Transcript: Episode 0001

This transcript:
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Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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I am Corey J. Moller, and I'm well in this episode, we will be discussing the issues

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of headship, teaching, and women in the church.

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So the question that's been raging lately on the Lutheran Twitter sphere has been

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Can Girls Teach.

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It's an interesting question because it's not a Lutheran question, it's one that's been

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really facing the whole church for Japan, how far back you go centuries, but certainly

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in the last 50 years, Can Girls Teach has been in the forefront of what's happening in

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our Christian churches.

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The reason we're going to talk about it today is that in part, that's not actually the

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right form of the question.

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Form of the question is May Girls Teach, but before we can answer that, we have to answer

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a few predicate questions to define our terms.

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The first is, what is a girl, what is a woman, where did they come from, what are they

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for, and then once we understand that, we can add, address the question, what is teaching?

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So Corey, what is a girl?

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Well a girl is defined in part, you could define a girl as in contrast to a man, and what

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a girl is, is a help meet, woman is made for man, not man for woman, as scripture very

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clearly states, and so woman is made in Genesis 1.

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We have, of course, we have the more elaborate detail later on in Genesis, but we have in

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Genesis 1.27.

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So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female

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he created them, and of course we'll get to some of the grammar and such there a little

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bit later, but the whole purpose of a girl is to help her husband, before she has a husband,

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it's to help her family.

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But that is the purpose of a girl, it is not to be an equal or a competitor to man,

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which is sort of what we've allowed girls to become today.

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So we have in Genesis 1.27, so God created man in his own image, in the image of God he

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created him, male and female he created them.

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Now the question of course arises here, is woman is the female made in the image of God?

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And we have other places in scripture that will shed light on this, because man is the

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glory of God, man is made in the image of God.

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Woman is the glory of man, so there's a difference there, is woman ultimately made in the image

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of God, yes, in a transitive sense, because she's the image and glory of man who is the

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image and glory of God.

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And we have that here in Genesis 1.27, because if you actually look at Genesis 1.27, what

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is said there?

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God created man in his own image, and that is of course masculine singular man.

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In the image of God he created him, and again masculine singular.

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And then, and the ESV actually does a good job here because there's a semicolon after him,

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and then male and female he created them.

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Related matter, not the exact same thing, there is a distinction, even here, in the very

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beginning, between man and woman and the creation of man and woman.

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So what is woman made to do?

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She is made to be a help meet, she is made to help her husband, and there's actually

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some useful language from Luther here in his actually volume 1, in the American edition,

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because the first eight volumes are Luther's commentary on Genesis.

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So for Luther's commentary here for Genesis 1.27, I'll skip the first couple paragraphs

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here, they're just about similitude and image and comment on the sentences.

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But male and female he created them, and this is a quote from Luther.

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In order not to give the impression that he was excluding the woman from all the glory

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of the future life, Moses includes each of the two sexes.

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For the woman appears to be a somewhat different being from the man, having different members

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and a much weaker nature.

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Although Eve was a most extraordinary creature, similar to Adam so far as the image of God

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is concerned, that is, in justice, wisdom and happiness, she was nevertheless a woman.

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For as the son is more excellent than the moon, although the moon too was a very excellent

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body, so the woman, although she was the most beautiful work of God, nevertheless was

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not the equal of the male in glory and prestige.

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And so Luther properly recognizes that even in the garden, before the fall, in the state

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of perfection, woman is not equal to man.

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Men and women are different.

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The girl was made for the man, not vice versa.

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I think you mentioned early the transitive property, and I'm sure there are people listening

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who think that we are denying that women are made in the image of God.

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And that's not the point, but it's a subtle distinction that relies on the sort of

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reason that really isn't taught anymore that people don't understand, don't think in those terms.

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So when you say similar to and you say transitive property, what are you actually saying?

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What is the A to B and B to see doing in this scenario?

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The point that we are attempting to make is that if you say that two things are entirely equal,

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of course, well, that gets into the laws of logic then because two things that can't be

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distinguished are of course the same thing. But if man is made in the image of God,

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to be made in the image of God means something, it does not mean to be equal to God,

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it does not mean to be identical to God because of course it cannot mean that,

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because we are finite, God is infinite.

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And so if we are created in the image of God, we are a lesser creature than God.

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Woman is made in the image of man. Woman is a lesser creature than man.

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Still made in the image of God. Still partakes of if she is Christian, salvation and the eternal life,

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the good version of the eternal life, you do get the other one if you're not a Christian.

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But she is a lesser creature, but still made in the image of God.

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There's that difference there. It's important to note that difference.

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What is an image in the internet age? We just think of JPEGs.

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Frankly, that's about as far as people can take it. But when theologians talk about image,

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what does that mean? Well, we could actually go to the Greek here so we can perhaps address

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some potential pastoral detractors because what does it actually say in the Greek?

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Icona. It's an icon or an idol. Man is meant to image or to represent God in creation.

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So man is the pinnacle of creation. Man is at the top of the hierarchy. Man represents God

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to creation. And that is what man is supposed to do. And we still have this to some degree today.

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Yes, it is to some degree lost and corrupted because of the fall. But if you have a dog,

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particularly if you selected well and have a good breed, your dog is going to look to you.

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After a fashion, as if you were God, because your dog looks to you for everything good in his life,

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he looks to you for food, for shelter, for warmth, for care, affection,

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your dog looks to you as the representative of God in creation. So your dog is not necessarily

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looking exactly through you to God, but after a fashion, that is what's happening. And that is how

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woman properly interfaces and interacts with God because the wife is not the head. The husband is

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the head. And so the body interacts with the head, the head interacts with God. That's how things

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are supposed to work. There's a natural hierarchy there. There's a footnote reference that is also

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relevant from the same work in Lutheran references. Luther's later comments on marriage. And it's

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important to to bring this up as well, because I'm sure we'll discuss marriage a little more

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shortly. But what appears in the Latin text Luther was reading the Vulgate, as likened to himself

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is in Hebrew, which should be about him. With this expression, the text also makes a difference

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between the human female and the females of all the remaining animals, which are not always

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about their mates. The woman was so created that she should everywhere and always be about her

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husband. Thus imperial law also calls the life of married people an inseparable relationship.

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The female of the Brutes has a desire for the male only once in a whole year. But after she

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has become pregnant, she returns to her home and takes care of herself. For her young born another

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time, she has no concern, and she does not always live with her mate. But among men, the nature of

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marriage is different. There the wife so binds herself to a man that she will be about him and will

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live together with him as one flesh. And so there is this difference between man and the wild

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creatures. Now, perhaps the wild creatures were somewhat different before the fall, but

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his point about woman is very important to note. What does it say in Scripture about the wife?

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She is to obey her husband in everything as she would obey the Lord. That is an exceptionally

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high bar. And so woman is supposed to be about her husband, which makes perfect sense if you

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understand headship. Because the head is in charge. The body is supposed to follow the head. Your

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foot isn't supposed to tell you, no, I don't feel like going for a walk today. That's not how things

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are supposed to work. We were talking about this privately recently that until the last really

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two generations maybe, whenever a married woman was referenced by a third party, it was as Mrs.

