01:06:10.652
<v SPEAKER_2>God does not just say that your personal behavior has to comport with the moral law, that you personally must not do these things.

01:06:12.552 --> 01:06:15.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Think about what Genesis 9-6 says.

01:06:15.592 --> 01:06:18.212
<v SPEAKER_2>That's very straightforward moral law.

01:06:19.632 --> 01:06:26.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Genesis 9-6 commands that society execute those who commit murder.

01:06:26.912 --> 01:06:42.012
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a requirement of a Christian society, of a Christian nation, because that requires, at the very least, some sort of trial, some sort of justice system, because again, there are other requirements in scripture where you can't have just one witness.

01:06:42.012 --> 01:06:43.872
<v SPEAKER_2>You have to have two or three.

01:06:43.872 --> 01:06:50.172
<v SPEAKER_2>And to have witnesses, you have to have them witnessing to someone, repeating what they saw.

01:06:50.172 --> 01:06:53.352
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a requirement of a justice system.

01:06:53.352 --> 01:06:58.632
<v SPEAKER_2>You have the rudiments then of a Christian society, of a Christian nation.

01:06:58.632 --> 01:07:01.272
<v SPEAKER_2>That is what God requires in his word.

01:07:01.272 --> 01:07:05.272
<v SPEAKER_2>No Christian can possibly stand against that.

01:07:05.272 --> 01:07:21.732
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you have to have not just Christian individuals whose consciences are formed by the word of God, but a Christian society that is built on the word of God and that enforces it with various mechanisms, not the least of which is shame.

01:07:21.732 --> 01:07:23.672
<v SPEAKER_2>That's sort of the first step.

01:07:23.672 --> 01:07:28.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Shaming wrongful behavior is very low cost for the one shamed.

01:07:28.832 --> 01:07:40.152
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, shame is painful and obviously shameful in the moment, but it's a very low cost generally speaking, certainly lower than prison or execution.

01:07:42.072 --> 01:08:01.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And so if we have these things in place, if we have these feedback loops, as it were, you are again going to have not just more Christians, but better Christians and Christians who are living Christian lives more easily than would be the case with the alternative sort of arrangement.

01:08:02.712 --> 01:08:15.512
<v SPEAKER_2>One of the ways that I have thought about this for many years that I believe many will find helpful is to compare and contrast the economy and the culture.

01:08:15.512 --> 01:08:19.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And I'm taking culture in a very broad sense here, so do bear that in mind.

01:08:20.492 --> 01:08:34.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Despite the critiques that we've leveled against capitalism, and I do mean the upper case C when I say capitalism, in the past in various episodes on Twitter and elsewhere, there's nothing wrong with markets.

01:08:35.272 --> 01:08:37.392
<v SPEAKER_2>We've never said there is.

01:08:37.392 --> 01:08:39.672
<v SPEAKER_2>We've often used the market as an illustration.

01:08:40.892 --> 01:08:50.192
<v SPEAKER_2>A market economy, as long as it is properly limited and regulated and subjected to the things that God requires and prohibits, is fine.

01:08:50.192 --> 01:08:53.672
<v SPEAKER_2>There's nothing wrong with using the market as a tool.

01:08:53.672 --> 01:08:58.392
<v SPEAKER_2>And so economically, you can have a market system.

01:08:58.392 --> 01:09:00.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Culturally, you cannot.

01:09:01.532 --> 01:09:04.892
<v SPEAKER_2>Because culturally, there are standards.

01:09:04.892 --> 01:09:08.872
<v SPEAKER_2>There are things that God permits and things that God prohibits.

01:09:08.872 --> 01:09:12.072
<v SPEAKER_2>You cannot have a market for the culture.

01:09:12.072 --> 01:09:17.172
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if you have a market for the culture, you wind up with what we have today.

01:09:17.172 --> 01:09:22.152
<v SPEAKER_2>And what we have today is certainly not in line with what God requires.

01:09:22.152 --> 01:09:25.572
<v SPEAKER_2>It is certainly not in line with God's word.

01:09:25.572 --> 01:09:36.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you have to have, and it's a dirty word, certainly to Libertarians and many in our society, but you have to have a command culture.

01:09:36.272 --> 01:09:46.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Because we have a command culture, because the proper command culture is the one that is according to God's commands, God's commandments.

01:09:46.272 --> 01:09:52.052
<v SPEAKER_2>There are things that God tells us we must do, things that God tells us we must not do.

01:09:52.052 --> 01:09:55.912
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you cannot have a culture that is up to majority vote.

01:09:57.212 --> 01:10:00.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Because often the majority will do things that are wicked.

01:10:00.552 --> 01:10:03.312
<v SPEAKER_2>The majority will legalize abortion.

01:10:03.312 --> 01:10:06.392
<v SPEAKER_2>The majority will legalize homosexual marriage.

01:10:06.392 --> 01:10:10.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And yes, I am ignoring the times it went up to vote and was shot down.

01:10:10.092 --> 01:10:12.272
<v SPEAKER_2>It doesn't matter, because guess what?

01:10:12.272 --> 01:10:15.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Majorities in certain places now approve of it.

01:10:15.392 --> 01:10:21.472
<v SPEAKER_2>And so no, you cannot have the culture submitted to a majority vote.

01:10:21.472 --> 01:10:23.892
<v SPEAKER_2>Because there is a right and a wrong.

01:10:24.352 --> 01:10:26.852
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not a matter of what the majority prefers.

01:10:26.852 --> 01:10:29.092
<v SPEAKER_2>It is a matter of what God says.

01:10:29.092 --> 01:10:31.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And so economically, again, you can have a market.

01:10:31.752 --> 01:10:32.672
<v SPEAKER_2>That's fine.

01:10:32.732 --> 01:10:35.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Use that tool where it is appropriate.

01:10:35.592 --> 01:10:43.172
<v SPEAKER_2>But with regard to the culture, it has to be a culture that is conformed to God's requirements.

01:10:43.172 --> 01:10:52.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And the only way you can ensure that is rightful hierarchy, is having an actual authority, not democracy, not putting it up to a vote.

01:10:53.052 --> 01:10:57.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And certainly, this is timely, considering we are recording on election day.

01:10:58.532 --> 01:11:19.472
<v SPEAKER_2>But various things with regard to the culture, with regard to the moral law, cannot be put up to a vote, cannot be subjected to the tyranny of the majority, must be commanded, must be instituted by godly authorities who will one day answer to God for the things they did and the things they failed to do.

