Transcript: Episode 0069

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<v SPEAKER_1>Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I am Corey J.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Mahler.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And I'm still, whoa.

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<v SPEAKER_2>On today's Stone Choir, we're going to be discussing the state of the church again.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We've done a few episodes in the last five months or so, where we talked kind of about the church in general.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We did a recent episode, we talked about apostasy as kind of the tail end of some of the heresies that slipped into the church.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This is gonna be another episode where we're talking about the answers that Christians have to a series of questions that have been asked by two different polling organizations.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The first set of data that we're going to be using is the Pew Longitudinal Survey from 2014.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the second is going to be a survey conducted most recently in 2022 by Ligonier Ministries.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Both the surveys were in the United States.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They talked to people both who were Christians and non-Christians.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We are principally going to be focusing on the data from inside the Church.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the reason that we're doing this episode today is that there have been numerous times in the past, where we will talk about things like teachings of demons.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We'll say that there are certain things that are very clearly heresies.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We will sometimes say very specifically that if you believe this sort of thing, you can't be saved.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And those are all scriptural approaches.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But as we said in the Judge Not episode, or the episode on judgment, we dealt with the fact that while we, as Christians living today, are not only called but equipped to act as jurists in the matter of, is a statement that a man makes true or false, that is not the same as judging the final disposition of that man's soul.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So, for example, in the episodes on Bonhoeffer and MLK, we stated with absolute certainty those men are in hell right now because there was nothing remotely Christian about their confessions.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Their confessions were explicitly anti-Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Most of the things that we deal with, we're dealing with inside the church.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Those men were completely outside the faith entirely demonstrably.

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<v SPEAKER_2>When we do episodes on things like baptism and communion and some of the other things like election, where there are disagreements among various Christian denominations, we obviously make the case from Scripture that we believe to be true about what those things are and that God says one thing, Scripture says one thing, and then the churches have disagreed in some cases only recently, in some cases for a very long time, about which of those statements is true, which of those is in accord with Scripture.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And obviously, we care a great deal about that, but at the same time, we don't say, if you get baptism wrong, according to us, in our book based on what Scripture says, we don't believe that means that someone who gets baptism wrong is going to go to hell.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do we believe that they are saying something that's contrary to Scripture?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do we believe that's a sin?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely.

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<v SPEAKER_2>God forgives the sins of Christians, even the ones where we're stupid and we get things wrong because we ignore, we've never been taught properly.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There are all sorts of reasons why someone who's been baptized, who's a Christian, who's confessing the Christian faith, is still going to misunderstand things, get things wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it's important to separate errors, things where just no one's ever been taught the specific thing that scripture says.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's a case in a lot of our churches.

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<v SPEAKER_2>As we just recently did the episodes on inheritance and on tithing and a few other things, not huge issues, but a number of guys have said, thank you for doing that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Jealousy is another one.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Guys who had never heard things put in those ways, in a number of cases, have started doing things differently in their own lives.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Like, oh, I never heard anyone explain that teaching that way.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That makes sense.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm going to treat my neighbor better now.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm going to do something that I wouldn't have done before because I didn't even think about it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And now that you explain that and you explain scripture, I want to do something good.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And no one thinks they're saving themselves.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's just, hey, it's in the Bible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Somebody reminded me that it's in the Bible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I believe what's in the Bible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I should go do what it says.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so no one's saving himself by doing stuff.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We are saved because God gives us the gift of faith.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so as we work through these specific questions today, this is a grab bag of all sorts of things.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And some of them are very clearly separating men from either being Christian or not Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Even within the survey data where we're specifically focusing on what self-identified Christians say, many of their answers are very, very, very clearly not Christian, not by a million miles.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I want to reaffirm that when we point to these things, the most that we can say, in the case of someone who's alive and we don't know what else is going on, we can say that such a person has no promise of salvation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That doesn't mean that they're damned.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We can't judge that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because there are things that you can get wrong and God will forgive it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And we don't have a list of, here's all the stuff you can get wrong and God is still going to say you're a Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>One of the things that we hope to get across is we're just discussing all these errors that exist inside numerous churches is that rather than us continuously pursuing the definition of the minimum viable Christianity, how about we focus on getting as much as we can from scripture?

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's our goal.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's the goal of Stone Choir.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If God says all these things about all these different subjects, we should believe them all.

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<v SPEAKER_2>As a Christian, even if you've never read the whole Bible, which frankly most people haven't, you can still as a Christian say, I believe everything in the Bible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because like any other book that has ever been compiled, if you confess that God is God and you confess that scripture is God's word, then it naturally flows that your confession is that I believe every word of scripture.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Even if you haven't read it, because you know as a Christian with faith, it's not your intellectual assent.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not that I've reviewed all of these things and I've marked it up and I didn't find any errors.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So then I can say, yeah, I agree with that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If you confess that God is God and that this is his word, you're naturally going to confess, I believe everything in there.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that is the framework that Christians have for approaching everything else.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And then we have some of these disputes and discussions and some things are really hard.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Some questions are tricky and they're tough.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And some things, you know, a lot of people just get wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This happens in every other discipline in the universe, in the entire history of humanity.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Guys get a lot of things wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Somebody gets it right and hopefully eventually the right answer catches on.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But it doesn't always look at things like nutrition.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There's constantly a battle in the nutrition space where people keep discovering new things and forgetting old things and coming up with all these new scams and fads.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it's almost impossible for most people to distinguish what should I be eating from what's killing me slowly or what's giving me cancer, some terrible thing.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If we can't even get that stuff right, it shouldn't be a surprise that we have trouble with Christian doctrine.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And we see this beginning in the pages of scripture itself.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In the New Testament, Paul and Jesus and Peter and Stephen and Timothy, they're all dealing with errors among believers where God says one thing in scripture, the teacher who's the faithful teacher is saying what's in scripture.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And then when you look at what the people are responding with, they're getting things wrong.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's always going to happen.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We're humans, we're fallible, we're sinful, we're going to make mistakes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so, today's episode, as we go through these individual line items, some of them are very clearly, you cannot be Christian if you believe this, and we'll highlight those.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And a lot of the others are, well, there's clearly a right answer here.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And I hope to God that the people who get the answer wrong, that they're forgiven for that, and that God still accepts that they have a Christian faith, that He's given them again, because it's not us trying to get a high score.

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<v SPEAKER_2>A quote that I've used a number of times from a Lutheran pastor, sound doctrine is not about getting a high score or about winning arguments on the internet or anywhere else.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's about having more of the gifts that God has given us.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so when we have concerns about sound doctrine, it's not flexing of one denomination over another.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's not remotely the point.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The point is if God has revealed these things, we should want as much of that as possible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We shouldn't be concerned with, can I get these least possible amount of Christianity out of the Bible and still get to heaven and the worst possible station in heaven?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because you're rewarded for what good you do and how faithful you are.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You don't get there that way, but scripture is clear that there are rewards in heaven.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so, you know, if you want to be jealous of greater glory, I don't even sure if that's a good way to look at it, but if you do the right things, God will reward it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Now, is your purpose of doing the right things and believing the right things to get more rewards?

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<v SPEAKER_2>I don't think it should be.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I think it should be focused on God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>He's God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>He's the creator of the universe.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Let's just listen and believe him.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And I think one of the things that's missing when we're talking about discussions of doctrine and what's in scripture is that we're very casual when we're sitting here reading the Bible and reading through verses and passages with the idea of saying, well, I don't really believe that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Consider the fact that you're effectively doing that directly to Jesus' face.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because when he was physically present on earth, walking in a human body, his body, an eternal body now, he was talking face to face to men and he was telling him things.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the response that many of us have today is effectively the response of the rich young man.

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<v SPEAKER_2>He came up and he was keeping the entire law, so he thought, and Jesus played along with that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It was obviously false, because as he said in the Sermon on the Mount, no one can keep the law perfectly, because if whatever is in your heart is what makes you guilty of the sin, whether or not you commit the sin, you've committed the sin in your heart.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So there's no such thing as man keeping the law perfectly, but Jesus didn't argue with that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Jesus didn't argue with the rich man and say, well, actually, that's not possible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>He said, in effect, okay, sell your belongings and come with me, because he knew that in that man's heart, his wealth was his idol.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And then whatever else he was getting right, he was unwilling to listen to God, to listen to Jesus.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so that man wandered off, you know, probably in disgust or disillusionment or disappointment.

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<v SPEAKER_2>He wandered off.

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<v SPEAKER_2>He turned about face from Jesus and he walked away.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's effectively what we are doing when we read scripture and say, well, I don't believe this.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's really what you're doing to God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>God is speaking to you in the words of scripture and you're turning around saying, yeah, not into that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This is where our concern is.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And we're talking about whether or not someone has a promise of salvation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because the man who cries out, Lord, Lord, you know how that passage ends.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Jesus said to some of them, I never knew you.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Even though they were casting out demons or performing miracles in his name, even though they had the right words, their confession was false because they did not believe in the true God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And rather than again, worrying about what is the least amount of what God says that I can believe and still be saved, we should be greedy.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We should be zealous for the word of God and say, I want as much of this as I can stuff in my face.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Lord, just give it all to me.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I want more.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That should be our approach.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And with that approach, even if you get things wrong, you're still going to be in so much better shape.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And again, like we don't know among these various church bodies who's going to heaven, who's going to hell.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In some cases, it's clear.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The people who flat out deny that Jesus is God, definitionally those people are not Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But then you look at some of the other answers given to very similar questions and they contradict themselves.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that's the reason that God alone can judge a man's heart and judge those situations.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We can't.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so we're not.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We're not here to say that X, Y, and Z denominations are all going to hell because it's not true.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There's always going to be Christians wherever the word of God is preached among them.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We've said before, one of the miraculous things about the constitution of Stone Choir's audience is that many of you are from very different backgrounds than Lutheranism.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And yet you're agreeing with a lot of the same things that we're saying that are in the Bible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And while generally we take a Lutheran approach overtly to these things, it's all rooted in scripture.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not rooted in some particular version of Christianity.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's just, what does God say?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Let's believe it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's a two-step process.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Did God say it?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, I believe it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Anyone who agrees with that is usually going to land on the same page.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so as we work through these things, just keep in mind that we're not damning anyone, but we are going to dam some of the answers and they'll be pretty clear to you just how bad they are.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that's the other purpose of this episode, is that when people say that they're Christians, when they self-identify, it's almost meaningless.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I hate to say that, but we've said before it's true.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This data is going to demonstrate why we hold that contention.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We're not being mean.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We're not trying to name call people.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's literally these things are contrary to the Christian faith, and they're on the lips of people who say they're Christians.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Only God can sort that out.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But we as believers and we as neighbors of these people who think they're believers should care very deeply about that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because if someone says, I'm a Christian, the best thing I think we can do in a lot of cases is to agree and amplify.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Say, okay, you're a Christian, great.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Let's talk about what the Bible says.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And if they don't want to do that, you know what kind of Christian they are.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They're not a Christian at all.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If they have no appetite for God's word, okay, so it goes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But even where someone is in error, where they get some of these things wrong, in a lot of cases, if they say, I believe God, I believe in Jesus, I believe in the Bible, they've never read it, they've never heard it explained correctly.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And when that happens to them face to face with someone talking to them, in a lot of cases, they'll be like, okay, that's what I believe.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That is the essence of evangelism.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it needs to happen inside our churches too.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It needs to happen among our churches.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because some church bodies are in far worse shape than others.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And as we wrap up this episode, that's really going to be where we pivot to.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That when we're talking about, oh, I want to spread the word of God and I want as many people as possible to believe in God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Amen.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Where do we find them?

00:15:25.192 --> 00:15:27.412
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't find them 6,000 miles away.

00:15:27.652 --> 00:15:29.432
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't even find them a thousand miles away.

00:15:29.632 --> 00:15:36.912
<v SPEAKER_2>You're going to find them in your own town and some of the churches where people are showing up and they're not believing what's in the word of God.

00:15:37.472 --> 00:15:39.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Those people, some of them are lost.

00:15:39.512 --> 00:15:41.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Some of them say they're Christians and they're damned.

00:15:41.892 --> 00:15:48.152
<v SPEAKER_2>And we all know if you believe the Bible, that's perfectly in accord with what God says happens.

00:15:48.692 --> 00:15:52.592
<v SPEAKER_2>It's true that there are some people who say they are sons of God who are not.

00:15:53.172 --> 00:15:54.632
<v SPEAKER_2>The same thing happened with the Jews.

00:15:55.012 --> 00:15:56.772
<v SPEAKER_2>They said, you know, we're sons of Abraham.

00:15:56.792 --> 00:15:58.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And God said, that's not what that even means.

00:15:58.772 --> 00:16:08.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Like it was the faith of Abraham that was credited to him as righteousness, not his lineage, not even God's promise, but the promise was a promise of faith.

00:16:08.852 --> 00:16:09.992
<v SPEAKER_2>And he kept that faith.

00:16:10.452 --> 00:16:13.992
<v SPEAKER_2>And that is his righteousness, not his correct answers.

00:16:15.812 --> 00:16:19.992
<v SPEAKER_2>So we're principally going to focus on two main groups and then a third group.

00:16:20.332 --> 00:16:25.592
<v SPEAKER_2>The first will be evangelicals, mainline denominations, and then the Roman Catholic Church.

00:16:27.352 --> 00:16:31.452
<v SPEAKER_2>I think we all know pretty much what evangelical means in the American context.

00:16:31.472 --> 00:16:35.872
<v SPEAKER_2>If you don't know, basically it just means Bible believing, more conservative.

00:16:36.292 --> 00:16:40.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And then mainline is pretty much the churches that have rainbow flags.

00:16:40.852 --> 00:16:48.432
<v SPEAKER_2>So in most cases, most of the mainline denominations, A, are dumpster fires, and in a lot of cases are overtly not Christian.

00:16:48.752 --> 00:16:53.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Nevertheless, there are some Christians among them because people just stay with their denomination for inertia.

00:16:53.992 --> 00:16:55.072
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a problem.

00:16:55.312 --> 00:16:58.532
<v SPEAKER_2>It's one we need to work through, but it happens.

00:16:59.112 --> 00:17:14.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And so the fact that a place like Elka for Lutherans or Pakuza for Presbyterians is a complete heretical dumpster fire doesn't mean that there's zero Christians among them, but it means that almost all their answers are absolutely horrific.

00:17:14.932 --> 00:17:20.172
<v SPEAKER_2>And so the contrast between those mainline denominations and the evangelicals will be the principal one.

00:17:20.532 --> 00:17:44.852
<v SPEAKER_2>And then in some of these answers, we're also going to refer to the Roman Catholic answers simply to demonstrate, not to pick on Roman Catholics in particular, but to illustrate when you look outside of the very rad, trad, very conservative cultural, at least, diocese and parishes in Roman Catholicism, what you find is that Rome in this country is a mainline denomination.

00:17:45.232 --> 00:17:57.532
<v SPEAKER_2>In almost every case where Rome's answers differ from the mainline, from Alca and Pacusa and the Methodists and the other rainbow flag churches, where Rome doesn't agree with them, they're even worse.

00:17:57.792 --> 00:17:58.472
<v SPEAKER_2>They're not better.

00:17:58.592 --> 00:18:03.832
<v SPEAKER_2>They're not nearly as good in terms of what's provably the correct answer as evangelicals.

00:18:03.972 --> 00:18:12.892
<v SPEAKER_2>So we'll highlight that in some places, but for the most part, when you hear mainline, really we'll probably just highlight when Rome is differing from them, because it's going to be the same.

00:18:13.472 --> 00:18:21.692
<v SPEAKER_2>And again, we're not just picking on those guys, it's just that that's one of the major separate groups that's outside of these other two big bodies of Protestantism.