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Robert Price. It was never by her first name. Sure, she didn't have her own distinct identity

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apart from her husband. And that's one of the things that feminism has sought in greater

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nessness for 100 years to cast down to ensure that every woman can be defined entirely apart from

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any man, whether it's her father or her husband or the absence of husband. The essence of feminism

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is ultimately that girls are first party members of everything and therefore must be granted

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all of the same privileges and ultimately the same authority that men have because we're all

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the same. And Christians hear those things that did not originate within Christianity. They hear

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them and they try to find in scripture where they can justify them. And so you end up people

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making an argument about the Amago Dei that, well, yes, women were made an image of God too. So

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of course they can do all these things. And that's why we're discussing this right up front is that

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the headship that predates the fall, the headship that is the very essence of the created order

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is not set of, it is, it's damaged by the fall. It is harmed in its unity by the fall,

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but is not set aside. And it's not set aside in redemption either when we are sanctified by Christ

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when we are a new creation as brothers in Christ in scripture refers to girls as brothers in

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Christ as well for the sake of inheritance, which is something we may not get to today. But if you

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read the passages where Paul deals with inheritance, he refers to everyone as a son of God, whether

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they're male or female, because inheritance had to belong to the man. And so these categories

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in these terms are not, they're not cultural things that we have just sort of read about recently

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online and decided that we need to fight over about the Bible. This is how scripture talks about

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what God has done in creation since the beginning. And these attacks coming from outside the church

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are fundamental attacks on creation itself. And I think as Lutherans, we're not good at

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defending attacks against creation because Lutheranism was defined when the attack was against

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sanctification and justification. And we were not fighting the Pope anymore, we're fighting,

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we're fighting people who deny the first three books of the Bible. And that that's part of this

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fight as well. You know, Satan doesn't sleep and he's realized that he can attack us

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at something that is tangential and yet still very much connected to the fight that we had

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centuries ago. And when it comes to the issue of the use of either the masculine or the feminine

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pronouns and such, there are those who will try to argue that, well, the masculine encompasses

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the feminine grammatically. And one, there's some irony there because these will be the same people

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who like to say she and he, they'll even go so far as to list both and list the feminine first,

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just completely throwing grammar aside. But they are correct that the masculine can encompass

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the feminine because as we've discussed previously in Latin, if there's a group of a thousand

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women and one man, you use the masculine because that's just how it works. And that's how it works

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in most languages typically. However, scripture does have places where it says he or she,

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effectively, because they man or woman. And so scripture is very clear when men and women are

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being addressed separately or when they are being addressed collectively. And so most of the

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scripture is in fact written with a male audience in mind. It is written toward men. And that is

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of course only right as we even recognize, of course, in the small catechism, as the head of the

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household should teach his household. Guess that's how it works. The head is supposed to teach.

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It's funny. You mentioned the the fact that we, we look at those language features as quirks,

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let's just the sexist, misogynistic past. When in reality, those ancient languages reflected

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headship, they reflected created order, they reflected a basic fundamental understanding of what

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we're trying to establish with this episode, which is that the presence of a man in a community,

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even if it's a one-to-many relationship with one man and lots of women, the man is in charge

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period by default. There cannot be an exception if you want to be godly and we're up against a lot

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of people, including a lot of pastors who just don't buy that. There are pastors who are very proud

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about the fact that they have girls teaching at synodical conferences, teachings theology to pastors.

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And I think it's the best thing ever. They're so delighted to be so progressive and so

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forward-looking in such celebrators of the quote-unquote gospel. When in reality, what they're doing is

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a abdicating their own offices on the spot and be defiling and mocking gods created order.

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And they're doing it in a very public way and they're doing it unrepentantly. And I pray that

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people will begin to take this issue more seriously because it's not, it's not a small

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linguistic matter and it's not about publishing books. It's about whether we submit to God

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and if we as all Christians submit to God, then all girls will submit to men in all cases.

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There's not a case where a girl cannot submit to a man. There's a question of order. There's

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a question of hierarchy and not every girl automatically submits to every man. But the factor

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remains, a man will always be in the lead and on top in the superior position. And as you

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mentioned, men are superior. And that's something that just sets the egalitarian mind on edge today

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because the idea that superior and inferior must necessarily reflect the value of those involved.

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And it's simply not the case. If you have a general and you have a colonel, the general is his

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superior. That's literally what it's called. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a better soldier.

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He might be. He should be. But it means that he is in the superior position and his authority

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must be obeyed because of his position. And what God has revealed in Scripture is that man

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is superior by virtue of the position that he holds in creation over all of it. And you mentioned

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earlier that man was over all of creation. That's why all of creation fell when when Jesus died

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in redeemed creation. He didn't just pay for our personal sins. He paid for the disobedient

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tree that he cursed that didn't produce fruit. And he paid for the wind that he had to rebuke

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because it was blowing and trying to kill them. All of creation fell. And while we wouldn't

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categorize the disobedience of creation as sin per se, it is the result of the fall. It's the

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result of everything that was under Adam's dominion having lost that proper order. And you will

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see, as you mentioned, there's there's a reflection of this thing where sometimes that order is

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still properly established where your dog should obey you and your dog shouldn't naturally obey

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you. But you must assert your superiority. And in dog training, one of the worst, really the

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worst mistake you can make is letting your dog run wild. If your dog is in charge, if your dog

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is calling the shots, he will think, well, there's a hierarchy and you're not on top. So I must be.

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And as soon as your dog realizes that he's going to run wild and you will never get him back under

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control. And that reality does not only apply to animals. It applies to people too, where there is

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an order and it is usurped. There's no way to get it properly restored without a lot of pain

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because everyone is like, well, hey, I was getting away with it. Why should I stop now?

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And we're at the tail end of a century or so of exactly that people just running entirely wild

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and doing as they please. And as you mentioned, egalitarianism, we have these priors, these

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presuppositions that we inherited from the Enlightenment and they go completely unexamined.

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And so this presupposition, this egalitarian prior, this belief that all men are created equal

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is just false. It is objectively, demonstrably false and we all know it because we have all been

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in a situation where someone was either significantly better or significantly worse at something

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than we were at the time. And so there are those who are significantly better at task A, those who

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are significantly better at task B. They're not equal with respect to those tasks at which they

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are better or worse. And the same thing is true of human attributes. There are those who are

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more intelligent. There are more those who are more attractive. There are all sorts of differences.

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Man to man is not equal. Man to woman is certainly not equal. And so these fundamentally flawed

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priors that we have imported from the secular world from objectively, aggressively, godless world

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are just corrupting the church because they go unexamined and even pastors have bought into them.

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And we see that like you mentioned when they have women stand up and speak at even worse teach,

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but just speaking at a pastor's conference. That is that enlightenment coming back to bite us because

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well, we are truly progressive and we are including women and you're not being inclusive. You're not

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being progressive and we can discuss whether progressive is even a good thing, but it's not is the

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short version. What you are doing is undermining what God built. You are undermining his order.

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You are being faithless if you are a pastor to your office. And actually I almost skipped over

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something that is worth mentioning with regard to Genesis 127 because we miss it in the English.

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And this is one of those cases where it actually surprisingly Hebrew helps a little bit

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because it's even more blatant what is being said in Genesis 127 in the Hebrew because we have

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of course Anthropone in the Greek, but what word is that translating from the Hebrew Adam?

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The word for man is Adam. So you have, he made the man Adam in his image.

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There is no missing what is being said there. Adam is the one who is made in the truest,

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strictest and highest sense in the image of God. And specifically Adam because all of us who

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followed after him are fallen until of course we get to the new Adam. Absolutely.

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You had mentioned or referred back to talking about the pastor's conferences and girls teaching

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pastors anything it's time to move on to defining what teaching is.

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First I just want to go over the fall because I want to point out something vitally important

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about women in the fall. And so of course in the fall God's cursing of creation. You have first

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the serpent who is essentially just dismissed. There's no discussion here because the serpent is

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just cursed because of course it's Satan. But to the woman he said, I will surely multiply your

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pain in childbearing. In pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband

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and he shall rule over you. But of course as has been mentioned a number of times by a number of

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commentators that your desire shall be for your husband is actually better rendered into the English

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as your desire shall be against your husband. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband.

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And so how is woman cursed? Woman is cursed in the same not the same exact way but in the same

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sense as man is cursed. Man is cursed with regard to the soil of course by the sweat of your face

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you shall eat bread because the curse falls on the core of the duties what that person is.

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And so man is cursed with regard to his work because work isn't supposed to be labor and toil.

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Work was something God made for us to do. It's one of the things we are supposed to do

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but it was not suffering before the fall. And so woman is cursed in two ways. Really one way to

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aspects of it. She is cursed with regard to womanhood, motherhood, and of course being a wife

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all tied together. She is cursed in regard to being a mother by having childbearing be painful.