01:11:21.012 --> 01:11:25.072
<v SPEAKER_2>And so as Christians, what we want is a Christian society.

01:11:25.072 --> 01:11:28.892
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't just want individual Christians.

01:11:28.892 --> 01:11:31.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, of course, we want individual Christians.

01:11:31.452 --> 01:11:34.592
<v SPEAKER_2>We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't want that.

01:11:34.592 --> 01:11:39.052
<v SPEAKER_2>But individual Christians form Christian groups.

01:11:39.052 --> 01:11:40.992
<v SPEAKER_2>They form Christian families.

01:11:40.992 --> 01:11:44.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And ultimately, they form Christian nations.

01:11:46.132 --> 01:11:47.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That is one of the goals.

01:11:47.552 --> 01:11:49.232
<v SPEAKER_2>That must always be one of the goals.

01:11:49.532 --> 01:12:13.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Of Christian men, to construct a Christian society, to construct a Christian nation, in which God's law, God's moral law, is transposed into the positive law, transposed into the culture, transposed into the norms and the standards to which individual members of society are held.

01:12:13.872 --> 01:12:19.372
<v SPEAKER_2>Anything less than that falls short of what it means to actually be a Christian.

01:12:21.312 --> 01:12:28.092
<v SPEAKER_1>Or you spoke earlier about the difference between the external and internal impetus of shame.

01:12:28.092 --> 01:12:36.372
<v SPEAKER_1>I want to point us now back to scripture, to the first time that shame appears in the Bible, because it's at the very beginning of sin.

01:12:36.372 --> 01:12:43.552
<v SPEAKER_1>In Genesis 3, the end of Genesis 2, I'm going to read, skipping a couple parts, just to get to the part I want.

01:12:43.552 --> 01:12:49.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Genesis says, And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

01:12:49.972 --> 01:12:54.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Eve took of the fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate.

01:12:54.892 --> 01:13:02.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

01:13:02.712 --> 01:13:11.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord among the trees of the garden.

01:13:11.652 --> 01:13:14.932
<v SPEAKER_1>But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, Where are you?

01:13:14.932 --> 01:13:21.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And he said, I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself.

01:13:21.072 --> 01:13:26.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, we're going to continue on to the whole thing, but this is the beginning of shame.

01:13:26.012 --> 01:13:35.872
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, notably, before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were naked and they were not ashamed and they did not sin.

01:13:35.872 --> 01:13:52.872
<v SPEAKER_1>I think equally importantly, after they ate of the tree, after they had knowledge of good and evil, that God had not yet ordained to give to them, when they found out on their own that they were naked and they became ashamed of their nakedness, they weren't sinning.

01:13:52.872 --> 01:13:55.232
<v SPEAKER_1>God didn't tell them to uncover themselves.

01:13:55.232 --> 01:14:00.852
<v SPEAKER_1>In fact, one of the things he did when he kicked them out was he killed animals and made proper loincloths for them.

01:14:00.852 --> 01:14:04.832
<v SPEAKER_1>He gave them actual clothing made from animals that God killed.

01:14:04.832 --> 01:14:10.692
<v SPEAKER_1>That was the first sacrifice made for their clothing so that their nakedness would be covered, because it was shameful.

01:14:11.632 --> 01:14:20.652
<v SPEAKER_1>So, the notion that shame is somehow, it's tied to sin, but it is not sinful to be ashamed.

01:14:20.652 --> 01:14:23.852
<v SPEAKER_1>In fact, it is sinful not to be ashamed.

01:14:23.852 --> 01:14:31.772
<v SPEAKER_1>And this is something that we have seen play out, especially in the last two centuries, particularly, I think, in the middle of the last century.

01:14:31.772 --> 01:14:45.452
<v SPEAKER_1>As we were contacting lots of these tribes, what's now called the Global South, these people who have been in communion with demons for 4,000 years, they have lost all sense of shame.

01:14:45.452 --> 01:14:48.512
<v SPEAKER_1>They run around naked, and they don't care.

01:14:48.512 --> 01:14:52.852
<v SPEAKER_1>When Adam and Eve realized that they were naked, they were ashamed and they covered themselves up.

01:14:52.852 --> 01:14:53.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And God didn't correct them.

01:14:53.812 --> 01:14:57.032
<v SPEAKER_1>He didn't admonish them because they had done something wrong.

01:14:57.032 --> 01:15:04.552
<v SPEAKER_1>What they had done wrong was eating when they were told not to, but they did not sin by covering their nakedness.

01:15:04.552 --> 01:15:15.272
<v SPEAKER_1>When we find people in the Global South, these consorts of demons, for 4,000 years, they no longer even have that sense of shame that Adam and Eve had.

01:15:15.272 --> 01:15:20.092
<v SPEAKER_1>That was a natural consequence of the knowledge of good and evil.

01:15:20.092 --> 01:15:27.952
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that those in the Global South, the fact that these demon consorts have lost even that, is fundamentally subhuman.

01:15:27.952 --> 01:15:32.152
<v SPEAKER_1>They are less human because of the absence of their shame.

01:15:32.152 --> 01:15:36.212
<v SPEAKER_1>I know that's going to set some hair on fire, but what else do we do with this?

01:15:36.772 --> 01:15:50.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's particularly notable because when we have Christian missionaries going into these places, especially lately, and they find these people who run around naked because they don't know any better, we don't tell them to cover up.

01:15:50.212 --> 01:15:52.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We don't tell them that that's shameful.

01:15:52.692 --> 01:16:07.732
<v SPEAKER_1>What is said, when you go look at what people who call themselves Christians, who contact these societies, if you can even call it that, these races that have been separated from God and from all of civilization elsewhere because they never had any of their own.

01:16:07.732 --> 01:16:14.312
<v SPEAKER_1>When we come to them and we tell them about God, we celebrate, we shouldn't, Christians cannot.

01:16:14.312 --> 01:16:20.132
<v SPEAKER_1>But the people contacting them as missionaries, in many cases, will celebrate their nakedness.

01:16:20.132 --> 01:16:26.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Say oh, they're one with nature, they don't have these hangups that we have in the West with nakedness.

01:16:26.652 --> 01:16:28.072
<v SPEAKER_1>That is abject evil.

01:16:28.732 --> 01:16:34.792
<v SPEAKER_1>To condone shamefulness, to condone nakedness like that, is wicked.