00:18:23.192 --> 00:18:30.512
<v SPEAKER_2>These answers are going to tell you what's going on in those churches, regardless of what they have on their websites, regardless of what you read on Twitter or anywhere else.

00:18:31.292 --> 00:18:35.492
<v SPEAKER_2>This is the fruit downstream from the preaching in all of these places.

00:18:37.412 --> 00:18:45.712
<v SPEAKER_1>To further couch this episode, I want to point out three Latin words that I suspect you probably already know by now.

00:18:46.132 --> 00:18:50.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And those are notitia, ascensus and fiducia, notice, assent and trust.

00:18:50.972 --> 00:18:55.032
<v SPEAKER_1>We are essentially speaking about the first two in this episode.

00:18:56.112 --> 00:19:05.292
<v SPEAKER_1>And the reason I want to emphasize that is because everyone always wants to focus on a couple of core issues in the Christian faith.

00:19:06.072 --> 00:19:07.612
<v SPEAKER_1>Do you believe in the crucifixion?

00:19:07.752 --> 00:19:10.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Do you believe in justification?

00:19:12.112 --> 00:19:14.972
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not the fullness of the Christian faith.

00:19:15.252 --> 00:19:19.772
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot narrow down the Christian faith to just one or two things.

00:19:20.792 --> 00:19:21.572
<v SPEAKER_1>Look at the creeds.

00:19:21.592 --> 00:19:24.372
<v SPEAKER_1>The creeds state far more than one or two things.

00:19:24.812 --> 00:19:37.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And so what we are dealing with primarily in this episode would be those first two issues, which is the notice essentially means what is the content of the Christian faith?

00:19:37.332 --> 00:19:38.152
<v SPEAKER_1>What are the tenets?

00:19:38.172 --> 00:19:41.992
<v SPEAKER_1>What are the beliefs that constitute the actual Christian faith?

00:19:42.032 --> 00:19:46.472
<v SPEAKER_1>And then there is the ascent to that, the conviction that those things are true.

00:19:48.052 --> 00:20:03.992
<v SPEAKER_1>And so in focusing on those, we can compare across denominations to some degree, but more generally, as Woe was saying, we can focus on the state of the churches, primarily in the US, although this is also true for many other parts of the world.

00:20:04.012 --> 00:20:05.772
<v SPEAKER_1>It's even worse in most of the rest of the world.

00:20:06.932 --> 00:20:12.692
<v SPEAKER_1>But this shows the reality on the ground of what people who claim to be Christian believe.

00:20:13.112 --> 00:20:28.492
<v SPEAKER_1>And in some cases, those who claim to be the more conservative, supposedly traditional Bible-believing Christians, and you will see that does not always correlate with right belief, even on issues that are abundantly clear in Scripture.

00:20:29.272 --> 00:20:48.532
<v SPEAKER_1>And so as Woe was saying, and as we'll emphasize later in the episode, looking at these data, looking at this information, should help to guide us in determining what we need to do as Christians, where we should be expending our efforts, to whom we should be reaching out and sharing the Christian faith.

00:20:48.552 --> 00:20:54.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Because in some cases, the man who needs evangelized may be the one who is claiming to be Christian.

00:20:55.872 --> 00:21:00.372
<v SPEAKER_1>But if you scratch a little deeper than the surface, you'll realize he's not a Christian at all.

00:21:01.172 --> 00:21:02.692
<v SPEAKER_1>Because he doesn't have any of these.

00:21:03.292 --> 00:21:06.592
<v SPEAKER_1>He doesn't even know what the content of the Christian faith is.

00:21:07.112 --> 00:21:11.232
<v SPEAKER_1>He just says that he's Christian and maybe even attends a church.

00:21:11.372 --> 00:21:13.892
<v SPEAKER_1>We can debate whether or not it's an actual church.

00:21:14.752 --> 00:21:25.252
<v SPEAKER_1>But just because someone says, I am a Christian, and even if he also attends church, that does not necessarily mean that he is actually a Christian.

00:21:26.852 --> 00:21:37.572
<v SPEAKER_1>The distinction there, and this is one of those issues that is often raised by atheists and others, particularly on social media, they try to say it's the no true Scotsman fallacy.

00:21:38.572 --> 00:21:44.592
<v SPEAKER_1>The problem with that is, if you are Scottish, you're Scottish biologically, you're Scottish by blood.

00:21:44.772 --> 00:21:47.112
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not a matter of believing certain things.

00:21:47.732 --> 00:21:49.632
<v SPEAKER_1>You are or you are not.

00:21:50.312 --> 00:21:52.672
<v SPEAKER_1>The same is true if you pick a species.

00:21:52.692 --> 00:21:54.792
<v SPEAKER_1>You either are a dog or you are not a dog.

00:21:55.592 --> 00:21:56.892
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not a matter of belief.

00:21:56.972 --> 00:21:58.432
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a matter of essence.

00:21:58.452 --> 00:21:59.952
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a matter of being that thing.

00:22:01.192 --> 00:22:10.832
<v SPEAKER_1>When it comes to something like Christianity, it is a matter of believing the tenets of Christianity, the tenets of the ideology.

00:22:11.612 --> 00:22:20.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And so, for instance, you can't say that you are a libertarian if you believe none of the things, although in the case of libertarians, none of them agree.

00:22:20.512 --> 00:22:27.692
<v SPEAKER_1>But you can't say that you're a libertarian if you disagree with absolutely every tenet of what that ideology advances.

00:22:29.372 --> 00:22:30.972
<v SPEAKER_1>The same is true for Christianity.

00:22:31.072 --> 00:22:33.012
<v SPEAKER_1>There is a content to the faith.

00:22:33.492 --> 00:22:37.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And in order to be a Christian, there is some minimum somewhere.

00:22:38.312 --> 00:22:47.572
<v SPEAKER_1>We're not going to find that minimum today, and we would actually say you shouldn't even attempt to find that minimum, because the goal should never be to be minimally Christian.

00:22:48.132 --> 00:22:52.412
<v SPEAKER_1>The goal is not to just barely squeak over the finish line, as it were.

00:22:53.612 --> 00:22:56.512
<v SPEAKER_1>I've used the example before, the illustration of a cliff.

00:22:57.532 --> 00:23:08.672
<v SPEAKER_1>The goal is not to come as close to the cliff as possible, which would be to believe as few things as possible about the Christian faith, without believing one too few and falling over.

00:23:09.552 --> 00:23:14.212
<v SPEAKER_1>The goal is to avoid the cliff, to stay away from the cliff, to be a faithful Christian.

00:23:14.812 --> 00:23:17.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And so all of these issues we are going to discuss today matter.

00:23:18.532 --> 00:23:21.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Are they all absolutely essential to salvation?

00:23:21.652 --> 00:23:22.612
<v SPEAKER_1>The answer is no.

00:23:24.712 --> 00:23:35.412
<v SPEAKER_1>But we cannot give you a number where, oh, you have to believe X out of Y in order to be saved, or you can't believe all of these and none of these.

00:23:35.672 --> 00:23:37.292
<v SPEAKER_1>There are ones where that's very easy.

00:23:37.932 --> 00:23:45.432
<v SPEAKER_1>There are some questions where it is a simple matter of, if you believe this, you're damned, or if you don't believe this, you're damned.

00:23:46.232 --> 00:23:48.132
<v SPEAKER_1>But for many of these, that is not the case.

00:23:50.692 --> 00:23:55.992
<v SPEAKER_1>What we are saying with regard to that is do not have that mindset.

00:23:56.792 --> 00:24:03.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Do not look for where the little line is where, well, if I get as close as possible, that's exactly wrong.

00:24:04.392 --> 00:24:06.732
<v SPEAKER_1>And quite frankly, it's sinful to be looking for that line.

00:24:07.532 --> 00:24:08.712
<v SPEAKER_1>You want to avoid that.

00:24:08.932 --> 00:24:11.072
<v SPEAKER_1>You want to have the fullness of the Christian faith.

00:24:11.132 --> 00:24:13.512
<v SPEAKER_1>So you want to get all of these correct.

00:24:13.852 --> 00:24:22.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Not because it is absolutely essential, but because one, it is your duty as a Christian, and two, there are blessings from God.

00:24:23.892 --> 00:24:26.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And yes, there are blessings for getting things correct as well.

00:24:27.152 --> 00:24:29.992
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not just doing the right things in life.

00:24:31.212 --> 00:24:35.012
<v SPEAKER_1>God does reward those who believe correctly about him.

00:24:35.752 --> 00:24:38.252
<v SPEAKER_1>That is, again, part of your duty as a Christian.

00:24:39.012 --> 00:24:42.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And so these are important questions, some more important than others.

00:24:43.752 --> 00:24:56.892
<v SPEAKER_1>But that tendency to want to find the line, that line-drawing obsession that can be particularly pronounced sometimes in our circles on the political right, it should not have a place here.

00:24:57.772 --> 00:24:59.712
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not what we are discussing.

00:24:59.732 --> 00:25:01.112
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not the point of the episode.

00:25:01.452 --> 00:25:02.992
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not the point of the Christian life.

00:25:04.512 --> 00:25:09.152
<v SPEAKER_1>What God has said is true, and we should believe it.

00:25:10.072 --> 00:25:12.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And so there are correct answers to all of these questions.

00:25:13.712 --> 00:25:18.152
<v SPEAKER_1>We should want to get all of them right, and we should want to help our neighbor get all of them right.

00:25:18.812 --> 00:25:37.772
<v SPEAKER_1>We should want to go out and evangelize those in our communities who get these questions wrong, who have maybe even not been taught the correct answers, because as we will see with some of these questions, the respondents probably didn't even understand what was being asked in a full sense of the term.

00:25:39.492 --> 00:25:40.292
<v SPEAKER_1>That's a problem.

00:25:41.432 --> 00:25:52.752
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not just a problem with the state of our churches, it's a problem with the state of our teachers in our churches and outside our churches, and the fact that many Christians are clearly not reading Scripture.

00:25:54.032 --> 00:25:58.192
<v SPEAKER_1>Because some of these, if you read Scripture, you are not going to get them wrong.

00:26:00.432 --> 00:26:02.652
<v SPEAKER_2>So this is an episode about a bunch of data.

00:26:02.852 --> 00:26:04.492
<v SPEAKER_2>As I mentioned, these are from two studies.

00:26:04.852 --> 00:26:06.072
<v SPEAKER_2>The links will be in the show notes.

00:26:06.092 --> 00:26:11.072
<v SPEAKER_2>I highly encourage anyone who's interested to go click through and dig around yourself.

00:26:11.092 --> 00:26:13.132
<v SPEAKER_2>We're just scratching the surface on the data.

00:26:13.152 --> 00:26:21.612
<v SPEAKER_2>We've cherry picked some questions that go directly to our thesis, which is that most of the people who say they're Christians are not Christians in the United States.

00:26:22.632 --> 00:26:23.452
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's a big deal.

00:26:23.592 --> 00:26:25.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And that will matter in future episodes.

00:26:25.592 --> 00:26:29.712
<v SPEAKER_2>But as we made the case in the Apostle episode, obviously it can happen.

00:26:30.012 --> 00:26:31.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Here's where we're seeing it on the ground.

00:26:32.592 --> 00:26:38.592
<v SPEAKER_2>So we're going to try as much as possible not to give raw numbers because it's a podcast.

00:26:38.592 --> 00:26:41.712
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't see charts and graphs and trying to keep a bunch of numbers in your head is crazy.

00:26:41.732 --> 00:26:44.932
<v SPEAKER_2>So visualization, it's entirely on the web.

00:26:45.012 --> 00:26:46.952
<v SPEAKER_2>It's self-serve, go have a ball.

00:26:47.572 --> 00:26:48.592
<v SPEAKER_2>It's really interesting data.

00:26:48.612 --> 00:26:57.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Like I said, there's a lot more there than we have any interest in covering here that will raise a whole bunch of different questions that are not on the table today.

00:26:57.812 --> 00:27:01.892
<v SPEAKER_2>You will be shocked and horrified at how bad some of these things are.

00:27:03.492 --> 00:27:10.452
<v SPEAKER_2>The first question that we're going to tackle is, this first set is all going to be from the Pew data from 2014.

00:27:10.932 --> 00:27:12.472
<v SPEAKER_2>First question is belief in God.

00:27:13.232 --> 00:27:18.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And the answers are absolutely believe fairly certain God exists, not certain God exists.

00:27:19.972 --> 00:27:24.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Evangelicals, about 90% absolutely certain, about 10% fairly certain.

00:27:24.912 --> 00:27:29.052
<v SPEAKER_2>So virtually no evangelicals deny that God is real.

00:27:29.372 --> 00:27:29.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Good news.

00:27:30.552 --> 00:27:38.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Mainline drops to 2 thirds are absolutely certain, and a quarter are fairly certain, and about 4 or 5% not certain at all.

00:27:39.412 --> 00:27:49.112
<v SPEAKER_2>So already there's a huge gap between 90% and 2 thirds, just between the evangelicals and those who are the mainline, the rainbow Christians.

00:27:49.452 --> 00:27:52.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Probably use that term here just for the sake of clarity.

00:27:53.112 --> 00:27:56.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And then Rome, 64% also 2 thirds.

00:27:56.552 --> 00:28:01.892
<v SPEAKER_2>So the absolutely is only 2 thirds of Roman Catholics, and mainlines believe that God exists.

00:28:04.352 --> 00:28:06.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And then another quarter of them are fairly certain.

00:28:07.252 --> 00:28:08.952
<v SPEAKER_2>That by itself is catastrophic.

00:28:09.332 --> 00:28:10.632
<v SPEAKER_2>That's right off the top.

00:28:10.992 --> 00:28:20.832
<v SPEAKER_2>If you can't say you're absolutely certain that God exists, as I said, I don't see how you can possibly have any promise of salvation if you doubt that God exists.

00:28:21.492 --> 00:28:31.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Because that doubt, everything else that could possibly, every other question that could possibly arise in the Christian context is necessarily downstream from you having a creator.

00:28:32.372 --> 00:28:35.152
<v SPEAKER_2>A man who doubts that can't get anything else right.

00:28:35.832 --> 00:28:43.172
<v SPEAKER_2>So, this is the first of every case where the evangelicals are going to be as close to Christianity as possible.

00:28:43.632 --> 00:28:50.392
<v SPEAKER_2>The main lines are going to be some flavor of dumpster fire, and then Rome is going to be either in the same dumpster or in an adjacent one.

00:28:51.312 --> 00:28:58.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And you even have 2% with each of the mainline Protestants and the Roman Catholics who say they do not believe in God.

00:28:59.772 --> 00:29:07.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Not just that they aren't certain, not just that they don't have a fairly certain belief, they literally answered they do not believe in God.

00:29:08.892 --> 00:29:18.672
<v SPEAKER_1>1 in 50 mainline Protestants and 1 in 50 Roman Catholics in the United States does not even believe in God.

00:29:20.492 --> 00:29:21.952
<v SPEAKER_1>That's absolutely insane.

00:29:23.092 --> 00:29:39.072
<v SPEAKER_1>The idea that you would even claim to be a Christian and then deny a belief in God, but that's the state of affairs today with regard to the mainline churches and the Roman Catholic Church in the United States.

00:29:39.932 --> 00:29:46.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's not even including the percentages that say they don't know, which is as bad as saying you don't believe in God.

00:29:46.772 --> 00:29:48.312
<v SPEAKER_1>If you say, I don't know if there's a God.

00:29:51.432 --> 00:29:54.052
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything else, as well said, is downstream from that.

00:29:54.952 --> 00:30:01.252
<v SPEAKER_1>If you don't believe in God, how does any of the rest of this make any coherent sense whatsoever?

00:30:02.712 --> 00:30:06.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Why would you believe anything in the Bible if there's no God?