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It is now a process that will come at a cost that was not the case before the fall. And so that

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strikes at the core of what woman is supposed to be which is wife and mother. And so the desire

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against your husband strikes at that other aspect, the central aspect of being a wife because

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first wife then mother. And so woman after the fall desires to rule. She desires to usurp the

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office that rightly belongs to her husband. She desires to become head. And that is the case

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even for women who are attempting to live as they ought and to behave as they ought.

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Those women will struggle against that sinful nature in themselves and will try to suppress

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the desire to usurp the office of their husbands, to actually submit to their husbands as they

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are commanded to do and as they would have been able to do without effort prior to the fall.

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But today of course, it requires effort on the part of both the woman and the man.

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And man's head of course has the higher duty. He has to keep the women in his life under control.

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That is part of what it means to be the head. That is part of what it means to be a man.

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As you mentioned there, I just want to reiterate this because it's so important.

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And man's work was cursed. His work is a ground. Woman's work is cursed. Her work is childbearing

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and obviously child rearing, raising children. Her work is in cursed in the field because she

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shouldn't properly be in the field. The man should be providing. Yes, there's that too.

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There's two types of working the field that man does. Woman is a field. Indeed.

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And to get back to what I said about feminism, it exists to upend all of this, all of it.

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First wave, second wave, there's no version of the pro-female machinations in the secular or

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religious well realm. They can be sanctified. You cannot take Scripture and take 19th and 20th

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century values and somehow legitimize them. And that's something we'll get into in a little bit.

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But there's the genealogy these ideas that we need to take seriously because people want to

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just grab whatever from the world, which is something that we were actually accused of tonight

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by one of the pastors on Twitter of just sort of borrowing cultural things and importing them

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into Christianity. Nothing to be further from the truth. All we're doing is pointing to Scripture.

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We're having to point to Scripture about the issue of girls teaching and girls writing books

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in doing this other work that rightly belongs to men exclusively because, as you said, even

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well-meeting, well-intentioned, otherwise faithful Christian men and women

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have been so secularized that they don't know they're being secular. They don't know that they're

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being worldly when they whitenite for girls who are doing things that they shouldn't be doing.

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And when a man speaks up and says, hey, that's not your job.

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There's a dog pile against the man who's pointing to Scripture in defense of a girl who is usurping

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her father, her son, her husband, and God himself.

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And it just comes back to we live at the tail end of generations of faithlessness. And that is a

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very hard thing to undo because you have these presuppositions and these priors and indoctrination.

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It's not even right to call it education over a course of decades, almost a century,

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generations where they have just wholesale adopted the secular culture.

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And that comes out everywhere. Just look at the, you could look at the timeline and see what happens.

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Well, we have the 19th Amendment. Now women are able to exercise political power, which of course

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is an exercise of headship. And we can discuss whether it's right for all men to exercise that

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even. Of course, it's not, but it is absolutely wrong for women to exercise it. And what does the

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church do in response? Well, now women can vote in our congregations. It follows the culture.

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It doesn't follow Scripture. It doesn't listen because we know what the church is. The church is a

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harlot. The church rebels against Christ in the same way Eve rebels against Adam in the same

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way woman rebels against man. And Christ has to bring the church back to himself. Man has to

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bring woman back to himself. It is that constant fight against that fallen nature until things are

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perfected in the new creation. Absolutely. And I, I think one of the problems that we struggle with

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is that so many pastors and others want to define these battles and terms of the quote unquote

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culture war as though there's somehow this political sphere that exists sort of in the in the

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periphery or in the distance. And people are importing political things into the church and into

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the Christian life. And it's sometimes it's causing harm and sometimes it's doing good. And what

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happens is when everyone has a tendency to think, well, I'm a Christian. And I'm not sorry for

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anything I'm doing right now. Therefore everything I'm doing right now and everything I believe

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must be Christian because I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible. So it's not possible for me to be

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disobeying God in an idolatrous and wicked way because I love God. And that is the exact

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opposite of what Christians should be thinking. And frankly, it's what we're accused. I've

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worked used of ignoring what Scripture says in doing what we want. And I personally find that

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laughable because if I were to invent a religion, it would absolutely not be Christianity. If I wanted

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to make up my own rules, there would be a lot more some things and a lot less of others. It would

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not look like what we do. This is not self-serving. When I open Scripture to any page, I see myself

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in my own personal sims condemned. And so it's no surprise to me when I examine my priors after

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decades of believing, for example, things like libertarianism were fine. I never examine those

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priors. They were sold to me by Christians. There were Christians who said, oh, yeah, this is great.

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This is fine. It's political. It's totally consistent with God's word. It's in this separate

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sphere. So to have fun, it's better than communism. Like, well, I don't like communism. So libertarian

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ism must be fine. And so when we escape from examining our priors rigorously as they relate

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to Scripture, you can justify anything. And the problem is what we're facing now is that

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proof texting is a terrible thing. And it's something that's easy to do and it's hard to get

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away from. But it's why I mentioned the genealogy of ideas earlier. And also we both talked about the

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timeline of these things. There's a timeline of what women have done in the church, what women

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have done in the home, what women have done in the workplace. In every century, where Christianity

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exists, you will see roles of a certain nature. Like I said, the outset, Mrs. Robert Price was

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married to Mr. Robert Price or Dr. Robert Price. Her identity was as her husband's wife,

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first and foremost, to him. He didn't call her Mrs. Robert Price because she belonged to him.

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He called her in a much more personal way, but strangers or those who were not intimately

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familiar as they were should not do that. And that was the norm until our grandparents basically.

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And what's happening everywhere now is this is a Lutheran problem. This is a societal problem.

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And it's the reason that the quote-unquote based and trad crowd constantly gets dragged by

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these pastors is that we're skipping right over all the crap that they've been selling us

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and their grandparents have been selling us. And we're looking back to prior centuries. And

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I think that Lutherans are particularly vulnerable to rejecting appeals to history because Rome did

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it to us when Luther popped up and is like, Hey, I'm reading the Bible and I'm not finding this

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stuff you're teaching. I think we're doing it wrong. Their argument was, well, we've been doing this

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for forever. The church has always believed this and said, you're wrong. And he said, but scripture

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says otherwise. And then his others have mentioned he and he and the other Lutherans basically invented

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a pitristics to demonstrate that no actually many in the church didn't believe what we believe

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in the 16th century and today. And it was in fact Rome who had departed from tradition.

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So tradition appeals are not per se invalid, but they are, they can either be good or bad.

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They always need to be examined in terms of their priors. And the priors in Latin and Greek and

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these other languages were that women had headship under men. The woman was the body that man was the

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head. And so that's reflected even in the most basically linguistic elements. It's reflected in

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job roles of which the woman existed in the home to be helped me to her husband in his household

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for his, his vocation, whatever it was. She was to act and service to that and everything that she

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did. A woman is given by the father to the husband to be married. And that is a transfer of title

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that no one wants to deal with today. But even the even the forms of the ceremony and the ways

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we describe things, at least until very recently, reflected the past that the fact that the headship

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went from the father to the husband. And that is godly and that is proper. And wherever you have

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girls acting in a way that is contrary to the dominion of either a husband or a father,

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whatever they do after that is inherently illegitimate because they're in rebellion. They're

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in open rebellion by virtue of their life. And that's also the norm today. And we see pastors

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worrying about, well, where do I send my girl to college? And we beg them, please, please don't.

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Don't send them to college. Your daughter will become a whore in college, even if she goes to

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a Lutheran college. And it was like, oh, no, well, the Christian colleges are fine. It's the

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it's those pagans like, no, it isn't. It is rebellion for her to leave your household without

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being sent to a man's house to be his husband. And because we've spent so many decades in

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now centuries in engaging in some of these activities that we think that since we're Christian,

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it must be fine. When in fact, we're Christian, we've been told better when the world hasn't.

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And not only we disobey God, but we are setting the worst example for others. And so when the

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based and trad crowd looks at what our own churches are teaching today, and they see it's inconsistent

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with scripture and with the history of the Christian church, they just look elsewhere because

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we don't look Christian to them in they're not wrong. It's absolutely true. And we have the

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serious problem where we actually have pagans who are being more faithful in some ways than Christians.