01:16:34.792 --> 01:16:36.092
<v SPEAKER_1>It's plainly wicked.

01:16:36.092 --> 01:16:48.652
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot read Genesis 3 or any of the rest of the Bible and come away with the notion that when we find people who consorted with demons for 4,000 years, to the point that they have lost the capacity.

01:16:48.652 --> 01:16:50.892
<v SPEAKER_1>When you try to explain it to them, they don't understand.

01:16:50.892 --> 01:16:55.812
<v SPEAKER_1>If they've literally lost the capacity for that, which came completely naturally to Adam and Eve.

01:16:56.652 --> 01:17:07.552
<v SPEAKER_1>And it wasn't that they were closer to God by proximity, is that there's been a devolution, there's been a loss of things that should have been natural and even fallen man.

01:17:07.552 --> 01:17:11.932
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet we find Aborigines and the like even further away than that.

01:17:11.932 --> 01:17:15.072
<v SPEAKER_1>That is horrific, absolutely horrific condition.

01:17:16.072 --> 01:17:23.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Which is why what Corey was saying about Christian nations being so vital is intrinsic to all of this.

01:17:23.352 --> 01:17:31.412
<v SPEAKER_1>If you lose Christian guidelines for, hey, let's not do this because we're going to end up devolving, it's no joke.

01:17:31.412 --> 01:17:39.832
<v SPEAKER_1>If you separate from God long enough, you will lose the parts of humanity that make it possible to even get back to where we were.

01:17:39.832 --> 01:17:49.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It's no longer a matter of education when someone doesn't understand that violent acts and shameful behaviors, they don't understand and you can't explain to them.

01:17:49.872 --> 01:17:52.372
<v SPEAKER_1>They've lost the capacity.

01:17:52.372 --> 01:17:55.952
<v SPEAKER_1>This is not me picking on things to try to make this as about race.

01:17:55.952 --> 01:18:01.332
<v SPEAKER_1>This is pointing out that the different races, they were in different places separated by God.

01:18:01.332 --> 01:18:13.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Those who were further separated from the word, having lost it after coming off the ark, after being separated at the Tower of Babel, some of them communed with demons for so long that we don't know how to get them back.

01:18:13.112 --> 01:18:17.032
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not that they ceased to be sons of God in genetic terms.

01:18:17.032 --> 01:18:18.332
<v SPEAKER_1>They're all descended from Adam.

01:18:18.332 --> 01:18:20.152
<v SPEAKER_1>That hasn't changed.

01:18:20.152 --> 01:18:30.472
<v SPEAKER_1>But for them to have been rendered incapable of shame, it should instill such horror in us that we have to fast and repent for a week when we see it.

01:18:30.472 --> 01:18:36.532
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet, most of what we see today from so-called Christians is to celebrate it, to look how they're not hung up.

01:18:36.532 --> 01:18:39.292
<v SPEAKER_1>They don't have our shameful Western ideas about these things.

01:18:39.912 --> 01:18:41.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Adam and Eve weren't Western.

01:18:41.992 --> 01:18:43.492
<v SPEAKER_1>They were Christian.

01:18:43.492 --> 01:18:46.772
<v SPEAKER_1>They were fallen Christians, but they still knew the rules.

01:18:46.772 --> 01:18:51.192
<v SPEAKER_1>When you have people who have been reduced to the point, they can't even understand the rules.

01:18:51.212 --> 01:18:55.432
<v SPEAKER_1>Even shame has lost the capacity to govern their behavior.

01:18:55.432 --> 01:19:02.412
<v SPEAKER_1>And this is a political matter, because as we encounter some of these races, what do we do with people that are incapable of shame?

01:19:02.412 --> 01:19:10.812
<v SPEAKER_1>You have a very limited set of social and legal enforcements that are able to reign that sort of person in.

01:19:10.812 --> 01:19:14.892
<v SPEAKER_1>This isn't hypothetical, and that's one of the reasons that these people should be kept apart.

01:19:14.892 --> 01:19:21.912
<v SPEAKER_1>They shouldn't be in contact with our societies, because coexistence with that is impossible.

01:19:21.912 --> 01:19:26.992
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's not to say that we don't continue to try to take the gospel to them and help them.

01:19:26.992 --> 01:19:29.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Modulo dusting off our feet.

01:19:29.732 --> 01:19:37.312
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, when you shake off the dust from your feet as a curse against those who reject God, something that God commanded, we don't know where the lines are for those.

01:19:37.752 --> 01:19:41.152
<v SPEAKER_1>I still have yet to hear any Christian teacher propose one.

01:19:41.152 --> 01:19:45.232
<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe we'll have to come up with one on our own if somebody else doesn't.

01:19:45.232 --> 01:19:52.852
<v SPEAKER_1>When we look at these people who have fallen so much further than Adam and Eve fell, we have to admit that that is the case.

01:19:52.852 --> 01:19:55.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And we have to have a Christian explanation for why.

01:19:55.952 --> 01:19:58.992
<v SPEAKER_1>The un-Christian explanation is to say they're not human.

01:19:58.992 --> 01:19:59.952
<v SPEAKER_1>They're not humans at all.

01:19:59.952 --> 01:20:02.072
<v SPEAKER_1>They're some lesser animal.

01:20:02.092 --> 01:20:13.732
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want Christian men to be able to go there, but the only way to do that is to have a sound theological reason for inhuman behavior, because the behavior is inhuman.

01:20:13.732 --> 01:20:21.312
<v SPEAKER_1>That is the net result of failing to honor that which is honorable and to shame that which is shameful.

01:20:21.312 --> 01:20:30.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Not only do you lose your society, eventually your very race becomes devolved to the point that you cease to be human in some fundamental ways.

01:20:30.452 --> 01:20:33.272
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, I know some people are going to get very angry at that.

01:20:33.272 --> 01:20:38.312
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm saying it knowing you're going to be angry because I want you to go look at the text and find where I'm wrong.

01:20:38.312 --> 01:20:39.532
<v SPEAKER_1>I wish I were.

01:20:39.532 --> 01:20:41.432
<v SPEAKER_1>I wish I were just making this up.

01:20:41.432 --> 01:20:50.412
<v SPEAKER_1>But the alternative to your view, if someone disagrees, is that it's actually possible for things to get much worse than they are.

01:20:50.412 --> 01:20:58.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And we as Christian men who are fighting for the preservation of Christendom, have to believe that's true.

01:20:58.312 --> 01:21:05.972
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to think that things can get so much worse that we become unrecognizable as human beings because it's true.