00:30:07.792 --> 00:30:17.012
<v SPEAKER_1>If there's no God, if the Bible is not written by God, then you may as well believe the menu from your local Thai restaurant or a random science fiction book.

00:30:17.012 --> 00:30:19.792
<v SPEAKER_1>It's just as compelling if there's no God.

00:30:21.092 --> 00:30:25.212
<v SPEAKER_1>The reason we believe in the Word of God is because it's the Word of God.

00:30:25.912 --> 00:30:29.372
<v SPEAKER_1>So fundamentally, you have to start with a belief in God.

00:30:30.252 --> 00:30:38.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And notably for the evangelicals, it is 0% for anything below not too certain, which isn't great.

00:30:38.452 --> 00:30:39.612
<v SPEAKER_1>That's 1% there.

00:30:40.052 --> 00:30:45.192
<v SPEAKER_1>But there are no respondents who say they do not believe in God or they don't know.

00:30:46.512 --> 00:30:52.532
<v SPEAKER_2>In the absence of that data is important because a church should be unwelcoming to someone who denies God.

00:30:52.992 --> 00:31:01.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Not in the sense of being actively hostile, but they should feel like they don't belong there in the sense that I don't believe anything that's here.

00:31:01.972 --> 00:31:02.892
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't believe in God.

00:31:03.492 --> 00:31:05.912
<v SPEAKER_2>How can someone who doesn't believe in God go to a church?

00:31:06.192 --> 00:31:13.532
<v SPEAKER_2>They can only go to a church where it's perfectly alright not to believe in God and where they're hearing things that are consistent with that.

00:31:14.552 --> 00:31:18.912
<v SPEAKER_2>The next few questions are kind of about the Christian life, not so much about belief.

00:31:19.872 --> 00:31:24.972
<v SPEAKER_2>But they're useful because they're an indication of even the possibility of spiritual health.

00:31:25.532 --> 00:31:26.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And so the first one is attendance.

00:31:27.112 --> 00:31:28.832
<v SPEAKER_2>How often do you attend church?

00:31:29.292 --> 00:31:31.972
<v SPEAKER_2>The evangelicals once a week is about 60%.

00:31:32.592 --> 00:31:36.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Once or twice a month or a few times a year is about 30%.

00:31:36.272 --> 00:31:44.792
<v SPEAKER_2>It's like a two to one ratio of all the time, sporadically or somewhat often, only about one in ten said seldom or never.

00:31:45.212 --> 00:31:50.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Contrast that with mainline, where instead of 60%, it was one third attend once a week.

00:31:50.832 --> 00:31:52.652
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a huge difference statistically.

00:31:52.672 --> 00:31:58.932
<v SPEAKER_2>That's basically virtually a two to one ratio of going once a week evangelicals versus mainline.

00:31:59.592 --> 00:32:07.412
<v SPEAKER_2>And then the once or twice a month goes up from 30% for the evangelicals to over 40% from the mainlines.

00:32:07.972 --> 00:32:12.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And then a quarter of the mainlines seldom or never attend church at all.

00:32:13.292 --> 00:32:14.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And Rome is right there with them.

00:32:14.872 --> 00:32:16.492
<v SPEAKER_2>They're 40, 40, 20.

00:32:16.872 --> 00:32:19.432
<v SPEAKER_2>20% of Roman Catholics never attend church.

00:32:20.012 --> 00:32:26.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And when you understand some of the specifics of their doctrine, that makes sense because they're Roman Catholic.

00:32:26.652 --> 00:32:33.852
<v SPEAKER_2>If you are already in the club actually going to Mass, some of them come to the conclusion that they don't need to do that.

00:32:34.272 --> 00:32:37.932
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's a significant difference from the evangelicals.

00:32:38.812 --> 00:32:41.912
<v SPEAKER_2>No, these are again, these are all churches that are teaching all these various things.

00:32:41.932 --> 00:32:51.992
<v SPEAKER_2>And these are very coarse groups because I said in the intro, evangelical, like Pew correctly separates LCMS and Wells from ALCA.

00:32:52.392 --> 00:32:59.612
<v SPEAKER_2>They correctly separate OPC and PCA from PICUZA, PCUSA.

00:33:00.112 --> 00:33:06.672
<v SPEAKER_2>So when the main lines, they put the libs in the main line bucket, and they put the conservatives in the evangelical bucket.

00:33:07.352 --> 00:33:12.412
<v SPEAKER_2>And even with the evangelicals, not even two-thirds actually attend church every week.

00:33:12.732 --> 00:33:13.812
<v SPEAKER_2>I think that's kind of wild.

00:33:14.812 --> 00:33:18.112
<v SPEAKER_2>The next one has to do with group prayer and group study.

00:33:18.652 --> 00:33:27.252
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's basically either on Sunday or during the week, apart from just attending the church service, how often do you get together with other Christians?

00:33:27.592 --> 00:33:31.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, most cases is probably going to be something like Bible class on Sunday morning.

00:33:31.772 --> 00:33:32.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Not necessarily.

00:33:32.452 --> 00:33:33.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe it's something in the midweek.

00:33:34.832 --> 00:33:37.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Evangelicals, nearly half, do it once a week.

00:33:38.772 --> 00:33:43.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Over 20% do it once or twice a month, and about a third never do it.

00:33:43.292 --> 00:33:47.272
<v SPEAKER_2>That kind of jives with my observation over time.

00:33:47.292 --> 00:33:49.852
<v SPEAKER_2>There are some people who just will never come to any of those things.

00:33:50.132 --> 00:33:57.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Some people show up occasionally, and usually about half of people at the church show up, you know, pretty regularly, almost every Sunday or every Sunday.

00:33:58.352 --> 00:34:04.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Main lines goes from almost half to less than 20% do it once a week.

00:34:05.012 --> 00:34:08.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Another one-fifth, another 20% once or twice a month.

00:34:09.112 --> 00:34:15.072
<v SPEAKER_2>60% of main lines never do any other study or group prayer or anything like that with others.

00:34:15.592 --> 00:34:17.672
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a huge difference in the Christian life.

00:34:18.312 --> 00:34:34.752
<v SPEAKER_2>The idea of gathering together with other believers, apart from the church service proper, which is vital, but getting together with other Christians where you're being taught, where you're discussing, where you're praying, any sort of engagement with your faith community, that's a thing.

00:34:35.092 --> 00:34:38.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Your brothers in Christ should be there with you and for you.

00:34:38.972 --> 00:34:43.172
<v SPEAKER_2>Talking these things through is the mutual consolation of the brethren.

00:34:43.392 --> 00:34:45.192
<v SPEAKER_2>It's how we reinforce good teaching.

00:34:45.452 --> 00:34:52.292
<v SPEAKER_2>It's the opportunity for good and faithful teachers to reinforce many of the things that will simply never come up in a Sunday morning sermon.

00:34:53.012 --> 00:34:57.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Because the sermon is not nearly as long as a class is going to be, in most cases.

00:34:57.352 --> 00:34:59.812
<v SPEAKER_2>That's something that some dominations still stick to.

00:35:00.152 --> 00:35:04.072
<v SPEAKER_2>They used to be that Lutheran sermons were an hour, two hours in some cases.

00:35:04.592 --> 00:35:08.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, if the pastor goes beyond 15 minutes, people start tapping their watches.

00:35:09.172 --> 00:35:15.312
<v SPEAKER_2>It's very conspicuous for some people coming into Lutheran churches if they've experienced longer sermons elsewhere.

00:35:16.272 --> 00:35:18.012
<v SPEAKER_2>I think we're on the wrong end of that stick.

00:35:18.332 --> 00:35:22.912
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't think an hour-long sermon necessarily makes sense, but you know what, that's an adiaphora.

00:35:23.132 --> 00:35:25.452
<v SPEAKER_2>There's not a prescribed amount of time.

00:35:25.812 --> 00:35:32.672
<v SPEAKER_2>However, the investment that the individual Christian has, and I want more, is absolutely a fruit of their spirit.

00:35:33.052 --> 00:35:35.252
<v SPEAKER_2>It's going to be a fruit of the teaching in a congregation.

00:35:36.212 --> 00:35:44.632
<v SPEAKER_1>And even for the evangelicals, that one-third who never or seldom participate in these things, that's abysmal.

00:35:44.752 --> 00:35:48.932
<v SPEAKER_1>But for the Roman Catholics, it's two-thirds.

00:35:50.912 --> 00:36:02.492
<v SPEAKER_1>And part of that, of course, is going to be some of the doctrinal and structural differences, there are fewer classes in the Roman Catholic churches than certainly some of the evangelical churches.

00:36:04.332 --> 00:36:22.352
<v SPEAKER_1>But two-thirds of Christians, Roman Catholics in this case, never engaging in prayer or scripture study or religious education, which are the three categories under this question, that really does bring into question the seriousness of that faith.

00:36:23.252 --> 00:36:29.372
<v SPEAKER_1>Because if you are a Christian, there are certain things that are going to flow from that living faith.

00:36:30.192 --> 00:36:41.312
<v SPEAKER_1>You are going to want to read the Word of God, you are going to want to pray, not just because you're commanded to pray, but because you're given the opportunity to pray.

00:36:41.732 --> 00:36:45.632
<v SPEAKER_1>God tells you that He hears your prayers and He will answer your prayers.

00:36:46.492 --> 00:36:49.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And if you believe that, you're going to pray.

00:36:49.992 --> 00:36:54.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And we see similar things with the frequency of prayer.

00:36:55.092 --> 00:37:06.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, the frequency of prayer, thankfully, is higher than this participation in the Scripture study with 60% of Catholics actually praying, at least daily.

00:37:06.572 --> 00:37:19.432
<v SPEAKER_1>I imagine part of that is the ritual of the rosary and the prayers like that, which I'm not saying that it's bad to have a ritual when it comes to prayer, because obviously that's going to increase the frequency with which one prays.

00:37:19.772 --> 00:37:24.852
<v SPEAKER_1>That's an important part of establishing that habit, which prayer should indeed be a habit.

00:37:25.312 --> 00:37:29.812
<v SPEAKER_1>I would disagree with some of the content, of course, but that is a tangential topic.

00:37:30.332 --> 00:37:32.152
<v SPEAKER_1>But for evangelicals, it's 80%.

00:37:32.812 --> 00:37:33.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Pray, at least daily.

00:37:34.712 --> 00:37:35.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It should be 100%.

00:37:36.892 --> 00:37:43.632
<v SPEAKER_1>If you call yourself an evangelical Christian, if you say you're a Bible-believing traditional Christian, you should pray every day.

00:37:44.472 --> 00:37:50.572
<v SPEAKER_1>It doesn't mean that every single day you will pray all of the daily offices, as it were.

00:37:51.352 --> 00:37:56.152
<v SPEAKER_1>You're not going to necessarily do your morning prayers and afternoon and evening.

00:37:56.972 --> 00:38:00.672
<v SPEAKER_1>But at some point during the day, you should say a prayer.

00:38:01.212 --> 00:38:04.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Even if it's just the Lord's Prayer, it's a good place to start.

00:38:04.632 --> 00:38:10.652
<v SPEAKER_1>So perhaps some of those who are listening have had problems in their prayer life or establishing that habit.

00:38:11.652 --> 00:38:15.152
<v SPEAKER_1>As we have recommended before, say the Lord's Prayer before every meal.

00:38:15.612 --> 00:38:16.832
<v SPEAKER_1>It's an easy place to start.

00:38:17.872 --> 00:38:20.052
<v SPEAKER_1>It takes barely any time to say it.

00:38:21.152 --> 00:38:22.632
<v SPEAKER_1>You probably already know the prayer.

00:38:22.652 --> 00:38:24.872
<v SPEAKER_1>If you don't, it takes minutes to memorize.

00:38:26.892 --> 00:38:29.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Prayer should be a part of your Christian life.

00:38:31.232 --> 00:38:39.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And we see in these data that it's really not for a very large percentage of Christians.

00:38:40.692 --> 00:38:46.632
<v SPEAKER_1>For the main line, it's about half, say, they pray daily, and then it tapers off from there.

00:38:49.292 --> 00:38:52.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, this should be 100% for those who claim to be Christian.

00:38:53.112 --> 00:38:56.152
<v SPEAKER_1>For those who are Christian, it should be 100%.

00:38:56.892 --> 00:38:59.052
<v SPEAKER_1>Prayer is part of the Christian life.

00:38:59.552 --> 00:39:03.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, it's not because we're saying that, oh, work save you, and prayer is a work.

00:39:04.172 --> 00:39:04.492
<v SPEAKER_1>No.

00:39:05.252 --> 00:39:08.272
<v SPEAKER_1>These things flow from a living faith.

00:39:09.032 --> 00:39:19.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when you see this sort of behavior, when you see this lack of response, you start to question whether or not the faith is living.

00:39:20.432 --> 00:39:27.072
<v SPEAKER_1>You look to all of the warnings in Scripture about a living faith versus a dead faith, or what is a good tree?

00:39:27.452 --> 00:39:30.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, a living faith is a good tree.

00:39:30.112 --> 00:39:31.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It's going to produce fruit.

00:39:32.332 --> 00:39:33.992
<v SPEAKER_1>The fruit it produces is good works.

00:39:35.332 --> 00:39:37.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, one of the things it produces is prayer.

00:39:38.912 --> 00:39:44.752
<v SPEAKER_1>So this is a very good metric for how seriously these groups take their faith.

00:39:46.012 --> 00:39:51.872
<v SPEAKER_1>And when it comes to the mainline Protestants, about half don't really take it very seriously at all.

00:39:53.712 --> 00:39:56.892
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a little better, again, for the Roman Catholics, 60%.

00:39:58.152 --> 00:39:59.352
<v SPEAKER_1>That's still not very good.

00:40:00.212 --> 00:40:07.312
<v SPEAKER_1>These are not the numbers that we want to see among our Christian brothers, those who claim to be Christian, at least.

00:40:09.352 --> 00:40:15.752
<v SPEAKER_1>We should want to see the actual fruits of a living faith in those who are saying they are Christian.

00:40:17.692 --> 00:40:39.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when we see, as we've mentioned before, these calls to go overseas and send money all these various places, and, you know, oh, we can go and build wells in Africa, whatever it happens to be, we have millions of our own people right next door who are claiming to be Christian, but in reality, probably are not.

00:40:40.332 --> 00:40:47.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Those are the men we need to be evangelizing, we need to be reaching out to those God has placed in our lives, our literal neighbors.

00:40:49.052 --> 00:41:00.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Because again, just because someone says he's Christian, dig a little deeper, see what he actually believes, see what he actually does in response to that claim of being a Christian.

00:41:02.712 --> 00:41:09.132
<v SPEAKER_2>The next question in the Pew study we want to highlight is the source of right and wrong in a person's life.

00:41:10.072 --> 00:41:15.852
<v SPEAKER_2>And they broke it into categories of religion or philosophy and reason, common sense and science.

00:41:16.392 --> 00:41:26.132
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm just going to lump everything in either religion or philosophy, common sense, science as one, because it's really either philosophy or it's manmade.

00:41:26.272 --> 00:41:31.212
<v SPEAKER_2>That's really all those are saying, this is a human creation, we did it.

00:41:31.952 --> 00:41:43.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Which is a big problem when you're talking about morality, because if your source of right and wrong is a man instead of an eternal God, well, that's the next question about absolute right and wrong.

00:41:43.832 --> 00:41:48.152
<v SPEAKER_2>When is something always wrong versus, and you know, they can go either way.

00:41:48.912 --> 00:42:01.792
<v SPEAKER_2>And, you know, there's an ambiguity to that question, because maybe there are situations where it's simply not clear, but that's usually where people are going to go scurrying to paper over their sins.