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Of course, they're wrong when it comes to the core theological questions. They're wrong,

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obviously, unjustification and soteriology. They don't understand those things. But when it comes

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to ontology, when it comes to creation, when it comes to the nature of God, there are a lot of

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pagans who understand it a lot better than most Christians, including many pastors. And that is not

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what we need to have happening. We cannot permit that because as you mentioned, what does that do?

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It drives all the young men out of the church. And if you drive all the young men out of the church,

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you have killed the church. The church cannot exist with just women. That's not a church.

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The church has to have men, not least of all because only men can be pastors, but also because men

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as head have to be the ones in charge, have to be the ones who are teaching. And some men

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are simply resorting to permitting women to do these things because those men are lazy. They are

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derelict in their duty. They don't want to have to do the things they are supposed to do. So they

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figured, well, women are good enough at it. Or even if you find a woman who is better at it,

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it is still the man's duty to do the task if it falls within the things assigned to man.

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But those men don't want to do it because it's so much easier if you just let women do it. And you

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don't have to fight with them then. Woman is naturally rebellious. You are going to have to

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train a woman. You're going to have to train a wife. You are going to have to deal with this constant

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desire she has because she is a fallen creature. And the curse that she has is rebellion

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against rightful authority. You have to deal with that. And most men, today at least don't want to

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have to deal with it. And you don't have to deal with it if you just let her do whatever she wants.

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But if you let her do whatever she wants, she will tear down everything. She will tear down society

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and the church. And we see that happening. And she will do that even when she is well-meaning

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because the very act itself is usurpation. It has nothing to do with good intentions.

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It has nothing to do with how well she knows the catechism or loves Jesus. If she's doing these

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things, she is acting in an evil way per se. And that must be stopped per se.

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And that is one thing that so many pastors and others do not understand or at least refuse to

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accept. You can do something that for all appearances is a great thing. It is a good thing.

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But because of who you are, because of the actor, because of the nature, the status of the actor,

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the act itself is evil. And pastors should understand that. As should every Christian,

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particularly Lutherans, because our doctrine on this is exactly correct, is perfectly sound.

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If you do good works and you are not a Christian, they are sin. If you go out and feed the homeless,

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you provide them with shelter, you clothe them, you visit people in prison, you do all of these

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wonderful things, but you aren't a Christian. They're filthy rags. It's sin. None of it is good.

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If you are a Christian, the sin that taints those things is removed, is not counted against you

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because you are in Christ, again, headship. And because you are in Christ, your good works are good.

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And so it is the status of the individual that matters. And so woman cannot exercise headship.

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No matter how well she may do it, you can have someone who is extremely good at the task

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and is still prohibited from engaging in that task. And we just look at it because we,

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at least in the US, we're largely coming at it with this capitalist mindset of what we should

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just pick the person who is best at the job and that person should do it. And that's just not how

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it works because there are certain people who should or should not do the job. And so, for instance,

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you should not have female soldiers. Is there possibly a woman who is a better soldier than a

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particular man? Yes, that could happen. Not often, most women are terrible soldiers compared to men,

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but you could conceivably find one who is better. But it would still be sin for her to be a soldier,

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it would still be sin to permit it because that is a task that is restricted to men. Women should not

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be engaged in it. And so we have to understand ontology, the nature of things. And of course, duty.

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Absolutely. So let's talk about teaching. That's why we're here today.

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Teaching gets to the heart of the Lutheran conception of vocation. Lutherans have this correct

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doctrine of vocation. There is the same as vocal. It means a calling. In this case, a calling from

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God. It means that God both created you and then called you to a purpose. So there are vocations

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like father and husband of being a pastor as a vocation, being a mother as a vocation.

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When God calls you into a vocation, there are certain duties that go along with it. And you are

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to fulfill those duties, not because it's the job, but because it is your duty to God. You have been

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entrusted with the care of whatever that duty is and is obedience to God for a man or a woman

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to faithfully execute those duties in his or her vocation. So as we mentioned in the part about

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Genesis, there are vocations that rightly, strictly can only belong to men. That which is work,

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that which is outside the household, you will find that those both inscripture and elsewhere

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rightly belong to men and a girl will not be called to them by God. She may be thrust into them

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by evil circumstance or she may be usurping interactions. But if she ends up wearing one of

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those hats, it's because she and others have disobeyed God. And so the question that arose on

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Twitter in the last few weeks and elsewhere is, is it teaching to write a book? Is it teaching

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for a girl to write a book? Is it pastoral teaching for a girl to write a theological book?

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So the first thing we need to talk about is whether teaching is inherently done with authority.

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And this is where the Lutheran doctrine of vocation completely falls apart. I'm going to say

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some things here. They'll probably make a lot of Lutherans very angry because they'll be

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uncomfortable with the idea that maybe the way we talk about things can lead to error. But that's

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exactly what's out going on here. And we've seen a left and right from especially pastors

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discussing the intersection of the passage in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 regarding

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the proper role of women in the church. I have the first Timothy 2 section pulled up your

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space. We'll read it so at least we remind people of what it says. Hopefully most of our audience

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will be familiar with it, but nevertheless, I desire then that in every place the men should

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pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. Likewise also that women should adorn

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themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and

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gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness with good

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works. That a woman learn quietly in all submissiveness, I do not permit a woman to teach or to

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exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve,

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and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor, yet she will be

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saved through childbearing if they continue in faith. Now there's just, I was going to point out

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there are a lot of things in there that need to be addressed because there are so many places

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that modern Christians and unfortunately many pastors go off the rails. One in particular,

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I'll address before we move on to the next part of this, nowhere in there does it say this is

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restricted to the church. Nothing in there says it's restricted to the church. In fact, what does it

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say? I desire then that in every place, it doesn't say in every church, just in the church,

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in houses of worship, in every Christian home. No, it says every place. These are instructions

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for life and the appeal is to the order of creation to the nature of men and women. It is not

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simply a set of rules for how we conduct things in the church. This is a statement about the reality

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of the world in which we live, the reality of man and woman, and just how things should be

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conducted, if we are to be Christians in our lives and not just for an hour on Sunday.

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Absolutely. If you were to look at that list of things that God commands through

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Paul's writing and limit it to one hour during the divine service on Sunday, you would create

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hell on earth. If we're going to be given a world where all these things are permissible for

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everyone except when they're in church, you have destroyed civilization. And frankly, we're not

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far from it when you go through that list of things. As you said, they're all happening.

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They're happening outside of church. And then, of course, they're being brought into church

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because when Christians fail to listen to God, when Christians are ashamed of what God has said,

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and they backpedal, and they circumscribe, and they narrow down God's law until they're so

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little of it left that pretty much anyone can buy into it. Satan is one. And that is what we are

47:30.040 --> 47:37.400
battling today. And the reason that I said that the Lutheran doctrine of vocation falls apart.

47:37.400 --> 47:43.560
It's for that very reason. Is it because Timothy is a pastoral epistle and around that,

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Paul is describing things within the church. Christians read that and say, well, this can only

47:50.200 --> 47:55.320
apply to the church because I don't want to deal with the implications of it not applying to the

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church. If it applies to the grocery store, if it applies to the school, if it applies to

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the government, then we're in trouble. I'm in trouble because I am participating in sin.

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And I know that I am free from sin. That's kind of where we are. And it's simply false.

48:14.520 --> 48:21.480
It's interesting to note that grammatically, the Holy Spirit says,

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little women learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not a woman permit a woman to teach or

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to exercise authority. So teaching is separate from exercising authority because there are

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kinds of exercising authority that are not teaching. But it is also connected in the same sense

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because teaching is a form of the exercise of authority. And that's been one of the roots of

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the argument online that I want to address now. When a Lutheran thinks about authority,

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we think about it in terms of vocation. So we think father, we think husband, we think teacher

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in a classroom or a pastor over his flock or a prince over his dominion. And those are all

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vocations where God has called a particular person, a particular man to a place has given him a

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domain, has given him people under his care. And rebellion against that authority is sin

49:22.360 --> 49:27.720
all by itself. If you disobey your father and he is not doing something is

49:28.680 --> 49:35.800
if assuming that he is not directly contributing God, your disobedience to your father is disobedience

49:35.800 --> 49:42.840
to God because of his authority as your father. So when Lutheran think about vocation, they think

49:42.920 --> 49:50.520
that will all authority stems from and flows from vocation. And that's simply not true because

49:50.520 --> 49:55.720
there are two kinds of authority. And this is something that we all understand naturally. And I'll

49:55.720 --> 50:02.840
give you the example of this very podcast is Corey and I are speaking to you. We are teaching.