01:21:05.972 --> 01:21:08.252
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want that for anyone.

01:21:08.252 --> 01:21:13.752
<v SPEAKER_1>I especially don't want that for my own people because we have the things of God and we should know better.

01:21:13.752 --> 01:21:21.492
<v SPEAKER_1>But the only way we can preserve them is to honor the things of God and to call out that which is shameful, whatever God calls shameful.

01:21:21.492 --> 01:21:28.372
<v SPEAKER_1>When we deviate from scripture, when we deviate from what is clearly laid out by God, we're still going to be doing something else.

01:21:28.372 --> 01:21:31.412
<v SPEAKER_1>Who knows what those people thought were shameful two, three, four thousand years ago.

01:21:32.052 --> 01:21:40.832
<v SPEAKER_1>At some point, they lost the plot to the point that now they're rendered incapable as a subspecies of doing it.

01:21:40.832 --> 01:21:42.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And you can't explain it to them.

01:21:42.572 --> 01:21:45.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Aborigines have IQs around 50 or 60.

01:21:45.392 --> 01:21:48.352
<v SPEAKER_1>There's nothing left that we can reason with.

01:21:48.352 --> 01:21:50.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is, it's horrifying.

01:21:50.392 --> 01:21:55.712
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to point to that as an example of, we can't let this happen to anyone else, anyone else.

01:21:55.712 --> 01:21:58.072
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want to see anyone devolve any further.

01:21:58.072 --> 01:21:59.292
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want to see the West devolve.

01:21:59.292 --> 01:22:00.632
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want to see Asia devolve.

01:22:01.032 --> 01:22:03.652
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want to see Africa devolve any worse.

01:22:03.652 --> 01:22:06.512
<v SPEAKER_1>As bad as things are, they can always keep getting worse.

01:22:06.512 --> 01:22:08.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Because you can always get further away from God.

01:22:08.792 --> 01:22:11.512
<v SPEAKER_1>You can always find new ways to be evil.

01:22:11.512 --> 01:22:17.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Even with no sense whatsoever, demons come along and they whisper and people are like, oh, that sounds like a good idea.

01:22:17.012 --> 01:22:19.032
<v SPEAKER_1>And they go do stuff.

01:22:19.032 --> 01:22:23.692
<v SPEAKER_1>People that don't even have an inner monologue, when they hear the voice in their head, they're just going to do it.

01:22:23.692 --> 01:22:34.052
<v SPEAKER_1>These enforcement mechanisms, these civilizational cultural enforcement mechanisms of shame and of honor, they're guardrails in both directions.

01:22:34.052 --> 01:22:36.132
<v SPEAKER_1>It's kind of the Overton window.

01:22:36.132 --> 01:22:40.272
<v SPEAKER_1>You have the shame at the far end, say, you can't go further than that, or you're going to get the whip.

01:22:40.272 --> 01:22:45.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And you have the honor at the other end, saying, if you go beyond this point, we're going to lodge you.

01:22:45.132 --> 01:22:46.612
<v SPEAKER_1>You're going to get a parade.

01:22:46.612 --> 01:22:47.972
<v SPEAKER_1>You're going to get a bonus.

01:22:47.972 --> 01:22:51.652
<v SPEAKER_1>We're going to write you a big check to show to everyone, this is really good.

01:22:51.652 --> 01:22:54.832
<v SPEAKER_1>More of this and less of the other thing.

01:22:54.832 --> 01:22:56.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Somebody's always doing that every day.

01:22:57.352 --> 01:22:59.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Society is doing that all the time.

01:22:59.712 --> 01:23:02.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And we all receive those price signals from the market.

01:23:02.512 --> 01:23:05.592
<v SPEAKER_1>We're all told, this is what's honorable, do more of this.

01:23:05.592 --> 01:23:08.152
<v SPEAKER_1>This is what's shameful, do less of this.

01:23:08.152 --> 01:23:16.432
<v SPEAKER_1>If we don't pay attention to the Christian standards for that, we will end up devolving to the point that no one will be able to explain right and wrong to us.

01:23:16.432 --> 01:23:18.212
<v SPEAKER_1>It can actually happen.

01:23:18.212 --> 01:23:24.732
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that these people are incapable of understanding even nakedness is proof of that by itself.

01:23:24.732 --> 01:23:26.452
<v SPEAKER_1>That's why these things matter.

01:23:26.892 --> 01:23:30.592
<v SPEAKER_1>That's why the subject of race matters and the division of nations matter.

01:23:30.592 --> 01:23:34.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Because in history, these things have already played out.

01:23:34.292 --> 01:23:38.892
<v SPEAKER_1>There's not some wild theory from a couple of podcasters that just hate people for no reason.

01:23:38.892 --> 01:23:40.112
<v SPEAKER_1>We don't hate anyone.

01:23:40.112 --> 01:23:41.112
<v SPEAKER_1>We hate evil.

01:23:41.112 --> 01:23:50.752
<v SPEAKER_1>We hate the fact that things can get to the point that you can't even explain God to someone who doesn't understand the future, doesn't understand consequences.

01:23:50.752 --> 01:23:54.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Because a consequence is a hypothetical of something that either will or won't happen.

01:23:55.832 --> 01:24:00.372
<v SPEAKER_1>When we set guardrails, like honor and shame, it's way up the causal chain.

01:24:00.372 --> 01:24:08.372
<v SPEAKER_1>It's ensuring that if we do those things correctly, we never get to the point that we have to worry about whether or not you can explain to one of us, hey man, you're naked.

01:24:08.372 --> 01:24:09.692
<v SPEAKER_1>Like, what's that?

01:24:09.692 --> 01:24:11.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Let's make sure we don't get there as a society.

01:24:11.952 --> 01:24:14.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Let's make sure we don't get there as a civilization.

01:24:14.772 --> 01:24:19.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Because today, our peoples, our nations understand.

01:24:19.092 --> 01:24:21.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Even when we do the wrong thing, we know it's the wrong thing.

01:24:21.892 --> 01:24:25.152
<v SPEAKER_1>But we will rapidly reach the point where we don't even understand anymore.

01:24:25.152 --> 01:24:27.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And we too will say, what is naked?

01:24:28.972 --> 01:24:37.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Let me just briefly drive home the point that Woe just made, and that we have made a number of other episodes in other places.

01:24:39.272 --> 01:24:42.312
<v SPEAKER_2>That things can always get worse.