00:42:01.812 --> 00:42:07.752
<v SPEAKER_2>I think one of the best examples of that is abortion and fantaside, murdering infants in the womb.

00:42:08.452 --> 00:42:13.232
<v SPEAKER_2>People want to say, well, it's usually wrong, but sometimes you just got to kill that baby.

00:42:13.712 --> 00:42:14.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, he was coming right at me.

00:42:15.232 --> 00:42:15.452
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

00:42:15.832 --> 00:42:18.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Anytime you kill a baby, you're a murder.

00:42:18.192 --> 00:42:20.432
<v SPEAKER_2>You're the worst type of murderer imaginable.

00:42:20.972 --> 00:42:23.252
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a sacrifice to Satan when that's done.

00:42:23.912 --> 00:42:27.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And the idea that, oh, well, there's some extenuating circumstance where it's okay.

00:42:28.312 --> 00:42:29.392
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

00:42:29.712 --> 00:42:37.872
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not talking about the medical case where the mother and the child are both going to die, and the only thing the doctor can do is save the mother's life.

00:42:38.452 --> 00:42:41.752
<v SPEAKER_2>Those edge cases do not inform the moral question.

00:42:43.052 --> 00:42:44.952
<v SPEAKER_2>So the question of where do you get your right and wrong?

00:42:45.652 --> 00:42:51.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Among evangelicals, 60% say the right and wrong comes from religion, which would obviously be Christianity.

00:42:52.472 --> 00:42:55.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And mainline Romanists say 30%.

00:42:56.092 --> 00:43:00.852
<v SPEAKER_2>Everything else, the other 40% for evangelicals say man-made.

00:43:00.872 --> 00:43:05.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And 70% for the mainlines, for the Rainbow Coalition, says it's from man.

00:43:06.092 --> 00:43:06.832
<v SPEAKER_2>That's wild.

00:43:07.372 --> 00:43:16.752
<v SPEAKER_2>If only 30% of these non-evangelicals believe that right and wrong comes from God, it really kind of explains everything else downstream, doesn't it?

00:43:17.312 --> 00:43:18.012
<v SPEAKER_2>That's crazy.

00:43:18.312 --> 00:43:25.472
<v SPEAKER_2>The idea that morality, that right and wrong, are something that it's a philosophical question or a scientific question.

00:43:26.392 --> 00:43:32.872
<v SPEAKER_2>As soon as you crack that door open, there's no limit to the man-made wickedness that is going to enter into people's lives.

00:43:33.872 --> 00:43:38.612
<v SPEAKER_2>And in the case of the absolute morality, it's 50-50 for evangelicals.

00:43:39.672 --> 00:43:41.632
<v SPEAKER_2>And one-third to two-thirds for the others.

00:43:41.992 --> 00:43:45.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Or one-third says very clearly right and wrong.

00:43:45.412 --> 00:43:47.612
<v SPEAKER_2>Evangelicals, 50-50.

00:43:48.212 --> 00:43:49.812
<v SPEAKER_2>The rest of it is situational.

00:43:50.432 --> 00:43:51.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Or could it be either?

00:43:51.872 --> 00:43:52.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That's crazy.

00:43:53.092 --> 00:44:01.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Only half of the evangelicals, the good guys, the conservatives, only half of them believe that morality is always absolute.

00:44:01.812 --> 00:44:07.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And fully two-thirds of the mainline rainbow papists think that that's fine.

00:44:08.092 --> 00:44:08.872
<v SPEAKER_2>It's whatever, man.

00:44:09.172 --> 00:44:10.032
<v SPEAKER_2>It's situational.

00:44:10.232 --> 00:44:17.312
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't have to get bogged down in right and wrong all the time if you need it for flexibility.

00:44:18.752 --> 00:44:26.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Once you understand that these are the answers in the hearts of people who self-identify as Christian, a lot of other things start to make sense.

00:44:27.372 --> 00:44:38.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Just the sheer fact that amongst the mainline Protestants and the Roman Catholics, 50% say that common sense is their guidance for right and wrong is insane.

00:44:38.672 --> 00:44:42.992
<v SPEAKER_1>On one level, it doesn't mean anything.

00:44:45.612 --> 00:44:49.632
<v SPEAKER_1>How is it that common sense can possibly guide your moral decisions?

00:44:50.212 --> 00:44:51.892
<v SPEAKER_1>What is the source of that common sense?

00:44:51.912 --> 00:44:53.452
<v SPEAKER_1>On what are you grounding this?

00:44:53.952 --> 00:44:57.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Because bear in mind, religion is one of the options here.

00:44:57.512 --> 00:45:06.212
<v SPEAKER_1>So if they say common sense instead of religion, they're choosing common sense to the exclusion of religion with regard to their source for moral guidance.

00:45:08.392 --> 00:45:17.332
<v SPEAKER_1>It's an absolutely absurd statement and yet fully 50% for the mainline Protestants and the Roman Catholics say, no, common sense is my source of morality.

00:45:17.892 --> 00:45:19.692
<v SPEAKER_1>It's my guidance on what's right and wrong.

00:45:19.892 --> 00:45:24.692
<v SPEAKER_1>Not religion, not Christianity, not this faith I supposedly profess.

00:45:24.852 --> 00:45:26.872
<v SPEAKER_1>No, just common sense, what I happen to think.

00:45:27.732 --> 00:45:42.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And a full 10%, surprisingly, perhaps, more of the Roman Catholics than the mainline Protestants, a full 10% say, science is my source of morality, as if science has anything to say with regard to morality.

00:45:42.172 --> 00:45:45.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Science is, at best, amoral.

00:45:46.192 --> 00:45:48.912
<v SPEAKER_1>It provides no guidance whatsoever for right and wrong.

00:45:50.052 --> 00:46:03.272
<v SPEAKER_1>It can inform the ultimate decision on what is right and wrong insofar as, for instance, it can help you determine ethical issues with regard to medical treatment.

00:46:03.812 --> 00:46:12.552
<v SPEAKER_1>But ultimately, the decision is a religious one, because ultimately is Christianity that guides what is right or wrong.

00:46:12.912 --> 00:46:18.212
<v SPEAKER_1>You can gain information from the others, but the decision rests with religion.

00:46:18.872 --> 00:46:36.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the fact that you have two-thirds saying that other things, are the source of morality, instead of the Christian faith, it really tells you the dire situation of both the mainline Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church in the United States.

00:46:38.052 --> 00:46:41.812
<v SPEAKER_2>The next question is, how frequently are you engaged in Scripture?

00:46:41.832 --> 00:46:42.872
<v SPEAKER_2>How often are you reading the Bible?

00:46:44.072 --> 00:46:52.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Evangelicals, two-thirds say at least weekly, and about 20% say once in a while, and 20% say never, which is by itself awful.

00:46:52.872 --> 00:46:59.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Like that's for 20% of people who are the conservative Christians to never open their Bible is just bonkers.

00:47:00.612 --> 00:47:02.932
<v SPEAKER_2>And again, does that mean they're going to hell?

00:47:03.092 --> 00:47:03.412
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

00:47:03.812 --> 00:47:06.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Does it mean that their faith is at best on life support?

00:47:06.392 --> 00:47:07.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely.

00:47:07.812 --> 00:47:11.752
<v SPEAKER_2>What are you doing with your life if you never touch Scripture?

00:47:13.512 --> 00:47:14.892
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that's just the Evangelicals.

00:47:14.912 --> 00:47:21.912
<v SPEAKER_2>When you look at the mainlines, instead of being two-thirds at least weekly, mainline, three and ten, thirty percent.

00:47:21.932 --> 00:47:23.912
<v SPEAKER_2>And Romanists are a quarter, one and four.

00:47:23.932 --> 00:47:31.712
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's like I said, the only time that Romanists differ from the mainlines, from the Rainbow Coalition, is when they're even worse.

00:47:32.072 --> 00:47:41.652
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's particularly understandable in the case of Scripture because when you understand Romanist doctrine, it is the Magisterium in tradition and then Scripture.

00:47:41.832 --> 00:47:47.072
<v SPEAKER_2>And so as long as they have some of the other things, Scripture is less important to them definitionally.

00:47:47.512 --> 00:47:50.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, it's not to say that it's less important in the lives of certain individuals.

00:47:50.692 --> 00:47:54.852
<v SPEAKER_2>Clearly, 25% of Roman Catholics are reading their Bible at least weekly.

00:47:55.132 --> 00:47:55.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Great.

00:47:55.792 --> 00:47:57.052
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a good thing.

00:47:57.812 --> 00:47:58.912
<v SPEAKER_2>I hope that they understand it.

00:47:59.712 --> 00:48:02.452
<v SPEAKER_2>I hope it's in English and not in Latin, unlike their mass.

00:48:03.952 --> 00:48:10.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And then when you look in, you know, once the, so the Evangelicals occasionally are never, are basically 20% each.

00:48:11.072 --> 00:48:14.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Mainlines, a quarter once in a while will read their Bibles.

00:48:14.832 --> 00:48:16.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And nearly half never read their Bibles.

00:48:17.432 --> 00:48:18.012
<v SPEAKER_2>That's huge.

00:48:18.192 --> 00:48:22.512
<v SPEAKER_2>That's more than double the Evangelicals, the mainlines, just never crack their Bible open.

00:48:22.812 --> 00:48:27.552
<v SPEAKER_2>So it makes perfect sense while you see the rainbow flags and all the other crap, because what do they care?

00:48:27.792 --> 00:48:29.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Their source of morality is common sense.

00:48:29.532 --> 00:48:33.692
<v SPEAKER_2>And common sense says the rainbow flags are better for my tax deductibility.

00:48:34.752 --> 00:48:37.652
<v SPEAKER_2>And then Romanists once in a while, 20%.

00:48:37.912 --> 00:48:39.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Never over 50%.

00:48:40.132 --> 00:48:46.312
<v SPEAKER_2>So again, you know, they don't need the Bible because they have their Magisterium, they have their tradition, the Bible, whatever.

00:48:46.372 --> 00:48:47.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Someone else can explain that to them.

00:48:48.212 --> 00:48:49.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Not a good place to be for any Christian.

00:48:50.292 --> 00:48:52.452
<v SPEAKER_2>And yet it's kind of the historical norm for them.

00:48:52.692 --> 00:48:55.992
<v SPEAKER_2>It's one of the things that the Protestant Reformation was fought over.

00:48:56.692 --> 00:49:04.532
<v SPEAKER_2>The Reformation was not intended to be a battle, but it became a battle because Rome for centuries had been murdering men who tried to read their Bibles.

00:49:04.972 --> 00:49:07.732
<v SPEAKER_2>It was illegal for you to possess one in the vernacular.

00:49:07.992 --> 00:49:09.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Men were executed for that stuff.

00:49:09.572 --> 00:49:16.312
<v SPEAKER_2>So that hangover from five, six, seven centuries ago is still with them today.

00:49:16.872 --> 00:49:27.352
<v SPEAKER_2>These errors that creep into churches, they'll stick around for a long time after anyone remembers the history, because the pattern of life, once it's established, it just sticks with you.

00:49:27.592 --> 00:49:30.172
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's just what everybody does, and it becomes common sense.

00:49:30.732 --> 00:49:33.652
<v SPEAKER_2>And when that happens, why would you go looking for anything else?

00:49:33.672 --> 00:49:34.872
<v SPEAKER_2>I already have everything figured out.

00:49:35.092 --> 00:49:36.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Why would I open my Bible?

00:49:37.792 --> 00:49:53.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And you still see some of the more obnoxious apologists for the papacy, particularly on social media, defending not reading the Bible, which undoubtedly plays into this, because as Woe said, there is the idea that we'll know I need someone to interpret this for me.

00:49:55.332 --> 00:50:01.012
<v SPEAKER_1>I would encourage those who believe that to take a step back and look at the logic of what is being said there.

00:50:02.212 --> 00:50:09.892
<v SPEAKER_1>If someone else needs to interpret Scripture for you, and I'm not saying that teachers are unnecessary, because of course teachers are a good thing.

00:50:09.912 --> 00:50:10.612
<v SPEAKER_1>That's what we're doing here.

00:50:10.632 --> 00:50:11.152
<v SPEAKER_1>We're teaching.

00:50:12.452 --> 00:50:16.792
<v SPEAKER_1>However, what a teacher says, you still have to understand.

00:50:18.092 --> 00:50:29.172
<v SPEAKER_1>So when you say that Scripture needs to be interpreted, what you are really asserting is that God is less clear in His communication with man than is man.

00:50:30.992 --> 00:50:33.952
<v SPEAKER_1>God gave us His word so that we can understand it.

00:50:34.312 --> 00:50:41.392
<v SPEAKER_1>He gave us His word because it contains things He wants us to know, things He wants us to do, things He wants us not to do.

00:50:42.272 --> 00:50:48.612
<v SPEAKER_1>God is capable of communicating in such a way that we humans can understand what He communicated.

00:50:49.432 --> 00:50:52.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And so it is vitally important for Christians to read Scripture.

00:50:53.172 --> 00:51:00.512
<v SPEAKER_1>More than half of any group claiming to be Christian not reading Scripture at all is unconscionable.

00:51:01.932 --> 00:51:03.912
<v SPEAKER_1>It's simply anti-Christian.

00:51:05.332 --> 00:51:06.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, you still need teachers.

00:51:06.792 --> 00:51:13.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, it's important to still attend those services and to attend classes or otherwise study the Scripture.

00:51:15.232 --> 00:51:16.572
<v SPEAKER_1>But you need that foundation.

00:51:17.632 --> 00:51:20.612
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to have actually read the Scriptures yourself.

00:51:21.612 --> 00:51:22.452
<v SPEAKER_1>That's part of this.

00:51:23.332 --> 00:51:29.672
<v SPEAKER_1>If you were going to discuss any book at a book club, you would probably read it first.

00:51:31.972 --> 00:51:36.352
<v SPEAKER_1>You should most certainly read the Bible, if you are a Christian.

00:51:37.112 --> 00:51:38.272
<v SPEAKER_1>God gave us a book.

00:51:38.852 --> 00:51:49.372
<v SPEAKER_1>God wrote a book for us, transmitted it through a number of men down through the centuries, but He gave us a book containing the things, again, that He wants us to know, do, not do.

00:51:51.572 --> 00:51:52.752
<v SPEAKER_1>Why would we not read that?

00:51:54.652 --> 00:51:59.392
<v SPEAKER_1>The idea that anyone should avoid reading the Bible is crazy.

00:52:00.332 --> 00:52:02.092
<v SPEAKER_1>What does Scripture say about Scripture?

00:52:03.372 --> 00:52:05.512
<v SPEAKER_1>Scripture says that it's necessary.

00:52:06.132 --> 00:52:09.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Scripture says that it prepares us for various things.

00:52:10.952 --> 00:52:20.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Basically, most things in life, particularly being a Christian, it is the content of the Christian faith, and all of these questions we are discussing today.

00:52:21.052 --> 00:52:30.852
<v SPEAKER_1>Perhaps the numbers would be better on a lot of them if this particular number weren't so bad, if men were actually reading the Scripture as they should be.

00:52:31.992 --> 00:52:42.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Because even for the Evangelical Protestants, even for the group that is the best at this, as Woe said, 20%, seldom or never read the Scriptures.

00:52:43.812 --> 00:52:54.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And 7% is several times a year, which maybe we can doubt the memory of those who say, well, I read it a couple times last year.

00:52:57.312 --> 00:53:04.872
<v SPEAKER_1>So it's basically a quarter who virtually never read the Scripture, even amongst the most Christian group in the United States.

00:53:06.312 --> 00:53:08.932
<v SPEAKER_1>That's simply unacceptable.