50:02.840 --> 50:09.720
We are exercising authority. How so? Because I have the microphone and you have the speakers.

50:10.360 --> 50:17.960
I am actively speaking and you are passively listening. I am giving and you are receiving.

50:17.960 --> 50:24.920
That is inherently authority per se just by virtually virtue of the structure of the thing.

50:25.480 --> 50:32.600
Now that is not to suggest that if you disagree with me, you're you're sinning, you're transgressing

50:32.600 --> 50:39.320
against God because this is the type of authority where although it is inherent in the act,

50:39.320 --> 50:44.120
it does not compel submission except through the veracity of its claims.

50:44.840 --> 50:52.120
So if I sit here and talk and I cite scripture and you agree with what I say about scripture,

50:52.760 --> 50:59.240
you're doing that because the Holy Spirit acting in you hears the voice of God in the way I'm

50:59.240 --> 51:05.560
framing something, not that I'm a prophet, not that I'm speaking as God, but that I'm saying what

51:05.560 --> 51:12.360
God says in God within you hears and says, yes, I believe that. That's between you and God. If you

51:12.360 --> 51:17.240
agree with that, you're not submitting to me, you're submitting to God. And if you disagree with it,

51:18.040 --> 51:22.840
if I'm wrong, then you're just disagreeing with me. If I'm right, you're disagreeing with me and

51:22.840 --> 51:29.160
God, but your only sin would be against God because the authority of my speech does not extend to

51:29.160 --> 51:36.280
condemnation of someone who doesn't like it. There are lots of examples of this in the world.

51:36.280 --> 51:45.240
If you go to a lecture, whoever the lecture is is standing. He's typically standing behind a podium.

51:45.240 --> 51:51.880
It's raised. You are seated. You're lower than him. Every physical element of the process of

51:51.880 --> 51:59.080
teaching reinforces the authority of the speaker and the submission of the listener.

51:59.960 --> 52:04.520
Now, in the case of teaching, there are also actually two different kinds of teaching. I had

52:04.520 --> 52:13.240
mentioned that teacher is a vocation. It is a vocation in the realm where a student goes to a classroom,

52:13.240 --> 52:20.600
the teacher takes attendance. In that case, the student has been assigned to that teacher by the

52:20.600 --> 52:26.040
school system by the parents, whatever. There is a one-to-many relationship of the teacher to the

52:26.040 --> 52:33.640
students, but there is a relationship of authority and accountability because the teacher has a

52:33.640 --> 52:39.240
responsibility for the performance of the students. And that is unlike a lecture, that is unlike a

52:39.240 --> 52:45.880
podcast, and that is unlike a book where there is also a one-to-many relationship. But the many

52:45.960 --> 52:54.360
are typically anonymous. There is no accountability from the one to God to make sure that the many

52:55.160 --> 53:01.080
cue to whatever has been said. So the authority is very limited, but nevertheless it is authority

53:01.080 --> 53:10.360
for a man to stand up and pronounce something is done as an act of authority.

53:10.360 --> 53:14.360
Now, maybe usurpation, depending on vocation. There may be cases where, you know,

53:14.360 --> 53:20.120
for example, in the middle of a church service where the pastor is speaking, he's preaching.

53:20.120 --> 53:24.200
If some man stands up in the middle of the service and starts arguing with him,

53:25.160 --> 53:33.400
he's the man is acting with authority, but it's evil. It's a bad type of usurpation

53:33.400 --> 53:39.800
because you're usurping that which the pastor is rightly doing, even if the pastor is wrong.

53:40.600 --> 53:45.240
They're very limited circumstances where it would ever be permissible to do that. I wouldn't say

53:45.240 --> 53:49.400
this should never be done, but there should be so struck, stored, so extraordinary that you should

53:49.400 --> 53:54.600
probably never hear about it. One would hope. Basically, they'd have to be outright heresy.

53:55.240 --> 54:02.120
Yeah, and that does occur, but God willing, it won't happen in our church as at least for a while.

54:02.760 --> 54:08.360
So the reason for pointing out that there are two different kinds of authority and teaching

54:08.360 --> 54:14.440
is to get to the heart of what has been discussed online about girls writing books and girls

54:14.440 --> 54:19.800
writing theology books, because that's exactly what's happening in the Missouri Senate today,

54:19.800 --> 54:26.200
and has been going on for quite some time. Concordia Posh publishing now, CPH is an arm of the

54:26.200 --> 54:33.240
Missouri Senate. It is a holy captive business that belongs to the corporation of the LCMS.

54:33.240 --> 54:39.320
It's a business entity, and this is a game that gets played whenever these questions come up.

54:40.040 --> 54:45.560
On one hand, everything that CPH publishes must go through doctrinal review,

54:46.520 --> 54:52.440
because CPH is the church for the purposes of publishing things that should be sound doctrine.

54:53.880 --> 55:01.400
But when men stand up and say, hey, but we have girls teaching, suddenly the church says,

55:01.400 --> 55:06.760
it's just a publishing, it's like print on demand. They can say what they say, and it's not the

55:06.760 --> 55:13.880
church saying it, and you just need to settle down and quit hating women, which is not what anyone

55:13.880 --> 55:21.160
has said at any point. What has been said is that, again, there are several tiers of this question,

55:21.960 --> 55:29.240
is the publishing house that belongs to a church teaching? Now, the Missouri Senate

55:29.240 --> 55:33.160
played lots of games I don't even want to get into, because I just find them disgusting. But

55:33.160 --> 55:37.640
the answer is yes or no, depending on how you want to interpret it, it's all whistling.

55:38.280 --> 55:43.800
The more basic question, which is what we want to talk about, is whether publishing a book

55:43.800 --> 55:50.680
period is teaching. And again, first Timothy says that teaching is exercising of authority.

55:51.720 --> 55:57.720
And that is the point that I'm trying to make. And when the pastor say, well, no, it can't be

55:58.680 --> 56:02.920
not all teaching can be with authority because it doesn't touch on the pastoral office.

56:02.920 --> 56:07.720
The point that we're trying to make is it doesn't matter because that section of first Timothy

56:07.720 --> 56:15.000
is not about the pastoral office. It is not about what pastors do in the pulpit versus what the

56:15.000 --> 56:22.120
lady are permitted to do, whether male or female. The question is much more fundamental. And this is

56:22.120 --> 56:26.520
where Lutherans have gotten, we just become retarded. We don't understand these ontological

56:26.600 --> 56:33.160
questions of what is the root of the authority to do this. And thank God for telling us right in

56:33.160 --> 56:42.600
the text that the order of creation is the revealed nature of the difference. Eve was deceived.

56:43.160 --> 56:47.400
Now that's that's profound. If you're talking about girls publishing theological books,

56:47.400 --> 56:52.280
God said it wasn't Adam who was tricked by Satan. It was the girl who was tricked by Satan.

56:52.360 --> 56:57.320
And that is the reason why girls can't teach. And for pastors to stand up and say, well,

56:57.320 --> 57:01.800
that just means in church, or that just means, you know, maybe not theological books or certain

57:01.800 --> 57:06.680
kinds of theological books, but maybe not the really hardcore ones. It's nonsense. If a girl

57:06.680 --> 57:13.080
is teaching, and she is the one who was deceived by Satan, she is usurping the created order

57:13.080 --> 57:18.760
by opening her mouth. And this is where the egalitarian thing really just causes everyone to have

57:18.760 --> 57:26.920
a meltdown. The bottom line is very simple. If you are a girl, your will should be expressed

57:26.920 --> 57:32.120
through your father or through your husband. You should not have a public will expressed in any

57:32.120 --> 57:37.080
other way. That is headship. His query talked about, you know, the foot doesn't decide where to go.