01:24:42.312 --> 01:24:44.752
<v SPEAKER_2>As I've formulated often, there is no floor.

01:24:49.072 --> 01:25:04.392
<v SPEAKER_2>When Europeans first sailed to the African continent, the things that they found there do not bear description, certainly not on this podcast and not here.

01:25:04.392 --> 01:25:12.832
<v SPEAKER_2>But they were so terrible that it was unbelievable to many of the men who first witnessed those things.

01:25:14.552 --> 01:25:21.472
<v SPEAKER_2>One thing in particular that was widespread that can certainly be stated on this podcast was cannibalism.

01:25:22.492 --> 01:25:33.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Cannibalism was widespread in Africa, it still is to this day, and it's widespread in many of the places where Africans have been transported in their diaspora.

01:25:33.032 --> 01:25:39.352
<v SPEAKER_2>The same thing was true when Europeans first conquered Australia.

01:25:39.352 --> 01:25:46.512
<v SPEAKER_2>The Aborigines engaged in cannibalism, both just because and ritualistically.

01:25:47.852 --> 01:25:50.332
<v SPEAKER_2>The Africans did the same as well, by the way.

01:25:50.332 --> 01:25:52.572
<v SPEAKER_2>There was ritual cannibalism.

01:25:52.572 --> 01:26:02.632
<v SPEAKER_2>The same thing was true when Europeans first sailed to, discovered and conquered the New World, both South America and North America.

01:26:02.632 --> 01:26:06.572
<v SPEAKER_2>The Amerindian peoples engaged in cannibalism.

01:26:08.452 --> 01:26:20.492
<v SPEAKER_2>This is one of those things that you see everywhere that has been in long communion with demons, that has been away from God for centuries or millennia.

01:26:22.712 --> 01:26:28.072
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't currently have any real cannibalism problem anywhere in the West.

01:26:30.152 --> 01:26:31.832
<v SPEAKER_2>That could change.

01:26:33.052 --> 01:26:55.352
<v SPEAKER_2>If we continue to move away from God and things continue to get worse, that will eventually become part of our praxis, because it always does, because the demons always whisper about that, and they will always try to get humans to commit that sort of wickedness because God hates it.

01:26:56.492 --> 01:27:06.852
<v SPEAKER_2>Any society, any culture that engages in cannibalism is cursed by God, and things will undoubtedly degenerate from there.

01:27:07.032 --> 01:27:09.892
<v SPEAKER_2>They will continue to get worse.

01:27:09.892 --> 01:27:17.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Because as Woe said, when you are dealing with certain aboriginal populations, they have IQs in the 50s.

01:27:17.192 --> 01:27:19.872
<v SPEAKER_2>That is incomprehensibly stupid.

01:27:22.312 --> 01:27:29.992
<v SPEAKER_2>85 is considered mentally retarded, at least historically, and just objectively it is.

01:27:29.992 --> 01:27:34.432
<v SPEAKER_2>50 is so profoundly retarded that it is on the level of an animal.

01:27:35.412 --> 01:27:38.912
<v SPEAKER_2>There are guerrillas that are more intelligent than that.

01:27:40.392 --> 01:27:41.872
<v SPEAKER_2>That should tell you something.

01:27:41.872 --> 01:27:45.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That should terrify you in the fullest sense of that term.

01:27:45.552 --> 01:27:49.012
<v SPEAKER_2>That is a possibility for human beings.

01:27:50.612 --> 01:27:53.652
<v SPEAKER_2>God did not create them that way.

01:27:53.652 --> 01:28:00.452
<v SPEAKER_2>They were not that way when they came off the ark in Ham, and in some cases in Shem.

01:28:01.672 --> 01:28:02.592
<v SPEAKER_2>That happened later.

01:28:03.552 --> 01:28:04.992
<v SPEAKER_2>They have degenerated.

01:28:04.992 --> 01:28:08.152
<v SPEAKER_2>They have devolved to that point.

01:28:08.152 --> 01:28:13.312
<v SPEAKER_2>That is a possibility for Western populations as well.

01:28:13.312 --> 01:28:16.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That is the sort of thing that we want to avoid.

01:28:16.552 --> 01:28:22.852
<v SPEAKER_2>That is the sort of thing that you can avoid only if you have a moral society.

01:28:22.852 --> 01:28:31.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, I'm not going to say necessarily and explicitly Christian society, because even the pagan societies in Europe did not descend that far.

01:28:32.972 --> 01:28:40.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Although part of that is because they remained closer to and truer to the true faith.

01:28:40.272 --> 01:28:41.532
<v SPEAKER_2>You can look at the mythologies.

01:28:41.532 --> 01:28:49.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Compare the mythologies of Europe and the Aborigines and the Amerindians and others, the Africans.

01:28:49.732 --> 01:28:57.892
<v SPEAKER_2>You will very readily and very quickly notice the European mythologies are closer to Christianity.

01:28:57.892 --> 01:28:59.492
<v SPEAKER_2>They're not perfectly Christian.

01:28:59.492 --> 01:29:00.492
<v SPEAKER_2>I wouldn't ever say that.

01:29:01.212 --> 01:29:02.632
<v SPEAKER_2>They certainly got things wrong.

01:29:02.632 --> 01:29:06.352
<v SPEAKER_2>They corrupted things because they lost the truth at some point.

01:29:06.352 --> 01:29:13.512
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't know exactly when, but they certainly lost it after the rest of the world.

01:29:13.512 --> 01:29:17.372
<v SPEAKER_2>And God blessed them for that because they held on to the truth longer.

01:29:17.372 --> 01:29:20.732
<v SPEAKER_2>And when they lost it, they did not fall as far.

01:29:22.552 --> 01:29:32.212
<v SPEAKER_2>Pagan historians noted that some of the Northern European Pagans were particularly loyal when it came to fidelity in marriage.

01:29:32.212 --> 01:29:45.532
<v SPEAKER_2>God is going to bless you for that, whether you are Pagan or Christian, because the blessings for that flow naturally from the faithfulness itself, from the fidelity, from the chastity.

01:29:45.532 --> 01:29:52.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Some things carry the punishment or the blessing with them as a natural consequence.

01:29:52.132 --> 01:30:03.192
<v SPEAKER_2>So even if you are a Pagan population and you remain closer to the things of God, you will be more blessed than a Pagan population that has moved further away from the things of God.

01:30:03.192 --> 01:30:06.592
<v SPEAKER_2>However, all of that comes with a caveat.