00:53:09.592 --> 00:53:12.752
<v SPEAKER_1>This is an enormous problem in all of our churches.

00:53:13.472 --> 00:53:24.992
<v SPEAKER_1>This is not just a problem in the mainline Protestants or the Roman Catholics, because those numbers that I just gave, that we've gone over a couple times now, are the best numbers.

00:53:26.112 --> 00:53:32.272
<v SPEAKER_1>These are the most Christian among Christians who still are barely reading their Bible in many cases.

00:53:34.572 --> 00:53:45.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And these individuals in this particular group don't even have the argument that some of the Roman Catholics have that the Magisterium told me don't read it, or they said they'll interpret it for me.

00:53:46.192 --> 00:53:47.812
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not the case for Evangelicals.

00:53:49.012 --> 00:53:56.212
<v SPEAKER_1>One of the core beliefs amongst Evangelical Christians, as Woe said in the introduction, is believing the Bible.

00:53:58.212 --> 00:54:00.832
<v SPEAKER_1>If you believe the Bible, you should probably read it so you know what's in it.

00:54:02.012 --> 00:54:04.212
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't read it so that you can believe it.

00:54:04.732 --> 00:54:06.832
<v SPEAKER_1>You believe it, therefore you should read it.

00:54:07.152 --> 00:54:08.932
<v SPEAKER_1>And you believe it because it's the Word of God.

00:54:10.072 --> 00:54:23.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the fact that we have a quarter of those who most firmly affirm, who most firmly believe that the Bible is the Word of God, are not reading it, is an insane state of affairs.

00:54:24.712 --> 00:54:33.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet we still have these individuals claiming to be staunch Christians, but not doing any of the things that Christians are supposed to do.

00:54:34.932 --> 00:54:38.552
<v SPEAKER_2>This next question answers where some of that gap comes from.

00:54:39.052 --> 00:54:41.792
<v SPEAKER_2>And that is the question of interpreting Scripture.

00:54:43.052 --> 00:54:47.152
<v SPEAKER_2>The first category of answers is Scripture is the Word of God, literally.

00:54:47.632 --> 00:54:49.812
<v SPEAKER_2>The second is the Word of God, but not all of it.

00:54:50.172 --> 00:54:52.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And the third is it's not the Word of God at all.

00:54:53.032 --> 00:54:59.932
<v SPEAKER_2>And so evangelicals, the superstars of Christianity, only 55% say it's literally the Word of God.

00:55:00.512 --> 00:55:03.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Another third say it's the Word of God, but not all of it.

00:55:03.772 --> 00:55:06.372
<v SPEAKER_2>And 12% deny that Scripture is the Word of God.

00:55:06.672 --> 00:55:09.932
<v SPEAKER_2>So that's going to be the bulk of those who don't read it all the time.

00:55:10.192 --> 00:55:10.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Why would they?

00:55:11.212 --> 00:55:14.512
<v SPEAKER_2>If Scripture is not breathed out by God, yeah, why would you waste your time?

00:55:14.812 --> 00:55:17.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe there are books like you enjoy Cosmo or something more.

00:55:18.312 --> 00:55:20.172
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't, why would you waste your time with your Bible?

00:55:20.492 --> 00:55:21.732
<v SPEAKER_2>That's what we're talking about there.

00:55:21.752 --> 00:55:25.192
<v SPEAKER_2>So like this is in evangelical churches.

00:55:25.212 --> 00:55:30.692
<v SPEAKER_2>These are the hardcore conservative Christian bodies, not the conservative Christians among them.

00:55:31.232 --> 00:55:32.272
<v SPEAKER_2>But yeah, that's the problem.

00:55:32.652 --> 00:55:38.832
<v SPEAKER_2>When you're looking at the numbers game, I'm not gamifying salvation, but that's the term for it.

00:55:39.012 --> 00:55:42.092
<v SPEAKER_2>When you're just looking at raw numbers, this is what we see.

00:55:42.892 --> 00:55:48.492
<v SPEAKER_2>The most conservative bodies, one in eight, don't believe Scripture is the Word of God.

00:55:48.512 --> 00:55:49.592
<v SPEAKER_2>They don't believe it's Scripture.

00:55:49.952 --> 00:55:50.972
<v SPEAKER_2>They think it's the Bible.

00:55:50.992 --> 00:55:54.412
<v SPEAKER_2>They think it's a collection of books written by men.

00:55:54.832 --> 00:55:58.012
<v SPEAKER_2>And maybe there's wisdom and stuff, but it's not breathed out by God.

00:55:59.112 --> 00:56:05.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And so contrasting the evangelicals, the top out of 55% believing it's literal, main lines less than a quarter.

00:56:06.212 --> 00:56:10.672
<v SPEAKER_2>And Rome also write at a quarter, believing it's literally the Word of God.

00:56:11.152 --> 00:56:16.432
<v SPEAKER_2>25% of main lines in Roman Catholics believe Scripture is breathed out by God.

00:56:17.372 --> 00:56:18.912
<v SPEAKER_2>That's completely catastrophic.

00:56:19.192 --> 00:56:25.592
<v SPEAKER_2>And everything downstream from that, elsewhere in their lives, is a function of that denial of Scripture.

00:56:26.452 --> 00:56:31.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Now Rome has a get out of jail free card that they got the Pope and other stuff, so they need to worry about it.

00:56:31.572 --> 00:56:35.592
<v SPEAKER_2>The main lines, they don't, like, God is, he's a wax nose.

00:56:35.612 --> 00:56:38.892
<v SPEAKER_2>God is whatever they need him to be to feel good about themselves.

00:56:39.792 --> 00:56:42.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And so, you know, for the main lines, a quarter believe it's literal.

00:56:42.912 --> 00:56:45.732
<v SPEAKER_2>40% believe it's the Word of God, but not all of it.

00:56:46.132 --> 00:56:47.112
<v SPEAKER_2>Rome is at the same.

00:56:47.552 --> 00:56:51.012
<v SPEAKER_2>And then over two-thirds of both deny that Scripture is the Word of God.

00:56:51.452 --> 00:56:57.212
<v SPEAKER_2>Over two-thirds of main line, over two-thirds of Roman Catholics expressly deny Scripture.

00:56:57.392 --> 00:56:59.172
<v SPEAKER_2>They say this is not breathed out by God.

00:57:00.012 --> 00:57:01.112
<v SPEAKER_2>That is apostasy.

00:57:01.552 --> 00:57:05.852
<v SPEAKER_2>To deny that Scripture is from God is to deny the Christian faith.

00:57:06.672 --> 00:57:15.332
<v SPEAKER_2>That is to say that more than one-third of those in Rome and main line denominations, just by this one question, have no promise of salvation.

00:57:15.672 --> 00:57:16.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Are they all damned?

00:57:16.772 --> 00:57:17.232
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

00:57:17.472 --> 00:57:18.072
<v SPEAKER_2>I hope not.

00:57:18.452 --> 00:57:20.492
<v SPEAKER_2>But where do they go from there?

00:57:21.212 --> 00:57:24.812
<v SPEAKER_2>If they deny Scripture, where are they getting anything?

00:57:25.252 --> 00:57:28.712
<v SPEAKER_2>And so this starts to make sense of the answer about morality.

00:57:29.012 --> 00:57:32.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Of course, they need to get their morality from TV, from common sense, from science.

00:57:32.932 --> 00:57:35.212
<v SPEAKER_2>They can't get it from Scripture because it's just made up by God.

00:57:35.732 --> 00:57:36.672
<v SPEAKER_2>It's made up by man.

00:57:36.692 --> 00:57:37.852
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not from God at all.

00:57:39.512 --> 00:57:47.472
<v SPEAKER_2>All these things are interlocking pieces, which is why we're going through a number of these different questions, because by itself, one question doesn't illuminate everything.

00:57:48.092 --> 00:57:51.092
<v SPEAKER_2>It certainly doesn't tell you in most cases if someone's saved.

00:57:51.572 --> 00:57:57.572
<v SPEAKER_2>But when you start to see the questions shining lights back at each other, suddenly the whole picture becomes clear.

00:57:57.592 --> 00:58:01.532
<v SPEAKER_2>It's like, well, yeah, of course they don't believe this, because they deny this.

00:58:02.312 --> 00:58:14.112
<v SPEAKER_2>And that is when it becomes clear that we're not just talking about a few errors, but we're talking about a significant portion of many major church bodies in the United States that simply aren't Christian.

00:58:15.212 --> 00:58:17.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, we're not declaring damnation.

00:58:17.212 --> 00:58:20.672
<v SPEAKER_2>We're just saying, if there's Christianity here, there's no evidence for it.

00:58:21.212 --> 00:58:22.912
<v SPEAKER_2>It's like pointing a telescope at the moon.

00:58:23.152 --> 00:58:24.392
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't see anything moving.

00:58:24.832 --> 00:58:26.132
<v SPEAKER_2>There are no heat signatures.

00:58:26.592 --> 00:58:29.012
<v SPEAKER_2>You can state, there's no life there.

00:58:29.292 --> 00:58:31.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And then you go and you look and you're like, yep, there's nothing here.

00:58:31.552 --> 00:58:36.132
<v SPEAKER_2>If there are no signs of life, that is itself proof of the absence of life.

00:58:36.532 --> 00:58:44.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, spiritual life is slightly different and that only God can actually see it and discern it, but you can detect it.

00:58:45.592 --> 00:58:48.332
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't need to judge your heart to know if you're lying about God.

00:58:48.732 --> 00:58:52.792
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't need to judge your heart to know that you're living a life that's profligate and wicked.

00:58:54.012 --> 00:59:03.692
<v SPEAKER_2>And some of the other questions we'll get into, get into some of those specifics where these people that deny scripture, of course, they're going to deny that morality is fixed, that it's absolute.

00:59:04.232 --> 00:59:05.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That is license.

00:59:06.092 --> 00:59:08.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Once you've done that, that's your permission slip.

00:59:08.592 --> 00:59:09.072
<v SPEAKER_2>From whom?

00:59:09.092 --> 00:59:10.852
<v SPEAKER_2>Not from God, because there's basically no God.

00:59:10.872 --> 00:59:19.052
<v SPEAKER_2>You have a permission slip from yourself and from reason and from Neil deGrasse Tyson that you can do whatever doesn't hurt anybody else.

00:59:19.552 --> 00:59:20.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Do as thou wilt.

00:59:21.272 --> 00:59:23.892
<v SPEAKER_2>That's kind of where we see a lot of people in our churches today.

00:59:24.092 --> 00:59:25.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Not necessarily our church.

00:59:25.112 --> 00:59:30.112
<v SPEAKER_2>It's probably most people listening to Stone Choir are members of these bad congregations.

00:59:30.392 --> 00:59:31.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And they're bad congregations.

00:59:31.912 --> 00:59:40.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Even in the most conservative evangelical bodies, there are horrible, wildly left-wing congregations that are openly enemies of God.

00:59:41.912 --> 00:59:43.872
<v SPEAKER_2>No one gets a clean bill of health here.

00:59:44.332 --> 00:59:48.272
<v SPEAKER_2>So when we call out specifics, it's just like, this is an example we should all flee from.

00:59:49.312 --> 00:59:56.992
<v SPEAKER_2>That when you flee to another church body and you find the same crap in smaller numbers, you got to put out that fire, because it's going to take people to hell with it.

00:59:58.592 --> 01:00:09.132
<v SPEAKER_1>As Will mentioned in a recent episode, being a Christian, if you don't believe it's true, is an absolutely insane choice.

01:00:11.252 --> 01:00:16.252
<v SPEAKER_1>If you don't believe that Scripture is the Word of God, why on earth would you be a Christian?

01:00:17.512 --> 01:00:21.512
<v SPEAKER_1>It isn't going to make your life easier in virtually all cases.

01:00:22.292 --> 01:00:27.392
<v SPEAKER_1>It is going to make your life more difficult, significantly more difficult in some cases.

01:00:28.592 --> 01:00:33.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It's going to prevent you from doing some of the things the flesh tells you it would like to do.

01:00:34.452 --> 01:00:42.872
<v SPEAKER_1>And well, if there's no God, as we showed many believe, and if the Bible isn't the Word of God, then why not just go do those things?

01:00:44.032 --> 01:00:51.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Hedonism makes a lot more sense insofar as there's any sense whatsoever in a meaningless universe, if that's what you happen to believe.

01:00:52.552 --> 01:01:01.412
<v SPEAKER_1>Why would you be a Christian if you don't believe any of the things Christianity teaches, any of the tenets of the religion?

01:01:01.992 --> 01:01:03.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It doesn't make any sense.

01:01:05.032 --> 01:01:13.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, there's that force of inertia, particularly when it comes to some of the mainline churches, but particularly in the case of the Roman Catholics.

01:01:13.492 --> 01:01:22.592
<v SPEAKER_1>You'll get those who will say, well, my family has been Roman Catholic for 15 generations or 20 or however long it happens to be, as far back as you can trace.

01:01:24.432 --> 01:01:31.532
<v SPEAKER_1>But if you don't believe any of the things that Christianity actually teaches, why on earth are you still going to church?

01:01:33.032 --> 01:01:35.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Why are you saying that you're a Christian?

01:01:37.292 --> 01:01:38.312
<v SPEAKER_1>There's no point.

01:01:38.912 --> 01:01:41.352
<v SPEAKER_1>It doesn't make anything better for you.

01:01:42.272 --> 01:01:47.952
<v SPEAKER_1>In fact, the only thing it can potentially do is if you're wrong, it's going to make things worse for you.

01:01:49.652 --> 01:01:54.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Because falsely claiming that you are a Christian is worse than just not being one.

01:01:56.952 --> 01:02:03.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Just as it is worse to commit an evil act with full knowledge than it is to commit it in ignorance.

01:02:04.672 --> 01:02:13.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if you don't believe that Scripture is the Word of God, if you don't believe there even is a God, why would you claim to be a Christian?

01:02:13.972 --> 01:02:21.812
<v SPEAKER_1>Yet that's exactly what we see a significant percentage of those, particularly in the mainline Protestant and the Roman Catholic Church doing.

01:02:23.272 --> 01:02:25.352
<v SPEAKER_1>It's an absolutely insane state of affairs.

01:02:25.372 --> 01:02:40.412
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, it's terrible at the same time, because we have those who are ostensibly brothers and sisters in Christ who don't believe any of the things that the Christian faith teaches, any of the things you have to believe to actually be a Christian.

01:02:42.912 --> 01:02:45.672
<v SPEAKER_1>But it's also just wildly illogical.

01:02:46.132 --> 01:02:49.532
<v SPEAKER_1>There's no reason to be a Christian if it isn't true.

01:02:51.112 --> 01:02:58.792
<v SPEAKER_1>The reason that we are Christians, the reason we do the podcast, the reason we cover these topics, is because we believe these things.

01:02:59.412 --> 01:03:05.632
<v SPEAKER_1>If we didn't believe them, what we're doing, what we're saying, all of this would be insane.

01:03:07.972 --> 01:03:14.672
<v SPEAKER_1>What is the benefit of sticking out your neck, because that's really what you're doing, if it isn't for the truth?

01:03:15.732 --> 01:03:16.412
<v SPEAKER_1>There isn't one.

01:03:17.652 --> 01:03:21.292
<v SPEAKER_1>It is behavior that is worthy of being committed to a mental institution.

01:03:22.652 --> 01:03:27.092
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet that's what we see with a significant percentage of those in our churches.

01:03:29.372 --> 01:03:32.012
<v SPEAKER_1>This is an abject failure of teaching.

01:03:33.332 --> 01:03:35.452
<v SPEAKER_1>We have pastors who are not doing their duties.

01:03:35.952 --> 01:03:38.012
<v SPEAKER_1>We have teachers who are not doing their duty.