57:37.080 --> 57:43.160
The foot doesn't talk. The mouth is on the head. The head speaks. And that's the reason that

57:43.160 --> 57:47.960
it's Mrs. Robert Price and not whatever her name was. I don't even have to know her name. I know

57:47.960 --> 57:55.640
she was Mrs. Robert Price. She was his wife. There's not a permissible circumstance under which

57:55.640 --> 58:03.640
a woman has her views of expressed in public. And that was the root of the 19th amendment. It's

58:03.640 --> 58:08.520
the root of all of this. It's the root of the feminist attack on the created order for the last

58:08.520 --> 58:14.200
hundred and however many years is to say, you know what? Girls, you know, it's girl power. Girls

58:14.280 --> 58:18.760
are going to express themselves. They're going to make their mark. They're going to do those things

58:18.760 --> 58:25.080
which they are capable of doing. And that's another part of the argument is that as Cory mentioned,

58:25.080 --> 58:30.200
you know, you said that it's not about whether or not they are good at it. And honestly, I think one

58:30.200 --> 58:36.280
of the reasons that a lot of these pastors are so willing to embrace all these girls doing

58:36.280 --> 58:41.400
stuff in their churches is that inside they know that they should never have been ordained.

58:41.400 --> 58:45.560
I think they know that they're not competent. And when they see the teaching abilities of some

58:45.560 --> 58:53.560
of the girls in their under their care, under their superior rule, they're ashamed because they

58:53.560 --> 58:59.000
can't do as well as the girls under them. And rather than trying to be by their pastors or maybe

58:59.000 --> 59:03.560
stepping down and saying, you know what? I'm not fit for this office. Instead, they choose to you

59:03.560 --> 59:08.680
serve God's order by elevating girls to do the job that God has tasked them with doing.

59:09.640 --> 59:16.040
There's that. And there is also they know that if they promote women, or at least they believe

59:16.040 --> 59:21.640
that if they promote women in today's society, it's true, that that will insulate them from criticism

59:21.640 --> 59:26.440
from others because look at how progressive I'm being. And I am including women. And I'm doing all

59:26.440 --> 59:32.040
these things that the culture loves which that should set off alarm bells for any Christian. But

59:32.040 --> 59:38.520
they do that because then they're insulated from being criticized by other men. And if they

59:38.520 --> 59:44.360
were instead selecting competent men in their congregations, which unless they've absolutely failed

59:44.360 --> 59:48.600
as a pastor, they should have those in their churches because they don't necessarily want to

59:48.600 --> 59:55.240
select the men because that's competition, which is not how a man would actually see it. Yes,

59:55.240 --> 59:59.880
competition is healthy and it's a good thing. But ultimately, I'm not trying to destroy you

59:59.880 --> 01:00:04.920
if I'm teaching and I'm better at teaching a particular subject. It's simply a recognition that

01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:09.320
God has given me certain abilities. God has given you certain abilities and they should be used

01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:20.040
to serve the church. And we don't, but modern Christians try to weasel around everything in

01:00:20.040 --> 01:00:26.760
scripture. Lutherans do this with some things. Thankfully, we do not do it when it comes to

01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:33.160
justification, when it comes to sanctification, when it comes to these core issues that we got

01:00:33.160 --> 01:00:40.520
absolutely right 500 years ago. And we have held correctly for 500 years, which thanks be to God

01:00:40.520 --> 01:00:47.800
that we have those. But that doesn't excuse us when it comes to all these other issues that

01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:53.160
if we don't get them wrong, we certainly don't get them right. And the CTCR and those who have

01:00:53.160 --> 01:00:59.320
crafted some of the documents made in the 60s definitely got them wrong. And so we have the

01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:05.880
injunctions in 1 Timothy that relate to creation that relate to things. How they are supposed to be

01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:12.280
in a Christian society. What Christians should attempt to create wherever they live? Well, we also

01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:19.880
have 1 Corinthians, which addresses the church explicitly. So we have society generally and the

01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:25.960
church explicitly. Well, what is 1 Corinthians say to women? As in all the churches of the saints,

01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:31.080
the women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be

01:01:31.080 --> 01:01:37.160
in submission as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their

01:01:37.160 --> 01:01:44.760
husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. This could not possibly

01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:52.280
be more clear. It says that women are to be silent in the churches. It does not say that women are

01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:59.320
supposed to speak only if the pastor permits it or the pastor wants to have women lecturers or

01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:05.640
anything like that. No, women are to be silent in the church. Women should not be heard in the church.

01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:12.440
And yes, that applies to the Bible study as well as to the service. As much as we'd like to think

01:02:12.440 --> 01:02:17.000
that, oh, well, it's just no, don't weasel out of it by saying it's just the service. Where does it

01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:22.760
say just during the liturgy? Where does it say just during the service of the sacrament? Where does

01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:27.240
it say just during the service of the word? It doesn't say that anywhere because it says women are to

01:02:27.240 --> 01:02:33.800
be silent in the churches. Period. No exceptions. And now, of course, you'll have those who try to wiggle

01:02:33.800 --> 01:02:41.160
out of it by saying, well, a woman's not speaking if she writes a book. Yes, she is. If I write something

01:02:41.160 --> 01:02:47.160
and someone else reads it, I'm speaking in his head. That's what that is. So if I write a book

01:02:47.160 --> 01:02:54.360
and it is then used by a pastor to teach his sheep, I am teaching his sheep. I am exercising

01:02:54.360 --> 01:02:59.880
authority. And so if a woman writes a book and the pastor uses that in church, that woman is

01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:06.360
exercising authority over those sheep and that pastor is facilitating it. So he is now participating

01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:12.120
in her sin and making it worse because of his office and what he should be doing. And he,

01:03:12.120 --> 01:03:17.560
as a rightful head, is going to be held to a higher standard. And pastors should tremble at the

01:03:17.560 --> 01:03:22.040
fact that yes, you have opted for the stricter judgment. Maybe worry about that a little more.

01:03:24.120 --> 01:03:30.440
And that's a vital point is that this podcast is us speaking with authority. We may be completely

01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:35.080
wrong. That doesn't mean we're not speaking authority authoritatively. It means that we're

01:03:35.080 --> 01:03:38.440
sinning if we're in error because we're saying things that are lies.

01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:45.160
The example you gave of these pastors who say that they're excited to take these books published

01:03:45.160 --> 01:03:52.920
by girls and teach them in their congregations takes the other kind of authority and directly

01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:59.160
applies it because the crucial difference between you and I and a pastor is that we don't have a

01:03:59.160 --> 01:04:05.800
caller. When we speak, we do not bind consciences. And we see this every day whenever we've said

01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:11.480
anything online for years, we get dog piled by people who'd never give us the best construction.

01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:15.080
We're told that we're not brothers in Christ. We're told that we're evil. We're told

01:04:15.080 --> 01:04:23.720
every malign thing possible has been said about us directly for citing scripture. And frankly,

01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:31.160
that's okay. The point is that when I speak, when you speak, we don't bind anyone's conscience

01:04:31.160 --> 01:04:37.160
unless the Holy Spirit binds their conscience because although speaking has authority inherent

01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:43.640
to itself, that ends the moment that the person is done listening or reading because they go

01:04:43.640 --> 01:04:48.920
and process it and they decide, am I going to believe this or not? That's not the case when a pastor

01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:55.160
speaks. And that's not the case when a pastor sanctifies teaching that's usurping the order of

01:04:55.160 --> 01:05:02.040
creation by a girl doing it. When he does it, a pastor binds consciences. Anything a pastor says,

01:05:02.040 --> 01:05:07.400
where these wearing his collar or not says, this is what God says. It's implicit. And a lot of these

01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:13.240
guys are afraid of that because they know that the strict for judgment awaits. And so they just

01:05:13.240 --> 01:05:17.000
think, well, either, you know, it's on Twitter. So it's not really a big deal or I'm not going to

01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:21.000
say what I think because I don't want to get in trouble or cause a cause of kerfuffle.