01:30:07.732 --> 01:30:14.992
<v SPEAKER_2>I do not think that it is possible at this point in history to return to a sort of virtuous Paganism.

01:30:14.992 --> 01:30:19.332
<v SPEAKER_2>I think we see that today if you look at most of the Pagan groups.

01:30:19.332 --> 01:30:21.212
<v SPEAKER_2>They are incredibly degenerate.

01:30:22.592 --> 01:30:25.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Rampant drug use, promiscuity, all sorts of other problems.

01:30:26.772 --> 01:30:30.572
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't mean to say that all neo-Pagans are that way.

01:30:30.572 --> 01:30:32.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Because of course they aren't.

01:30:32.332 --> 01:30:33.872
<v SPEAKER_2>But many are.

01:30:33.872 --> 01:30:37.912
<v SPEAKER_2>And I don't think that we can return again to some sort of virtuous Paganism.

01:30:37.912 --> 01:30:41.372
<v SPEAKER_2>It's simply not a possibility.

01:30:41.372 --> 01:30:49.032
<v SPEAKER_2>If we were to go down that route, we would wind up in the sort of wickedness and depravity that we see in the rest of the world.

01:30:49.032 --> 01:30:50.532
<v SPEAKER_2>For any of a number of reasons.

01:30:50.532 --> 01:30:53.212
<v SPEAKER_2>This isn't the episode for going into that in detail.

01:30:54.152 --> 01:30:55.172
<v SPEAKER_2>But that is the reality.

01:30:55.172 --> 01:30:58.132
<v SPEAKER_2>That is where we would go.

01:30:58.132 --> 01:31:06.612
<v SPEAKER_2>That is where our society would end up in that sort of evil and wickedness, degeneration, devolution, depravity.

01:31:07.892 --> 01:31:10.472
<v SPEAKER_2>That is not where we want to go.

01:31:10.472 --> 01:31:12.232
<v SPEAKER_2>The only way to avoid that.

01:31:12.232 --> 01:31:29.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And of course, I'm not saying this is purely a matter of what is practical or what is best in the sense of the purely sort of secular sense, because obviously adhering to Christianity is proper because it is true.

01:31:29.252 --> 01:31:47.332
<v SPEAKER_2>But the only way that we are going to maintain a society that is worthy of the term, a civilization that is worthy of the term, is remaining Christian and becoming more Christian, returning to Christendom in which we have a pervasive Christianity in our population.

01:31:48.452 --> 01:31:55.792
<v SPEAKER_2>If we do not have that, we are going to end up falling just as far as the African or the Aboriginal.

01:31:57.232 --> 01:32:01.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Because that is where humanity inevitably goes without God.

01:32:03.032 --> 01:32:05.912
<v SPEAKER_2>The pagans would have eventually ended up there.

01:32:05.912 --> 01:32:07.492
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know how quickly.

01:32:07.492 --> 01:32:13.332
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know if it would have been 500 more years, 5,000 more years.

01:32:13.332 --> 01:32:21.512
<v SPEAKER_2>It doesn't really matter, because that is eventually where every group that walks away from God ends up.

01:32:21.512 --> 01:32:28.512
<v SPEAKER_2>That is the end of leaving God, of turning your back on God, and walking away from him.

01:32:28.512 --> 01:32:34.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Because again, as we have said many times in many episodes, you are always going Godward or Hellward.

01:32:34.072 --> 01:32:38.932
<v SPEAKER_2>And if you're going Hellward, things are going to get worse.

01:32:38.932 --> 01:32:40.232
<v SPEAKER_2>They will never get better.

01:32:40.232 --> 01:32:41.412
<v SPEAKER_2>They will always get worse.

01:32:42.912 --> 01:32:46.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And at some point, it seems like there's some sort of cliff.

01:32:46.132 --> 01:32:54.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Things get slightly worse up to a certain point, and then all of a sudden things are significantly orders of magnitude worse.

01:32:54.292 --> 01:32:58.452
<v SPEAKER_2>At some point, European pagans would have fallen off that cliff.

01:32:58.452 --> 01:33:01.332
<v SPEAKER_2>That is just the inevitable outcome.

01:33:01.332 --> 01:33:03.132
<v SPEAKER_2>We do not want that.

01:33:04.592 --> 01:33:07.292
<v SPEAKER_2>We live in a post fall world.

01:33:07.292 --> 01:33:16.432
<v SPEAKER_2>There is no ability, no possibility of restoring things to how God wanted them to be.

01:33:16.432 --> 01:33:22.352
<v SPEAKER_2>We cannot even restore things to what our ancestors had as a possibility.

01:33:22.352 --> 01:33:26.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Because this world is degenerating as it goes.

01:33:26.532 --> 01:33:31.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Because this world is cursed and disconnected, in a sense, from God.

01:33:31.772 --> 01:33:34.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Things get worse over time.

01:33:34.532 --> 01:33:36.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Problems accumulate.

01:33:38.592 --> 01:33:45.132
<v SPEAKER_2>All that we can do is hold on to what is left of the good that God built into creation.

01:33:47.152 --> 01:33:54.472
<v SPEAKER_2>We should absolutely, categorically oppose anything that destroys what is left of the good.

01:33:54.472 --> 01:34:22.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Whether that is beauty, or goodness, or truth, or any of the ways those work out in creation and in human beings themselves, we should never accept destruction of any of those things, because destruction of those things is destruction of the things of God, is an assault on what God has created, and it is also not just a diminishment of humanity, but a diminishment of the ability to hold on to the truth.

01:34:25.372 --> 01:34:43.652
<v SPEAKER_2>If we manage to get the entire population of Australian Aboriginals to convert to Christianity, to believe Christianity, to be Christian, and then left them alone for a thousand years, when we went back, there would not be a single Christian.

01:34:45.432 --> 01:34:48.172
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not because the word of God fails.

01:34:48.172 --> 01:34:51.512
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not because God is not faithful.

01:34:51.512 --> 01:34:58.232
<v SPEAKER_2>It is because there is a way in which the Christian truth, in which the Christian faith is transmitted, and there are requirements.

01:34:59.352 --> 01:35:08.232
<v SPEAKER_2>There is a certain level of capacity that is necessary for teachers, also for students, but certainly for teachers.

01:35:09.292 --> 01:35:14.772
<v SPEAKER_2>You cannot teach the Christian faith if you have an IQ of 50.