01:03:39.012 --> 01:03:55.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Apparently, teaching is just not a thing in many churches in the United States, because these are issues that should be addressed in the first class for a new member, or the first Bible study the person attends.

01:03:57.092 --> 01:04:05.172
<v SPEAKER_1>How can you possibly attend a church that is supposedly faithful, and not believe that the Bible is the Word of God?

01:04:06.132 --> 01:04:08.012
<v SPEAKER_1>How can you arrive at that conclusion?

01:04:10.872 --> 01:04:25.012
<v SPEAKER_1>We have a great deal of faithless pastors and faithless teachers in our churches, and they need to be removed, because they are the reason that this sort of thing is happening.

01:04:25.572 --> 01:04:29.032
<v SPEAKER_1>These numbers are the result of wolves in sheep's clothing.

01:04:30.832 --> 01:04:39.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And yes, there are souls on the line here, those who are taught incorrectly, or maliciously in some cases, and wind up believing these lies.

01:04:40.952 --> 01:04:44.272
<v SPEAKER_1>As Woe said, they have no promise of salvation.

01:04:45.492 --> 01:04:47.252
<v SPEAKER_1>It doesn't mean they are necessarily damned.

01:04:49.892 --> 01:04:51.852
<v SPEAKER_1>But is that the standard you want?

01:04:53.032 --> 01:04:56.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Is that the sort of comfort you want to give?

01:04:57.112 --> 01:04:59.912
<v SPEAKER_1>Is that the position in which you want to find yourself or others?

01:05:00.492 --> 01:05:02.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, you aren't necessarily damned.

01:05:04.372 --> 01:05:08.632
<v SPEAKER_1>I think we would probably hope for something a little more comforting than that.

01:05:09.832 --> 01:05:17.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, and if you don't believe God even exists, you don't have a promise of salvation.

01:05:20.312 --> 01:05:25.672
<v SPEAKER_2>The next two questions go directly to the context of salvation.

01:05:25.692 --> 01:05:28.692
<v SPEAKER_2>The first one is, do you believe in heaven and do you believe in hell?

01:05:30.132 --> 01:05:33.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And hilariously, the numbers aren't the same in both cases.

01:05:33.992 --> 01:05:37.352
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm just going to give the don't believes because it's a very simple question.

01:05:37.812 --> 01:05:40.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's either do you believe or you don't believe or you don't know.

01:05:40.772 --> 01:05:42.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And if you don't know, that's the same as saying you don't believe.

01:05:42.972 --> 01:05:44.092
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's the same thing.

01:05:45.152 --> 01:05:50.172
<v SPEAKER_2>Among evangelicals, 10%, slightly over 10%, don't believe in heaven.

01:05:51.212 --> 01:05:52.192
<v SPEAKER_2>None of them are going to heaven.

01:05:52.532 --> 01:05:54.212
<v SPEAKER_2>If you don't believe in heaven, you're not saved.

01:05:54.772 --> 01:05:56.192
<v SPEAKER_2>These are both in the creeds.

01:05:56.292 --> 01:06:03.892
<v SPEAKER_2>These are both in the definition of Christianity that every Christian must accept because it's straight from scripture.

01:06:04.472 --> 01:06:07.652
<v SPEAKER_2>If you don't believe that there's a heaven, you're going to go to hell.

01:06:08.572 --> 01:06:11.532
<v SPEAKER_2>So 10% of evangelicals don't believe in heaven.

01:06:11.872 --> 01:06:14.812
<v SPEAKER_2>20% of the main lines don't believe in heaven.

01:06:15.252 --> 01:06:18.352
<v SPEAKER_2>15% of Roman Catholics don't believe in heaven.

01:06:19.092 --> 01:06:19.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Seriously?

01:06:19.692 --> 01:06:21.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, how is that even possible?

01:06:21.732 --> 01:06:27.012
<v SPEAKER_2>As Corey just said, they're being eaten and devoured by wolves in their churches.

01:06:27.752 --> 01:06:34.012
<v SPEAKER_2>No Christian can possibly go to a church and believe this if it's a Christian church.

01:06:34.332 --> 01:06:39.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Any Christian church is going to make it unavoidable that there's a heaven and that there's a hell.

01:06:40.112 --> 01:06:42.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Also in the creeds, also in scripture.

01:06:43.132 --> 01:06:46.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And so evangelical denial of hell is 20%.

01:06:46.912 --> 01:06:49.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Mainline denial of hell doubles 40%.

01:06:50.312 --> 01:06:53.272
<v SPEAKER_2>40% of the rainbow people say there's no hell.

01:06:54.232 --> 01:06:55.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Bad news for them on Judgment Day.

01:06:55.812 --> 01:06:57.932
<v SPEAKER_2>100% of them are going to end up in it.

01:06:58.292 --> 01:07:00.632
<v SPEAKER_2>This is a do not pass go question.

01:07:01.052 --> 01:07:03.892
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't say that there's no hell and have any promise of salvation.

01:07:04.172 --> 01:07:05.192
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not going to happen.

01:07:05.672 --> 01:07:07.612
<v SPEAKER_2>And Rome is right behind them at 30%.

01:07:07.632 --> 01:07:10.752
<v SPEAKER_2>It's basically 40% for both main lines and for Rome.

01:07:11.132 --> 01:07:13.472
<v SPEAKER_2>And then obviously the belief is the flip side of that.

01:07:15.572 --> 01:07:24.932
<v SPEAKER_2>On one hand, it's bonkers that you have 80 to 90% saying that heaven does exist and yet only 60 to 80% saying that hell exists.

01:07:25.472 --> 01:07:29.252
<v SPEAKER_2>That clearly shows that a lot of people hold a mercenary faith.

01:07:29.852 --> 01:07:34.832
<v SPEAKER_2>They're Christian because they want to go to heaven, but they don't believe in that hell stuff.

01:07:34.852 --> 01:07:35.672
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not their God.

01:07:35.852 --> 01:07:36.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Their God doesn't do hell.

01:07:36.992 --> 01:07:38.032
<v SPEAKER_2>He doesn't do damnation.

01:07:38.172 --> 01:07:39.672
<v SPEAKER_2>There's no judgment from their God.

01:07:40.492 --> 01:07:46.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Bad news from them because on Judgment Day, on the Judgment Throne, is the Judge of the World.

01:07:47.092 --> 01:07:48.412
<v SPEAKER_2>That's Jesus Christ.

01:07:48.432 --> 01:07:50.292
<v SPEAKER_2>He's sitting there judging us.

01:07:51.012 --> 01:07:58.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's good news for Christians because we know that our robes are washed white and in His blood that was sacrificed on the cross.

01:07:58.612 --> 01:08:00.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Everyone else doesn't have white robes.

01:08:01.052 --> 01:08:08.132
<v SPEAKER_2>They have robes that are stained filthy with the sins that we all accumulate throughout our entire lives, beginning the moment we're conceived.

01:08:09.532 --> 01:08:16.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Without Christ's sacrifice, you don't get heaven and you do get hell because those are the only two options.

01:08:17.832 --> 01:08:19.912
<v SPEAKER_2>This also excludes annihilationism.

01:08:20.192 --> 01:08:22.032
<v SPEAKER_2>There's some folks that try to split the difference.

01:08:22.052 --> 01:08:26.152
<v SPEAKER_2>They say, well, yeah, if you're good or if you're Christian, you go to heaven.

01:08:26.172 --> 01:08:30.252
<v SPEAKER_2>If you were bad, if you weren't a Christian, well, you just vanish.

01:08:30.492 --> 01:08:32.272
<v SPEAKER_2>You just disappear from the universe.

01:08:33.212 --> 01:08:35.232
<v SPEAKER_2>Scripture is very clear that that is not true.

01:08:35.252 --> 01:08:42.552
<v SPEAKER_2>It is a definition of the Christian faith that there is a hell that was prepared for Satan, and the goats are going to be thrown in with them.

01:08:42.892 --> 01:08:43.932
<v SPEAKER_2>It's what God says.

01:08:43.952 --> 01:08:45.132
<v SPEAKER_2>It's what he promises.

01:08:45.552 --> 01:08:47.812
<v SPEAKER_2>If you believe in God, you have to believe that.

01:08:47.972 --> 01:08:49.452
<v SPEAKER_2>This isn't bad news.

01:08:50.152 --> 01:08:53.352
<v SPEAKER_2>When Christians say these things, people are like, oh, that's fire and brimstone.

01:08:53.852 --> 01:08:55.252
<v SPEAKER_2>It's literally just in the Bible.

01:08:55.952 --> 01:08:58.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it fire and brimstone if you're on the wrong side of it?

01:08:58.352 --> 01:08:58.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, yeah.

01:08:59.672 --> 01:09:02.072
<v SPEAKER_2>So the solution is get on the right side of it.

01:09:02.632 --> 01:09:04.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Accept Christ's sacrifice for you.

01:09:05.032 --> 01:09:06.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Receive the gift of faith.

01:09:06.852 --> 01:09:08.632
<v SPEAKER_2>God wants everyone to have faith.

01:09:08.992 --> 01:09:10.372
<v SPEAKER_2>God offers it to everyone.

01:09:10.392 --> 01:09:13.632
<v SPEAKER_2>We have to reject him continuously for our entire lives.

01:09:14.252 --> 01:09:16.332
<v SPEAKER_2>And a lot of people are clearly pulling it off.

01:09:16.552 --> 01:09:19.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And they're pulling it off even inside churches that call themselves Christian.

01:09:21.032 --> 01:09:25.992
<v SPEAKER_1>This is a good point to emphasize something Woe just mentioned in passing.

01:09:27.032 --> 01:09:27.672
<v SPEAKER_1>The creeds.

01:09:28.772 --> 01:09:31.272
<v SPEAKER_1>We've gone over the importance of the creeds before.

01:09:32.472 --> 01:09:41.412
<v SPEAKER_1>But perhaps in this episode more than any other, the vital importance of the creeds is demonstrated with almost every question.

01:09:43.512 --> 01:09:45.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Because the creeds address most of these issues.

01:09:47.592 --> 01:09:58.452
<v SPEAKER_1>If you recite the creeds, and if your pastor properly teaches the creeds, because that should certainly be part of it, you shouldn't just recite the creeds and then, oh, I'm good, I'm done.

01:10:00.312 --> 01:10:06.312
<v SPEAKER_1>There should be teaching about what exactly each part of the creeds means, references to Scripture.

01:10:06.312 --> 01:10:07.312
<v SPEAKER_1>We have that information.

01:10:07.332 --> 01:10:08.972
<v SPEAKER_1>We can add that in the show notes.

01:10:11.552 --> 01:10:16.872
<v SPEAKER_1>But the creeds are a vital part of Christianity, because they teach the basics of the faith.

01:10:18.072 --> 01:10:22.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And when you recite the creeds every week, you are reciting that faith.

01:10:22.232 --> 01:10:24.652
<v SPEAKER_1>You are reinforcing your belief in that faith.

01:10:25.192 --> 01:10:28.872
<v SPEAKER_1>You are stating what it is to be a Christian.

01:10:28.892 --> 01:10:31.312
<v SPEAKER_1>What is the content of the Christian faith?

01:10:32.052 --> 01:10:41.292
<v SPEAKER_1>And so some of these errors, it would be very difficult to continue believing these, to persist in these particular errors, if you are reciting the creeds.

01:10:41.932 --> 01:10:46.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's why it's such a problem that certain churches have abandoned the creeds.

01:10:47.852 --> 01:10:52.112
<v SPEAKER_1>In some of the more egregious cases, some churches have altered the creeds.

01:10:52.132 --> 01:10:59.972
<v SPEAKER_1>I know some of the mainline churches, the more demonic, quite frankly, ones, have changed it in order to fit their ideology.

01:11:02.432 --> 01:11:08.532
<v SPEAKER_1>If your church does not use the creeds, you should probably consider asking your pastor why.

01:11:10.372 --> 01:11:14.132
<v SPEAKER_1>With what statement in the creeds do you disagree?

01:11:15.172 --> 01:11:21.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And if he has an answer to that, and if he gives you a part of the creed with which he disagrees, you need to find a new church.

01:11:22.432 --> 01:11:26.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Because every single thing in the creeds is from Scripture.

01:11:27.952 --> 01:11:33.232
<v SPEAKER_1>They are simply creedal forms of what is taught in Scripture.

01:11:34.592 --> 01:11:41.992
<v SPEAKER_1>They are formulated as a creed so they can be memorized, so they can be recited in the service.

01:11:43.352 --> 01:11:44.592
<v SPEAKER_1>They are not new doctrine.

01:11:44.752 --> 01:11:46.172
<v SPEAKER_1>They are not reformulations.

01:11:46.812 --> 01:11:50.272
<v SPEAKER_1>They are simply a statement of what is in Scripture.

01:11:50.612 --> 01:11:54.012
<v SPEAKER_1>And so a Christian cannot disagree with the creeds.

01:11:55.172 --> 01:11:59.912
<v SPEAKER_1>And we can see the consequence in certain denominations of abandoning the creeds.

01:12:00.632 --> 01:12:08.152
<v SPEAKER_1>There are errors that creep in that are explicitly addressed in the creeds that would not creep in if the creeds were still used.

01:12:10.572 --> 01:12:18.792
<v SPEAKER_2>The last few questions from the Pew survey have to do with moral questions in secular life.

01:12:19.772 --> 01:12:21.192
<v SPEAKER_2>The first is on abortion.

01:12:21.212 --> 01:12:22.692
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't think there's a lot to say about this.

01:12:22.712 --> 01:12:23.952
<v SPEAKER_2>Just give you the raw numbers.

01:12:24.752 --> 01:12:29.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Evangelicals, one third believe that abortion, the murder of infants in the womb should be legal.

01:12:30.592 --> 01:12:31.892
<v SPEAKER_2>One third say, yeah, go for it.

01:12:32.072 --> 01:12:32.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Kill that baby.

01:12:33.472 --> 01:12:35.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Mainline, it's nearly two thirds.

01:12:36.072 --> 01:12:37.452
<v SPEAKER_2>In Rome, it's 50-50.

01:12:40.492 --> 01:12:45.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Does someone who wants sacrificing babies of Satan have a promise of salvation?

01:12:47.872 --> 01:12:48.112
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

01:12:48.472 --> 01:12:48.992
<v SPEAKER_2>No, they don't.

01:12:49.492 --> 01:12:51.792
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not even table stakes for Christianity.

01:12:52.272 --> 01:12:54.712
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's not that we need to add abortion to the creeds.

01:12:55.312 --> 01:12:59.612
<v SPEAKER_2>It's that even the pagans know better than this.

01:13:00.492 --> 01:13:10.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Even pagans have to have gone very far down the path of absolute satanic abject depravity before they're going to start killing their babies.

01:13:11.092 --> 01:13:18.672
<v SPEAKER_2>And today it's been normalized in our society to the point that among evangelicals, among the conservatives, forget what the church bodies teach.

01:13:19.352 --> 01:13:31.452
<v SPEAKER_2>The individuals sitting in the pews or not in the pews, depending, those who identify as Christians, one-third of evangelicals say kill the baby, two-thirds of the mainline say kill the baby, half of Roman Catholics say kill the baby.

01:13:32.392 --> 01:13:45.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Even though Rome is putatively anti-abortion, and thank God for it, because at least that dicta from Rome is enough to keep some people in line.

01:13:45.512 --> 01:13:48.012
<v SPEAKER_2>Even at that, half of them are like, yeah, kill the baby.

01:13:48.032 --> 01:13:52.132
<v SPEAKER_2>The next one is sodomy.

01:13:53.012 --> 01:13:54.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Should it be accepted?

01:13:54.792 --> 01:13:55.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Should it be discouraged?