01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:29.240
When these pastors sanctify usurpation of God's order, they are sinning. They're sinning against

01:05:29.240 --> 01:05:34.600
their flock. They're sinning against God. They're acting an idolatrous way and an evil way.

01:05:36.520 --> 01:05:40.520
I think as we're getting to the end of their time in this first episode, I want to point out that

01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:48.200
part of the reason that we chose the name stone choir is from the verse where Jesus describes

01:05:48.200 --> 01:05:53.960
how the very stones would cry out when the Pharisees implored him to silence his followers.

01:05:54.440 --> 01:06:00.120
The Pharisees were tired of Jesus followers praising him and giving adoration to his word.

01:06:00.600 --> 01:06:05.000
And Jesus understanding the vocation of a follower better than any man could

01:06:05.640 --> 01:06:12.440
under also understands creation itself. And Jesus told the Pharisees, if I tell my people to stop

01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:18.840
confessing me and to stop praising me, it will be creation itself. It will be a stone whose vocation

01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:24.520
is to just sit there silently and be a stone and do nothing. They would literally cry out. And

01:06:24.520 --> 01:06:29.800
that wasn't figurative. That wasn't a metaphor. Any more than bayonet Balum's donkey speaking to warn

01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:36.840
him was true. These stones would literally cry out if every man went silent. So the reason

01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:43.800
that we chose that name for this podcast is that you and I are layman. We have no vocation to speak

01:06:43.800 --> 01:06:51.480
apart from that vocation of Christian of Christian man of Christian man who has been given the aptitude

01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:57.800
and the discernment to read these things and to understand them and to explain them in a way

01:06:57.800 --> 01:07:04.840
that is accessible to any many people. And for all the pastors who accuse us of being cowards

01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:10.760
and being trolls and ogres and all sorts of other nonsense, the bottom line is this what we are

01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:16.440
saying is what scripture is saying. And I will tell Hans and all the other guys that the reason

01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:21.640
that that conversation started a few weeks ago was downstream from conversations that you and I

01:07:22.600 --> 01:07:28.360
have had. And our churches are full filled with men who agree with you and agree with me, Corey.

01:07:28.360 --> 01:07:35.320
And we're not usurping. In our own congregations, we don't pick fights. We don't cause trouble.

01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:41.880
What we do is we step forward. So in all these cases where we see girls usurping, whether they

01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:47.560
deliberately usurper not, when they're acting is ushers and lectures and all these other things,

01:07:48.200 --> 01:07:54.520
the men who agree with us, rather than arguing with those girls, they're stepping forward in the

01:07:54.520 --> 01:08:00.520
church. We are doing those things that men have advocated. And that's fundamentally the root of

01:08:00.520 --> 01:08:08.360
all of this. From start to finish, the only reason that a girl would ever write a book or try to

01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:15.320
be an elder or a lector or any of the other things that goes on is if a man has failed to do so.

01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:22.520
And by our publishing house, publishing all these books by girls, what the LCMS is saying is that

01:08:22.520 --> 01:08:27.320
there are no pastors to say these things. There are no pastors to teach. We need girls to teach

01:08:27.320 --> 01:08:33.720
our theology now. We need girls to teach anything because there are no men to do it. And that's

01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:40.520
simply not the case. This got his blessed Lutheranism and his blessed Christianity outside Lutheranism

01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:46.600
with faithful Christians who hear his word and obey it, even in the face of the most vicious and

01:08:46.600 --> 01:08:53.720
murderous slander. And we are speaking out, we start of this podcast and we will continue to speak

01:08:53.720 --> 01:08:58.840
as long as pastors run faithful, as long as we're the only voices who are saying these things to

01:08:58.840 --> 01:09:04.520
need to be said, we will be here saying them. It was hilarious that earlier this evening, Hans

01:09:05.400 --> 01:09:10.040
posted that thread where he basically said, yeah, for 50 years, all these problems have been going

01:09:10.040 --> 01:09:14.760
on in the church and no one said anything until these anonymous cowards started this fight.

01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:21.080
But they have a good point. Well, that's exactly why a lot of guys are anonymous. And that's why

01:09:21.080 --> 01:09:26.920
Cory and I are never going to pursue the pastoral office despite the fact that virtually every pastor,

01:09:26.920 --> 01:09:32.200
both of us have ever talked to his in our first conversation with them. I haven't pastors

01:09:32.280 --> 01:09:37.720
interrupt me after 15 minutes saying you should go to seminary. That's the kind of men that we are

01:09:37.720 --> 01:09:43.160
in person. And all these guys that think that we're stupid or we're evil or we're up to no good,

01:09:43.880 --> 01:09:47.400
not only are they being uncharitable in slanders, but they're also just wrong.

01:09:48.760 --> 01:09:54.920
We will remain layman because layman do not have a vocation to a congregation.

01:09:55.800 --> 01:10:00.680
I think one of the greatest strengths and greatest weaknesses of the Missouri Synod

01:10:00.760 --> 01:10:06.040
is our congregational polity means that every pastor can just be head down with his own sheep

01:10:06.040 --> 01:10:11.160
and pretending these other things are not happening. But that's not the way the world works,

01:10:11.160 --> 01:10:15.880
especially when you have the internet and you have publishing houses and you have catalogs

01:10:15.880 --> 01:10:21.960
where error in any one place will rapidly propagate everywhere. And for every pastor that wants

01:10:21.960 --> 01:10:27.160
to pretend this stuff is not happening, his congregation is full of people who are lapping it up

01:10:27.160 --> 01:10:33.400
167 hours a week. And that one hour a week that he's preaching faithfully isn't going to cut it

01:10:33.400 --> 01:10:39.320
when Satan is catacizing them for the other 167 hours. So as much as we can do anything,

01:10:39.320 --> 01:10:44.360
we are going to speak faithfully and may God help us to reach those who are willing to listen.

01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:55.080
I want to add a little bit of emphasis to the point that we both made about what is actually

01:10:55.080 --> 01:11:01.000
happening when a pastor or another teacher in the church uses materials written by a woman.

01:11:02.440 --> 01:11:09.560
And of course, that is the pastor permitting that woman to exercise authority through him.

01:11:11.240 --> 01:11:17.160
But it's worse than that. And the reason it's worse than that is because what is a pastor

01:11:17.160 --> 01:11:24.200
actually doing? What is a pastor supposed to be doing? A pastor speaks in the stead of Christ.

01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:31.400
When a pastor is up there speaking, he is speaking with the voice of God. At the very least,

01:11:31.400 --> 01:11:35.960
he is supposed to be speaking with the voice of God. So if a pastor is up there teaching

01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:44.200
and he is using materials produced by a girl, he is saying that a girl can speak with the voice

01:11:44.200 --> 01:11:53.320
of God. And that is simply not true. Men speak for God. God chose men to speak for him. God made

01:11:53.320 --> 01:12:00.440
men to speak for him. He did not make girls to do that. Yes, in public, of course. A woman can

01:12:00.440 --> 01:12:06.680
teach her children at home. Absolutely. She should do that. That is one of her duties. We recognize

01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:13.720
that because that is her sphere. And a mother can rightly exercise a sort of headship over her

01:12:13.720 --> 01:12:20.360
children just as children can exercise a sort of headship over their pets. There are different

01:12:20.360 --> 01:12:26.040
levels to the hierarchy. But when it comes to speaking in public, a woman cannot speak with

01:12:26.040 --> 01:12:30.920
the voice of God in public in that way. That is something that is restricted to men. And so the

01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:37.480
pastor is misrepresenting God ultimately is what he is doing. And that is a grievous sin. And

01:12:37.480 --> 01:12:43.480
that should absolutely terrify these men when they stand up and defend the indefensible.

01:12:44.440 --> 01:12:49.560
And I just have to say it is funny that they always go after the anonymity thing as if

01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:58.360
I've ever been anonymous. They just name and face everywhere. I am very subtle about it. Yes,

01:12:58.360 --> 01:13:03.480
they're just absolute hypocrites. And they know it. They're just insufferable hypocrites.