01:35:16.112 --> 01:35:28.732
<v SPEAKER_2>You can receive it, because of course we have talked about those with mental disabilities in previous episodes, and they can be Christians, but they can't teach the faith, and so they can't transmit the faith.

01:35:30.112 --> 01:35:39.872
<v SPEAKER_2>If a population falls below a certain level, it will inevitably lose the Christian faith, unless it is maintained externally.

01:35:41.572 --> 01:35:51.172
<v SPEAKER_2>If we in the West lose the ability to transmit the Christian faith, that is the end of Christianity.

01:35:51.172 --> 01:35:55.232
<v SPEAKER_2>No one else is going to step up, because essentially no one else can.

01:35:55.352 --> 01:36:04.672
<v SPEAKER_2>There are some pockets of populations here and there that have the hardware as it were, the horsepower, the capacity.

01:36:04.672 --> 01:36:07.052
<v SPEAKER_2>They could theoretically do it.

01:36:07.052 --> 01:36:08.872
<v SPEAKER_2>But look at history.

01:36:08.872 --> 01:36:11.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Look at the last 2000 years.

01:36:11.592 --> 01:36:15.292
<v SPEAKER_2>No one else has maintained the Christian faith.

01:36:15.292 --> 01:36:24.272
<v SPEAKER_2>No one else has spread the Christian faith, with the small exception of a couple pockets here and there that have kept an insular Christian faith.

01:36:25.072 --> 01:36:26.272
<v SPEAKER_2>They've never spread it.

01:36:26.272 --> 01:36:28.712
<v SPEAKER_2>They've never gone to the rest of the world.

01:36:28.712 --> 01:36:31.792
<v SPEAKER_2>It was only Europeans who did that.

01:36:31.792 --> 01:36:37.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And so if we lose that capacity, what does it mean for the future of the church?

01:36:40.092 --> 01:36:42.232
<v SPEAKER_2>That is why these things matter.

01:36:42.232 --> 01:37:00.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if we do not maintain these standards, if we do not have a society that shames behavior, that transgresses the moral law, behavior that is against God, that violates his word, that is destructive, and these things are all synonymous.

01:37:00.192 --> 01:37:01.872
<v SPEAKER_2>You can use them interchangeably.

01:37:02.992 --> 01:37:17.112
<v SPEAKER_2>If we do not shame that behavior, if individuals do not feel guilt when they engage in that behavior, we will simply go down the same path of degeneration as basically everyone else has.

01:37:18.732 --> 01:37:19.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the outcome.

01:37:19.992 --> 01:37:29.412
<v SPEAKER_2>We know that outcome is a possibility, because when they walked off the arc, they were not like that.

01:37:29.412 --> 01:37:35.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Every single man on this planet is a son of Noah.

01:37:35.912 --> 01:37:39.352
<v SPEAKER_2>But look at the various populations around the world.

01:37:39.352 --> 01:37:42.452
<v SPEAKER_2>We are very clearly not equal today.

01:37:42.452 --> 01:37:52.952
<v SPEAKER_2>It is possible to go from what Noah was, and what his forefathers before him were, to what we see today in every single part of the world.

01:37:52.952 --> 01:38:00.592
<v SPEAKER_2>You can be a European with an IQ of 160, or you can be an Aboriginal with an IQ of 50.

01:38:00.592 --> 01:38:04.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Both of those are possibilities, starting with Father Noah.

01:38:04.832 --> 01:38:08.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Only one of those can transmit the Christian faith.

01:38:08.412 --> 01:38:21.632
<v SPEAKER_2>It is necessary to maintain, to build, to jealously guard the sort of Christian society that can still create the men who have the capacity to spread the Christian faith.

01:38:21.632 --> 01:38:26.492
<v SPEAKER_2>And not just to spread the Christian faith, but to defend the Christian faith.

01:38:26.492 --> 01:38:30.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Satan is not going to stop attacking the Christian faith.

01:38:30.192 --> 01:38:34.912
<v SPEAKER_2>He is going to accelerate his attacks because he knows that his time is short.

01:38:34.912 --> 01:38:42.732
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you need the sort of men who can defend the faith, not just against all of the ancient attacks, because of course, those are still out there.

01:38:44.252 --> 01:38:51.372
<v SPEAKER_2>We like to think those battles were one, and to some degree they were, but they weren't one for all time.

01:38:51.372 --> 01:39:10.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Look at Christianity in various parts of the world, and the heresies that have sprung up, their ancient heresies that were solved 500, 1,000, 1,500 years ago in the West, because Satan knows they can bring them right back in if the men who can defend against them are no longer there.

01:39:10.772 --> 01:39:12.612
<v SPEAKER_2>And he is also going to bring in novel heresies.

01:39:12.652 --> 01:39:14.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Because we see that happening today.

01:39:15.892 --> 01:39:23.552
<v SPEAKER_2>We have often pointed out that Satan, with regard to the West, is not attacking justification by and large.

01:39:24.752 --> 01:39:26.452
<v SPEAKER_2>He doesn't need to do that.

01:39:26.452 --> 01:39:28.552
<v SPEAKER_2>He's going to attack creation.

01:39:28.552 --> 01:39:34.272
<v SPEAKER_2>He's going to attack the first article of the creed, because that's more effective in the West.

01:39:34.272 --> 01:39:38.412
<v SPEAKER_2>In the other parts of the world, he'll attack whatever he feels is most effective at that time.

01:39:38.412 --> 01:39:40.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And so he'll attack justification there.

01:39:40.732 --> 01:39:52.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Or he'll bring up the prosperity gospel, which we also have in some parts of the US., or the liberation gospel, or any of these other heresies that are effective in other parts of the world.

01:39:52.652 --> 01:39:59.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Because the men who are capable of defending against the heresy no longer exist in those populations.

01:40:01.532 --> 01:40:06.432
<v SPEAKER_2>It is a very real possibility that we can lose the Christian faith.

01:40:06.432 --> 01:40:10.692
<v SPEAKER_2>That shouldn't be something that is unheard of.

01:40:10.692 --> 01:40:14.172
<v SPEAKER_2>That shouldn't be something that is unthinkable.

01:40:14.172 --> 01:40:16.432
<v SPEAKER_2>It should be abhorrent, certainly.

01:40:16.432 --> 01:40:19.332
<v SPEAKER_2>It should be a terrible possibility.

01:40:19.332 --> 01:40:22.792
<v SPEAKER_2>But it is something we have to recognize as a possibility.