01:13:56.212 --> 01:13:57.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Should we not care?

01:13:57.812 --> 01:13:59.872
<v SPEAKER_2>A third of evangelicals say, yeah, accept it.

01:13:59.892 --> 01:14:00.392
<v SPEAKER_2>That's great.

01:14:00.972 --> 01:14:05.212
<v SPEAKER_2>Over half say it should be discouraged, and about 10% are just totally indifferent.

01:14:05.832 --> 01:14:08.052
<v SPEAKER_2>Mainline, two-thirds accept it.

01:14:08.332 --> 01:14:13.872
<v SPEAKER_2>So again, you see the same ratio with abortion as with this other wicked depravity.

01:14:15.092 --> 01:14:17.612
<v SPEAKER_2>One-third of evangelicals say, yep, it's fine.

01:14:17.992 --> 01:14:19.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Two-thirds of mainline say, yeah, it's fine.

01:14:20.232 --> 01:14:21.572
<v SPEAKER_2>And Rome is even worse.

01:14:21.832 --> 01:14:25.592
<v SPEAKER_2>When it comes to sodomy, 70% of Roman Catholics say, go for it.

01:14:26.512 --> 01:14:28.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And only a quarter say, discourage it.

01:14:28.572 --> 01:14:29.572
<v SPEAKER_2>The rest are indifferent.

01:14:30.132 --> 01:14:33.032
<v SPEAKER_2>That's absolute moral catastrophe.

01:14:34.752 --> 01:14:39.392
<v SPEAKER_2>And when you look at sodomy unions, I'm not even going to call it marriage, because that's obscene.

01:14:39.632 --> 01:14:41.232
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not a marriage at all.

01:14:43.472 --> 01:14:47.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Over a quarter of evangelicals say, yeah, we should have gay marriage.

01:14:48.952 --> 01:14:50.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And only two-thirds are against it.

01:14:51.652 --> 01:14:55.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Mainline, it's nearly 60% or four and a third against.

01:14:55.512 --> 01:14:56.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Rome, identical.

01:14:57.652 --> 01:15:06.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, these are self-identified Christians, overwhelmingly in support of something that Obama, when he campaigned in 2008, was against.

01:15:06.472 --> 01:15:11.612
<v SPEAKER_2>This is something that's missing from a lot of the moral conversations we have in our churches today.

01:15:12.132 --> 01:15:19.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Just how quickly the world slid into complete wickedness in the church was in lockstep.

01:15:20.192 --> 01:15:21.152
<v SPEAKER_2>These are Christians.

01:15:22.472 --> 01:15:23.932
<v SPEAKER_2>We're in 2024 today.

01:15:24.152 --> 01:15:34.572
<v SPEAKER_2>In 2008, a presidential candidate, the most liberal candidate probably would ever run, when you look at the things that he viewed, he was publicly against it.

01:15:34.752 --> 01:15:37.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Now in private, of course, he was for it, because he himself is not.

01:15:40.452 --> 01:15:46.932
<v SPEAKER_2>The public acceptable view for the Democratic Party in 2008 was we had to condemn sodomite marriage.

01:15:48.112 --> 01:15:55.212
<v SPEAKER_2>And today, overwhelmingly, among Christians in America, it's seen as something we should accept and be for.

01:15:56.092 --> 01:15:57.872
<v SPEAKER_2>This is not Christianity.

01:15:58.472 --> 01:16:02.672
<v SPEAKER_2>When Corey and I talk about the new global religion, this is what we're talking about.

01:16:03.132 --> 01:16:04.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Because this is a moral question.

01:16:05.252 --> 01:16:08.372
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you permit abortion and sodomy and sodomite marriage?

01:16:08.672 --> 01:16:09.632
<v SPEAKER_2>Or do you forbid it?

01:16:09.932 --> 01:16:12.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you punish it to the full extent of the law?

01:16:13.812 --> 01:16:29.312
<v SPEAKER_2>The Bible says one thing, Christians have always said the same thing as the Bible until, in some cases, the last 50 or 60 years, in some cases, the last 16 years, where something that was so radical that a Democrat couldn't run for it in 2008.

01:16:29.472 --> 01:16:33.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Today, the majority of people in churches in this country say, yeah, go for it.

01:16:34.092 --> 01:16:36.592
<v SPEAKER_2>That is apostasy.

01:16:36.812 --> 01:16:38.832
<v SPEAKER_2>That is the complete abandonment of God.

01:16:39.192 --> 01:16:47.772
<v SPEAKER_2>I know these things aren't in the creeds they don't need to be because they're written on our hearts and they're everywhere in scripture, condemned in the strongest imaginable terms.

01:16:48.172 --> 01:16:51.192
<v SPEAKER_2>God could not have been any more clear when he condemns these things.

01:16:51.712 --> 01:16:55.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And Christians have always known it, and Christians still know it to this day.

01:16:55.632 --> 01:17:01.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Those who do not know it show themselves not to be Christian, whatever else they confess with their lips.

01:17:02.952 --> 01:17:08.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And the abortion numbers don't even capture how bad the reality actually is.

01:17:10.032 --> 01:17:14.812
<v SPEAKER_1>Because that question is about abortion specifically as a procedure.

01:17:15.292 --> 01:17:22.632
<v SPEAKER_1>It does not cover abortion in its totality, which would include hormonal birth control.

01:17:23.972 --> 01:17:27.412
<v SPEAKER_1>Because one of the ways that works is as an abortifacient.

01:17:28.052 --> 01:17:29.532
<v SPEAKER_1>That is one of the outcomes.

01:17:30.292 --> 01:17:34.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And what you morally risk, you are morally guilty of it.

01:17:35.632 --> 01:17:40.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the use of hormonal birth control is the sin of abortion.

01:17:41.512 --> 01:17:45.552
<v SPEAKER_1>That is what you are risking, and so that is what you have morally done.

01:17:47.332 --> 01:17:57.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And the percentages of supposed Christians who are going to support that, I guarantee you they are higher than those who say they support abortion, when you use that word.

01:17:59.552 --> 01:18:07.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And just for the record, for those who think that this is a relatively modern issue, the Church has always opposed abortion.

01:18:07.892 --> 01:18:11.792
<v SPEAKER_1>You can go back to sermons of the Church Fathers, and they talk about abortion.

01:18:11.812 --> 01:18:16.212
<v SPEAKER_1>John Chrysostom condemns abortion in some of his sermons.

01:18:16.432 --> 01:18:17.532
<v SPEAKER_1>This is not a new issue.

01:18:17.552 --> 01:18:20.372
<v SPEAKER_1>The Church has not changed positions on it.

01:18:21.132 --> 01:18:27.472
<v SPEAKER_1>This has always been the stance of the Church, that it is murder, that it is impermissible, that it is high-handed sin.

01:18:28.712 --> 01:18:36.532
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a violation of the Fifth Commandment, and it is subject to the penalty in Genesis 9-6.

01:18:39.052 --> 01:18:42.392
<v SPEAKER_2>The last question we wanted to mention from Pew is about evolution.

01:18:43.552 --> 01:18:54.752
<v SPEAKER_2>We did the entire 6000 years and counting episode dealing with the fact that the only possible Christian view is that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.

01:18:55.592 --> 01:18:58.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Whatever timeline you pick, it cannot possibly be any older than that.

01:19:01.052 --> 01:19:06.352
<v SPEAKER_2>To say otherwise is to directly and literally deny scripture.

01:19:06.992 --> 01:19:11.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Because, as we point out very simply in that episode, it could have been a three sentence episode.

01:19:12.392 --> 01:19:14.752
<v SPEAKER_2>The only way evolution works is death.

01:19:15.552 --> 01:19:18.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Death entered the world with Adam's sin.

01:19:19.172 --> 01:19:24.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Therefore, evolution and Adam's sin cannot both exist on the same timeline.

01:19:25.952 --> 01:19:28.692
<v SPEAKER_2>You either believe the Bible or you believe in evolution.

01:19:29.132 --> 01:19:34.152
<v SPEAKER_2>And so what we find in this question, they broke it down by natural evolution versus designed evolution.

01:19:34.172 --> 01:19:35.292
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

01:19:35.932 --> 01:19:38.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Or man always existed or I just don't know anything.

01:19:38.332 --> 01:19:39.712
<v SPEAKER_2>They're two different don't knows.

01:19:39.732 --> 01:19:43.712
<v SPEAKER_2>That's how messed up the survey data was.

01:19:44.352 --> 01:19:48.652
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm just going to give you the always existed because that's the only Christian answer in the list.

01:19:49.732 --> 01:19:56.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Evangelicals, the conservative Christians, 57% say the man has always existed in the current state.

01:19:56.852 --> 01:20:03.252
<v SPEAKER_2>That's 57% believe that Adam was the first man created in the perfect image of God.

01:20:03.672 --> 01:20:07.272
<v SPEAKER_2>57% just barely squeaking past half.

01:20:09.132 --> 01:20:11.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Main lines, the rainbow guys, 30%.

01:20:11.752 --> 01:20:13.232
<v SPEAKER_2>Rome, 29%.

01:20:13.852 --> 01:20:19.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Less than a third of the rainbow Papus coalition believe that Adam existed.

01:20:20.272 --> 01:20:22.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Now you tell me who can be a Christian in that state.

01:20:23.872 --> 01:20:27.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Seriously, how many times has Adam come up in the Bible?

01:20:27.152 --> 01:20:33.012
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not like Adam vanishes after the genealogy talking about what happened in the garden.

01:20:34.532 --> 01:20:38.232
<v SPEAKER_2>Adam is central as a character in the Bible.

01:20:38.432 --> 01:20:43.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Not because he's a fictional character, because he's our father, because we inherit his sin.

01:20:43.852 --> 01:20:53.112
<v SPEAKER_2>A specific real sin that happened on a certain day of the week, six, seven thousand years ago, when it happened, the universe fell, we fall because of it.

01:20:54.092 --> 01:20:55.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Every Christian must believe that.

01:20:56.152 --> 01:21:08.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, as we said in that episode, we're not saying you're going to go to hell if you disagree with us or even with scripture, because like we're pointing to scripture, it's got nothing to do with some podcast or things.

01:21:09.412 --> 01:21:14.192
<v SPEAKER_2>The only way that someone can have those beliefs is to deny scripture.

01:21:14.832 --> 01:21:20.612
<v SPEAKER_2>As I said in the intro, if you deny scripture, you're basically standing face to face with God and calling him a liar.

01:21:21.032 --> 01:21:22.132
<v SPEAKER_2>You're saying, this is crap.

01:21:22.592 --> 01:21:23.692
<v SPEAKER_2>You're just making up stories.

01:21:23.712 --> 01:21:24.672
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't believe any of this.

01:21:25.052 --> 01:21:29.512
<v SPEAKER_2>I have scientific evidence that tells me that you're wrong, that we evolved.

01:21:29.832 --> 01:21:31.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Obviously, that stuff is stupid.

01:21:31.812 --> 01:21:32.672
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not a rube.

01:21:33.212 --> 01:21:33.912
<v SPEAKER_2>I know better.

01:21:36.912 --> 01:21:40.932
<v SPEAKER_2>That's when this becomes a matter of salvation, and men can't answer the question.

01:21:41.212 --> 01:21:44.232
<v SPEAKER_2>All we can do and point is say, dude, you're calling God a liar.

01:21:44.632 --> 01:21:49.632
<v SPEAKER_2>You're taking the Lord's name in vain by saying, I'm a Christian, but I don't believe God.

01:21:49.652 --> 01:21:52.392
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the worst possible thing you could do.

01:21:52.772 --> 01:21:56.212
<v SPEAKER_2>At least just be an open enemy of God and not be a hypocrite on top of it.

01:21:56.852 --> 01:22:06.712
<v SPEAKER_2>But to take his name on you as a Christian and then to call him a liar when he tells you what he did, how he created you, it's as bad as it could possibly be.

01:22:07.512 --> 01:22:08.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Will he forgive it?

01:22:08.352 --> 01:22:08.992
<v SPEAKER_2>I hope so.

01:22:10.172 --> 01:22:12.192
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not declaring damnation on these things.

01:22:12.192 --> 01:22:20.932
<v SPEAKER_2>It's just scripture says one thing, and 70% of Roman Catholics and mainlines deny what's plainly in the Bible.

01:22:21.532 --> 01:22:23.172
<v SPEAKER_2>They deny that Adam ever existed.

01:22:24.272 --> 01:22:26.312
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a do not pass go situation.

01:22:28.252 --> 01:22:39.892
<v SPEAKER_1>So moving on now from the Pew data to the Ligonier data, the first question in those survey data was, God is a perfect being.

01:22:39.912 --> 01:22:42.832
<v SPEAKER_1>And this is not formulated as a question, the first statement.

01:22:43.432 --> 01:22:48.992
<v SPEAKER_1>And you agree, disagree either strongly or just plainly.

01:22:49.652 --> 01:22:52.472
<v SPEAKER_1>God is a perfect being and cannot make a mistake.

01:22:55.112 --> 01:23:02.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Obviously, as Christians, we have to strongly agree, because God is perfect.

01:23:03.552 --> 01:23:06.692
<v SPEAKER_1>This is just essentially the definition of what God is.

01:23:07.992 --> 01:23:13.132
<v SPEAKER_1>The idea that God could make a mistake is so wrong, it's practically incoherent.

01:23:14.272 --> 01:23:25.832
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet even for evangelicals, you get 8% who disagree with that statement, 3% who weren't sure, which isn't a great state of affairs either.

01:23:25.852 --> 01:23:27.592
<v SPEAKER_1>But this is a freebie.

01:23:28.772 --> 01:23:32.072
<v SPEAKER_1>This one should not be difficult for anyone to answer.

01:23:32.092 --> 01:23:35.312
<v SPEAKER_1>Anyone who claims to be Christian, this should be trivially easy.

01:23:36.372 --> 01:23:51.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet if you look at the totality of this survey data, which includes all of the claimed Christians who responded to these questions, to these statements, you have a full quarter who disagree with that statement.

01:23:53.952 --> 01:23:57.852
<v SPEAKER_1>One in four are saying, no, God's not perfect.

01:23:58.352 --> 01:23:59.452
<v SPEAKER_1>God can make a mistake.

01:24:01.292 --> 01:24:02.072
<v SPEAKER_1>That isn't God.

01:24:03.832 --> 01:24:10.972
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot believe that God makes mistakes and be a Christian, because that's not God.

01:24:11.972 --> 01:24:20.352
<v SPEAKER_1>The thing in which you have a belief is no longer God if you believe that thing makes mistakes, because God does not make mistakes.

01:24:22.952 --> 01:24:34.052
<v SPEAKER_1>The second statement, we won't go through all of the statements, but we'll go through some of the key ones, there is one true God in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

01:24:35.392 --> 01:24:42.312
<v SPEAKER_1>This again should probably bring to mind the creeds, since if you recite the creeds, this is again a freebie.

01:24:42.872 --> 01:24:46.772
<v SPEAKER_1>This is one all Christians should be able to get trivially easily.

01:24:47.972 --> 01:24:56.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And just for the sake of both brevity and because the data is displayed in kind of a funky way, we're going to focus on the evangelicals.

01:24:57.872 --> 01:25:07.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Because focusing on the evangelicals gives us sort of the cream of the crop when it comes to the Christians who give the right answers.

01:25:09.112 --> 01:25:15.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And so thankfully, with this one, 96% do agree with this statement.

01:25:16.752 --> 01:25:21.392
<v SPEAKER_1>But that means 4% do not strongly agree with a statement that is a freebie.

01:25:23.012 --> 01:25:29.972
<v SPEAKER_1>This is just one that any Christian should be able to say, of course, yes, this is just basic Christian doctrine.