01:13:04.440 --> 01:13:10.600
To preantively address one of the criticisms at the last point you made, the argument has been

01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:17.400
made against the position that has been advanced against girls publishing books. Well, what about

01:13:17.400 --> 01:13:25.320
the grocery store? The distinction in teaching is public. It is the one to many relationship. Every

01:13:25.320 --> 01:13:31.480
Christian, male or female has a duty at all times. Young or old, you're five-year-old, whether it's

01:13:31.480 --> 01:13:37.080
a boy or a girl, has a duty to share his or her faith in Christ with anyone who will listen. But

01:13:37.080 --> 01:13:42.280
those are one-to-one relationships. They're interpersonal. If you're in the grocery store and

01:13:42.360 --> 01:13:48.280
your mother and you have an opportunity to share the gospel, you are commanded to do that by God.

01:13:48.280 --> 01:13:53.960
We are not speaking against that because although that is a public place for legal purposes,

01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:58.600
that is not public preaching or teaching. When a woman shares her faith in Christ,

01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:06.040
she's sharing what she knows, hopefully faithfully. But that conversation should always end with,

01:14:06.680 --> 01:14:13.960
let me introduce you to my pastor. That's the part that's missing from this. That is where we too,

01:14:15.240 --> 01:14:20.680
you and I between us have probably put, I know I personally put at least 100 souls in Lutheran

01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:26.360
churches. I'm not taking credit. I did that. The fact that I have represented myself as a Lutheran

01:14:26.360 --> 01:14:32.760
online has caused well over 100 men, women, and children to join Lutheran congregations. Not

01:14:32.840 --> 01:14:38.600
once have I ever said, join the church of woe. What I have said is, let me help you find a faithful

01:14:38.600 --> 01:14:46.680
pastor under whose care you and supervision you will be. And then go and be the best layman that you

01:14:46.680 --> 01:14:52.920
can be in that congregation, where you will hopefully someday serve as an elder, where you can

01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:58.040
volunteer, where you can set a good example, where you can learn to cataclyze your own family

01:14:58.200 --> 01:15:05.640
faithfully. So we are not usurpers of the church. We are attempting to enable the church in a way

01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:13.640
that is being battled by the very men who are sworn to God not to do so. And I pray that we can

01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:20.760
once again be on the same side, because we ultimately want everyone to hear the gospel. And as I

01:15:20.760 --> 01:15:26.760
mentioned earlier, a lot of the men that Cory and I have reached through the work that we have done

01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:32.120
have been men. Some of them were baptized as a result. There are several who have been

01:15:32.120 --> 01:15:37.720
baptized and cataclyzed just in the last year, because of me posting the very things that pastors

01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:44.200
say I'm going to go to hell for. And now these men are attending every Sunday. They are excited

01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:50.440
about watching the four-way and daily stream of services. They're reading their Bibles

01:15:50.680 --> 01:15:59.240
voraciously. They are working with their pastors. If that is the fruit of an evil tree, then I

01:15:59.240 --> 01:16:09.480
don't know what a good tree is supposed to look like. It's just ultimately we actually intend

01:16:09.480 --> 01:16:14.600
all of this for the good. Absolutely. There are those who believe that we don't.

01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:20.040
And if they're going to believe that, then they can go ahead and believe that. But nothing

01:16:20.040 --> 01:16:26.200
we have said, nothing we have posted, nothing we've written, we give any indication that we

01:16:26.200 --> 01:16:33.160
desire anything other than what we have stated. We want to get men back into the churches.

01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:39.960
And men are not going to come back into the churches, as long as they are just hearing a water

01:16:39.960 --> 01:16:46.360
down 20-year-old version of what the culture tells them every day echoed from the pulpits.

01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:53.160
Because if we have pastors like that, why on earth would I go to church? It makes so much more

01:16:53.160 --> 01:16:59.000
sense to wake up late and go have brunch instead of going to a church where I'm just going to hear

01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:07.000
the same nonsense the culture tells me every single day. So instead, we want pastors to be faithful

01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:14.920
and actually teach what Christianity is. Not this water down culturally sensitive

01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:24.120
version of Christianity that is not. As this podcast goes along, I hope that

01:17:25.560 --> 01:17:29.960
I hope that we'll reach the right people. And as we do this, we're going to name names,

01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:34.760
we're going to go after people by name for what they've said in public. And it is never done

01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:43.160
with malicious intent. It is not with the intent of destruction. It is done with the intent of

01:17:43.160 --> 01:17:50.440
calling to repentance because as long as these errors persist, men will be chased away.

01:17:50.440 --> 01:17:54.760
And one of the things that we have seen repeatedly is that there are a lot of pastors that think

01:17:54.760 --> 01:18:00.440
it's hilarious for the type of men who have come into their very own churches because of the things

01:18:00.440 --> 01:18:05.000
that we have said over the past few years. Pastors want those guys to go to hell. They don't want

01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:13.400
them in their pulp and they're in their pews. And you could not find a more different spirit dichotomy

01:18:13.400 --> 01:18:19.080
than what we see with the response to men who've hold the opinions that are contrary to the world.

01:18:19.080 --> 01:18:24.440
And in some cases, as they are learning about Christianity, are contrary to Christianity.

01:18:24.920 --> 01:18:30.200
They're ignorant. They've been raised outside the church by an evil world.

01:18:30.200 --> 01:18:35.160
We are trying to connect them with pastors who will be faithful to the teachings of God.

01:18:35.160 --> 01:18:40.760
And it's astonishing and depressing to me how difficult that is. But the reason that we are

01:18:40.760 --> 01:18:46.440
speaking again, it's not it's not to condemn just for the sake of condemnation. It is because I

01:18:46.440 --> 01:18:52.680
want there to still be Lutheran churches in 20 years for us and for all of these people who are

01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:59.800
trying to come to God to find and to find faithful preaching. And on the trajectory that we're

01:18:59.800 --> 01:19:05.080
on today, that's not going to be the case. There will not be a Christian church in 20 years.

01:19:05.080 --> 01:19:10.280
And I know the pastors think that's not the case because the case of hell not prevailing and all

01:19:10.280 --> 01:19:16.280
that stuff. Yes, that's true. Christianity will always be preserved. But God also promised there

01:19:16.280 --> 01:19:21.640
would be a remnant. And God promised there would be a great apostasy. And God promised that many of

01:19:21.640 --> 01:19:26.920
those who cry out, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons?

01:19:27.880 --> 01:19:33.880
God will say to them, you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you. We want that to happen to the

01:19:33.880 --> 01:19:40.120
pastors who hate us. We want them to repent and we want the people who want to come to our churches

01:19:40.120 --> 01:19:44.600
to find churches that are faithful to God so that we can all meet in heaven and not have any of

01:19:44.600 --> 01:19:50.040
these problems. And we can live the perfect lives that God created us to live in the first place.

01:19:52.600 --> 01:20:01.960
I think we can sum up, in large part, in addition to the stones crying out, we can sum up the

01:20:01.960 --> 01:20:10.520
purpose of this podcast with Ezekiel 33. So you son of man, I have made a watchman for the house

01:20:10.520 --> 01:20:16.600
of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. If I say to

01:20:16.600 --> 01:20:22.120
the wicked, a wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn

01:20:22.120 --> 01:20:28.520
from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:33.880
But if you warn the wicked to turn away from his way, and he does not turn from his way,

01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:38.040
that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.

01:20:39.800 --> 01:20:42.760
And that's what it comes down to. We don't have a choice.

01:20:43.720 --> 01:20:49.880
If Christ disciples, his followers have been silent, the stones would have cried out. The stones

01:20:49.880 --> 01:20:54.440
would not have had a choice. The stones would have to have cried out. It would have been their

01:20:54.440 --> 01:21:00.680
duty to cry out. Well, it's our duty to address these things, because as was stated previously,

01:21:00.680 --> 01:21:05.880
God has given us the ability to see them and the ability to address them. And so we do not have a

01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:13.560
choice. This isn't a project because it's necessarily enjoyable or fun. This is something that

01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:20.600
has to be done, because there is a duty to do it, and because the consequences of not doing it

01:21:20.600 --> 01:21:23.640
are unthinkable. Amen.