01:40:22.792 --> 01:40:24.052
<v SPEAKER_2>Look at history.

01:40:25.552 --> 01:40:30.872
<v SPEAKER_2>All of those who walked off the ark knew the Christian faith.

01:40:30.872 --> 01:40:36.192
<v SPEAKER_2>They had heard it directly from a man who at the time was prophet, priest and king.

01:40:38.292 --> 01:40:46.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Because he was their father, they heard it from him directly over a course of many years.

01:40:46.772 --> 01:40:50.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Because do keep in mind, they lived centuries unlike us.

01:40:51.912 --> 01:40:55.732
<v SPEAKER_2>These were not men who were unfamiliar with the Christian faith.

01:40:55.732 --> 01:40:57.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And yet look at their descendants.

01:40:57.752 --> 01:41:01.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Most of them lost the Christian faith.

01:41:01.512 --> 01:41:02.952
<v SPEAKER_2>The same can happen to us.

01:41:04.392 --> 01:41:21.392
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it may seem like honor is just some sort of philosophical concept, that well, it's a part of society, and it forms different sort of backbones, and plays different roles in different places, at different times, in different cultures.

01:41:22.892 --> 01:41:29.972
<v SPEAKER_2>But in reality, it is something that is fundamental, both to civilization and to the Christian faith.

01:41:29.972 --> 01:41:36.152
<v SPEAKER_2>Because when it is properly conceived, it's not just a matter of the shame or the guilt.

01:41:36.152 --> 01:41:40.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Because certain cultures have emphasized one or the other.

01:41:40.532 --> 01:41:41.952
<v SPEAKER_2>Both are necessary.

01:41:42.972 --> 01:41:44.752
<v SPEAKER_2>Both are part of honor.

01:41:44.752 --> 01:41:49.112
<v SPEAKER_2>Both defend the Christian faith when they are properly formed.

01:41:49.112 --> 01:41:53.752
<v SPEAKER_2>As Woe said earlier, the enforcement mechanism is good.

01:41:53.752 --> 01:41:58.152
<v SPEAKER_2>It is a matter of the standard on which the rules are based.

01:41:58.912 --> 01:42:03.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Because the enforcement mechanism is simply enforcing those rules.

01:42:03.272 --> 01:42:05.492
<v SPEAKER_2>What is the source of those rules?

01:42:05.492 --> 01:42:06.952
<v SPEAKER_2>Where did you get that?

01:42:06.952 --> 01:42:09.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Why do you believe that?

01:42:09.392 --> 01:42:10.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Why is that true?

01:42:10.252 --> 01:42:12.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Why do you think that's true?

01:42:12.572 --> 01:42:20.032
<v SPEAKER_2>With regard to your conscience, again, it should be because it is formed by the Word of God, because you have conformed it to the things of God.

01:42:20.032 --> 01:42:31.072
<v SPEAKER_2>And with regard to society, it should be because those consciences formed by the Word of God have transposed God's law into the positive law.

01:42:31.072 --> 01:42:34.052
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, the positive law is just the laws of society.

01:42:35.672 --> 01:42:39.732
<v SPEAKER_2>The positive law should be based on the moral law.

01:42:39.732 --> 01:42:42.572
<v SPEAKER_2>That's just simple Christian truth.

01:42:42.572 --> 01:42:51.372
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, Genesis 9, 6, God requires us to have laws against murder, and he requires a certain punishment for it.

01:42:51.372 --> 01:42:59.532
<v SPEAKER_2>That is a requirement to transpose his moral law, Genesis 9, 6, into our positive law.

01:42:59.532 --> 01:43:07.892
<v SPEAKER_2>All of our laws against murder and unjust killing, whatever we happen to call it in the various laws in our various lands.

01:43:09.412 --> 01:43:15.612
<v SPEAKER_2>Whether or not we have a Christian society is not an optional matter.

01:43:15.612 --> 01:43:17.892
<v SPEAKER_2>As Christians, it is required.

01:43:17.892 --> 01:43:29.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, it's optional in the sense that we can simply ignore that duty and lose Christianity and our, perhaps not sons, but grandsons or great-grandsons will wind up apostate.

01:43:31.872 --> 01:43:35.772
<v SPEAKER_2>But that is not something that a Christian would consider an option.

01:43:35.772 --> 01:43:47.652
<v SPEAKER_2>The goal again must be to construct Christian societies that produce Christian men who can maintain those very same Christian societies.

01:43:47.652 --> 01:44:05.172
<v SPEAKER_2>Because however long we have left in this creation, however long we have left on this earth, before God draws everything to a close, we have to maintain Christendom, and the ability to maintain Christendom, for that period of time.

01:44:05.172 --> 01:44:08.052
<v SPEAKER_2>We do not know how long it will be.

01:44:08.052 --> 01:44:12.372
<v SPEAKER_2>So we have to live as if we will maintain this forever.

01:44:12.372 --> 01:44:16.892
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a now but not yet of a different kind.

01:44:16.892 --> 01:44:22.232
<v SPEAKER_2>We have to live as if we would live forever, but also as if we would die tomorrow.

01:44:22.232 --> 01:44:31.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And so personally, we conduct ourselves, hopefully, and certainly we should attempt to conduct ourselves, as if we will die tomorrow.

01:44:31.572 --> 01:44:33.592
<v SPEAKER_2>We want to be right with God.

01:44:33.592 --> 01:44:36.832
<v SPEAKER_2>We want to have our affairs in order, as it were.

01:44:36.832 --> 01:44:47.272
<v SPEAKER_2>But we have to build our societies as if things will just keep going, as if they will not be drawn to a close, because we don't know when God will end things.

01:44:47.432 --> 01:44:49.612
<v SPEAKER_2>No man knows the day or the hour.

01:44:50.832 --> 01:44:56.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And so as Christians, we have to maintain this deposit of the faith.

01:44:56.252 --> 01:45:06.592
<v SPEAKER_2>We have to maintain this truth that we have, that was transmitted to us by our forefathers, for which we should be infinitely grateful.

01:45:06.592 --> 01:45:13.652
<v SPEAKER_2>We have to maintain it so that it can be passed on to others and certainly, and most importantly, to future generations of our own people.

01:45:15.292 --> 01:45:33.152
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if we do not do that, eventually there will come a time where the Christian faith will be lost in the West, and from there forward, because no one else is going to come and reintroduce Christianity, it will just be generations of the damned, all the way until the end of time.