01:25:31.312 --> 01:25:44.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet we have 4% of the best of the best Christians, as it were, the ones most likely to know Christian doctrine and give a correct response, 4% still get this one wrong.

01:25:46.412 --> 01:26:01.992
<v SPEAKER_2>And I strongly suspect that when Ligonier was doing this survey in cooperation with the company that they hired, that their set of evangelicals was probably closer to actual Orthodox Christian beliefs than would be found in the Pew data.

01:26:02.412 --> 01:26:07.492
<v SPEAKER_2>The list of denominations in the Pew data for evangelical was pretty broad.

01:26:08.032 --> 01:26:10.652
<v SPEAKER_2>So these data sets are not directly comparable.

01:26:10.672 --> 01:26:13.012
<v SPEAKER_2>As Corey just said, this is the very best case.

01:26:13.032 --> 01:26:16.892
<v SPEAKER_2>This is the steel man for the super conservative Christian.

01:26:17.352 --> 01:26:23.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And as we get into a few more of these down the road, the answers go off the rails, the statements themselves.

01:26:23.932 --> 01:26:28.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Only an orthodox Christian can have a single answer, and yet we see some really bad data.

01:26:29.332 --> 01:26:31.192
<v SPEAKER_2>So question two was the Trinity.

01:26:31.692 --> 01:26:34.892
<v SPEAKER_2>And thankfully 96% agree with the Trinity.

01:26:35.012 --> 01:26:35.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Good.

01:26:35.572 --> 01:26:36.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Table stakes for Christianity.

01:26:37.392 --> 01:26:45.372
<v SPEAKER_2>Yet the very next question, true or false, God accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

01:26:46.212 --> 01:26:52.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Only 32%, only one third of evangelicals disagree with that statement.

01:26:53.312 --> 01:26:56.372
<v SPEAKER_2>Only one third of evangelicals are not universalists.

01:26:57.472 --> 01:27:00.492
<v SPEAKER_2>So look, you have one question that says, do you deny the Trinity?

01:27:00.692 --> 01:27:02.512
<v SPEAKER_2>No, almost everyone gets that right.

01:27:02.932 --> 01:27:05.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you deny that the Trinity is necessary for salvation?

01:27:05.852 --> 01:27:06.952
<v SPEAKER_2>Two thirds get it wrong.

01:27:07.952 --> 01:27:09.232
<v SPEAKER_2>So that's what we're talking about.

01:27:09.252 --> 01:27:20.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Like even in this very best case, when we're steelmanning the cream of the crop of North American evangelical Christianity, two thirds of them give an answer that is functionally universalism.

01:27:21.272 --> 01:27:25.632
<v SPEAKER_2>God accept the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

01:27:25.792 --> 01:27:26.552
<v SPEAKER_2>That's inclusive.

01:27:26.952 --> 01:27:29.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Buddhism, Shintoism, you name it.

01:27:29.832 --> 01:27:32.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Pachamama, they're all there feeding at the same trough.

01:27:33.192 --> 01:27:34.532
<v SPEAKER_2>This is a universalist answer.

01:27:34.552 --> 01:27:37.212
<v SPEAKER_2>And two thirds say, yeah, that's me.

01:27:37.232 --> 01:27:39.292
<v SPEAKER_2>My Christianity is a universalist Christianity.

01:27:40.072 --> 01:27:40.992
<v SPEAKER_2>It's unconscionable.

01:27:41.952 --> 01:27:52.332
<v SPEAKER_2>And this goes back to Corey's earlier comment about teaching, about teachers versus wolves, about how this sort of confusion can exist inside congregations.

01:27:52.352 --> 01:27:58.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, if the only God that you ever hear about at church is a loving God, yeah, that would make sense.

01:27:58.432 --> 01:28:08.952
<v SPEAKER_2>If all I know is a God of love who loves everyone and he loves us so much and loves all the time every day, and enough of a love, love, love, when someone says, does God accept the worship of other people if they're trying?

01:28:09.192 --> 01:28:10.212
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, sure, of course.

01:28:10.612 --> 01:28:11.492
<v SPEAKER_2>He's a loving God.

01:28:11.512 --> 01:28:13.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Why would he reject the Muslims?

01:28:13.592 --> 01:28:16.092
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, they try to behave except when they're dealing with Christians.

01:28:16.952 --> 01:28:18.952
<v SPEAKER_2>They don't cheat, they don't drink, except when they do.

01:28:20.052 --> 01:28:25.392
<v SPEAKER_2>You can make all sorts of excuses as soon as you delete the Trinity and the basics of the Christian faith.

01:28:26.032 --> 01:28:31.712
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that's why we're drilling down on this day, is that when you look at the details, it swings wildly.

01:28:32.252 --> 01:28:39.132
<v SPEAKER_2>In one moment, these guys are saying that the Trinity is God, and the very next two-thirds of them deny that the Trinity is salvific.

01:28:40.592 --> 01:28:42.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Moving on to statement five.

01:28:43.732 --> 01:28:46.172
<v SPEAKER_1>This is again one that is a freebie.

01:28:47.092 --> 01:28:52.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Biblical accounts of the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus are completely accurate.

01:28:53.252 --> 01:28:55.252
<v SPEAKER_1>This event actually occurred.

01:28:57.232 --> 01:29:01.632
<v SPEAKER_1>For those playing along at home, this is kind of the core of the Christian faith.

01:29:03.332 --> 01:29:05.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, the creeds do include this.

01:29:06.732 --> 01:29:18.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Thankfully, if you limit the data to those who are evangelical in their affiliation and evangelical in their beliefs, 96% agree.

01:29:20.652 --> 01:29:23.092
<v SPEAKER_1>That's still 4% who aren't really sure.

01:29:23.672 --> 01:29:27.612
<v SPEAKER_1>3% somewhat agree, and 1% they're just not sure.

01:29:28.972 --> 01:29:30.992
<v SPEAKER_1>This again is the core of the Christian faith.

01:29:31.012 --> 01:29:35.312
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't possibly not believe this and still be a Christian.

01:29:36.012 --> 01:29:46.272
<v SPEAKER_1>This is literally, if someone asks you what the Gospel is and you want to give the shortest form of it, it's Christ crucified for sinners, and they're denying the import of that.

01:29:48.572 --> 01:29:58.892
<v SPEAKER_2>When you unfilter from just evangelicals and look at all of the Christian respondents, including evangelicals, you get only two-thirds, less than two-thirds, strongly agreeing.

01:30:00.112 --> 01:30:01.112
<v SPEAKER_2>That's completely insane.

01:30:01.132 --> 01:30:02.012
<v SPEAKER_2>That's one-third.

01:30:02.212 --> 01:30:03.872
<v SPEAKER_2>They cannot affirm over one-third.

01:30:03.892 --> 01:30:05.012
<v SPEAKER_2>Almost 40%.

01:30:05.232 --> 01:30:06.472
<v SPEAKER_2>It's closer to 40%.

01:30:06.852 --> 01:30:11.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Cannot affirm that the bodily resurrection of Jesus happened.

01:30:11.652 --> 01:30:12.312
<v SPEAKER_2>It's real.

01:30:12.432 --> 01:30:14.052
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a fact in history.

01:30:16.012 --> 01:30:17.092
<v SPEAKER_2>There's no Christians there.

01:30:17.352 --> 01:30:19.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Now again, that wasn't evangelicals.

01:30:19.052 --> 01:30:21.652
<v SPEAKER_2>That was every respondent who said, I'm any sort of Christian.

01:30:22.432 --> 01:30:24.212
<v SPEAKER_2>But that's what's happening in our churches.

01:30:24.572 --> 01:30:34.972
<v SPEAKER_2>When we talk about being concerned about the fruits of the teaching that we're seeing in various places, this is why I frequently say, if you tell me you're a Christian, it doesn't tell me anything.

01:30:35.112 --> 01:30:35.792
<v SPEAKER_2>This is why.

01:30:37.152 --> 01:30:38.632
<v SPEAKER_2>We've known about this data for years.

01:30:39.112 --> 01:30:50.292
<v SPEAKER_2>A lot of times Corey and I will say things that seem to be off the cuff, and they seem to be these darts, these very narrow, very hostile things that can't possibly be substantiated.

01:30:52.432 --> 01:30:56.452
<v SPEAKER_2>We're two of the only men you're likely to ever encounter that don't just run our mouths.

01:30:56.912 --> 01:30:58.992
<v SPEAKER_2>When we say something, we can back it up.

01:30:59.632 --> 01:31:06.212
<v SPEAKER_2>If you ask me the same question ten times to try to get me to reveal what I'm thinking, I can give you ten different answers.

01:31:06.672 --> 01:31:14.112
<v SPEAKER_2>Not because I'm changing my position, because if I think you can handle going deeper into it, I will give you more of what's going on.

01:31:14.592 --> 01:31:21.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And the deeper that you dig into why I said something bad to prove to you that it's really bad, the worse you're going to feel.

01:31:22.352 --> 01:31:24.472
<v SPEAKER_2>It's why I treat it as a progressive thing.

01:31:24.492 --> 01:31:28.612
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not going to just unload on you, because it would just completely blow people away.

01:31:29.632 --> 01:31:39.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Yet at the same time, it's entirely permissible for a man who knows for a fact, most people who say they're Christian, even the Evangelicals, when they accept the Trinity, they then confess Universalism.

01:31:40.332 --> 01:31:41.892
<v SPEAKER_2>We're in bad shape as a Church.

01:31:42.532 --> 01:31:52.292
<v SPEAKER_2>The Church, capital C, all believers, also has in the Church the denominations, a whole bunch of people who claim to be sheep, but they're actually goats.

01:31:53.072 --> 01:31:55.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's the immediate concern that we have here.

01:31:55.312 --> 01:31:56.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Because some of those goats are in our pulpits.

01:31:57.232 --> 01:31:59.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Some of our goats are in seminaries.

01:31:59.592 --> 01:32:02.732
<v SPEAKER_2>They're teaching men to go out and lie and deceive others.

01:32:03.512 --> 01:32:10.492
<v SPEAKER_2>And so when we make these seemingly flippant, harsh comments about most of these people aren't even Christians, well, here's the data backing it up.

01:32:10.772 --> 01:32:11.732
<v SPEAKER_2>I wish we were wrong.

01:32:12.092 --> 01:32:13.052
<v SPEAKER_2>I wish we were just jerks.

01:32:13.832 --> 01:32:21.132
<v SPEAKER_2>I would be a much happier person if I were just mean and ornery and didn't like anybody than if I was right about reality.

01:32:21.572 --> 01:32:22.552
<v SPEAKER_2>I wish that were the case.

01:32:22.772 --> 01:32:23.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Unfortunately, it's not.

01:32:24.912 --> 01:32:33.372
<v SPEAKER_2>The next question is, Corey and I kind of disagree about how bad the question is, but I want you to just listen to this.

01:32:33.392 --> 01:32:34.312
<v SPEAKER_2>This is a true or false.

01:32:34.792 --> 01:32:38.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God.

01:32:41.512 --> 01:32:49.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, when you filter by just evangelicals, the cream of the crop of the most conservatives, 70% strongly agree with that.

01:32:50.232 --> 01:32:53.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Less than 1 in 5 strongly disagree with this.

01:32:55.172 --> 01:33:00.112
<v SPEAKER_2>Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God, is literally the Aryan heresy.

01:33:00.832 --> 01:33:08.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And less than 1 in 5, less than 20% of the very best Christians in the United States are not Aryan heretics.

01:33:08.632 --> 01:33:19.532
<v SPEAKER_2>And Cory can give you his impression about how this is worded, but I think the table stakes there for me are that to say that anything is created by God is necessarily to say it's not God.

01:33:20.252 --> 01:33:31.712
<v SPEAKER_2>At the end of the episode that we did on Eastern Orthodoxy, we talked about the uncreated light and the weird stuff that they get into that's completely pagan, completely non-Christian.

01:33:32.372 --> 01:33:36.212
<v SPEAKER_2>There's no such thing as a creature that is God.

01:33:37.312 --> 01:33:38.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Jesus is eternal.

01:33:39.532 --> 01:33:43.112
<v SPEAKER_2>His body was something that was in creation.

01:33:43.552 --> 01:33:49.552
<v SPEAKER_2>But the second person of the Trinity is eternal and is co-eternal and co-equal with God the Father.

01:33:50.192 --> 01:34:00.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And so to say that Jesus was created by God, the problem, apart from the Aryan heresy from the 3rd, 4th century AD, is that Bonhoeffer and MLK could accede to this too.

01:34:00.692 --> 01:34:04.452
<v SPEAKER_2>This was MLK's teaching that Jesus was the greatest being created by God.

01:34:04.832 --> 01:34:11.732
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, first, you might have had to wiggle around a little bit, but greatest certainly, that was MLK and Bonhoeffer's teaching.

01:34:12.052 --> 01:34:12.992
<v SPEAKER_2>What wasn't it?

01:34:13.252 --> 01:34:14.112
<v SPEAKER_2>It wasn't Christian.

01:34:14.372 --> 01:34:16.552
<v SPEAKER_2>Because they thought he was just a great teacher, he was a great man.

01:34:16.972 --> 01:34:20.972
<v SPEAKER_2>He became one with God with his divine teaching.

01:34:21.912 --> 01:34:26.932
<v SPEAKER_2>When you start trying to make something that's not true sound really Christian, you can trick people.

01:34:27.292 --> 01:34:30.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Over 80% of evangelicals confess the Aryan heresy.

01:34:31.112 --> 01:34:32.092
<v SPEAKER_2>That's my read on it.

01:34:32.272 --> 01:34:34.112
<v SPEAKER_2>It's really bad no matter how you slice it.

01:34:34.712 --> 01:34:51.412
<v SPEAKER_1>I think that this question, perhaps more so than any other in these data, reveals the fundamental problem we have with teachers and pastors, which is to say that we have mostly inept ones.

01:34:52.492 --> 01:34:56.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Because this is something that immediately any Christian should recognize.

01:34:56.372 --> 01:34:57.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Oh, Aryan heresy.

01:34:57.512 --> 01:34:58.872
<v SPEAKER_1>You should know that immediately.

01:34:59.592 --> 01:35:03.772
<v SPEAKER_1>There should be no doubt in your mind that that is exactly what this question means.

01:35:04.392 --> 01:35:08.372
<v SPEAKER_1>That is what is being asked here, because of the word created.

01:35:09.152 --> 01:35:21.052
<v SPEAKER_1>But I think when you take this statement together with the next one, statement 7, it reveals the major failure here is a failure of teaching, because the questions are related, 6 and 7.

01:35:21.592 --> 01:35:25.632
<v SPEAKER_1>They more or less ask the same thing, approaching it from different angles.

01:35:27.012 --> 01:35:34.372
<v SPEAKER_1>But more Christians, who responded to this survey, get 7 correct than get 6 correct.

01:35:35.452 --> 01:35:39.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And so it seems like some don't understand the import of the word created.

01:35:41.112 --> 01:35:43.972
<v SPEAKER_1>That is a major problem with regard to teaching.

01:35:45.252 --> 01:35:52.112
<v SPEAKER_1>We confess in the creeds that we believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker or Creator of heaven and earth.

01:35:54.032 --> 01:36:01.112
<v SPEAKER_1>It is kind of incumbent on us to understand what created means if we are confessing a belief in the Creator.

01:36:02.292 --> 01:36:07.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet it seems like many Christians responding to this don't know what it means to create.

01:36:08.852 --> 01:36:14.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And to contrast this, we can see with statement 7, Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.

01:36:15.612 --> 01:36:23.272
<v SPEAKER_1>A significant percentage, strong, not 100%, which is a problem, but a significant percentage strongly disagree.

01:36:23.292 --> 01:36:25.392
<v SPEAKER_1>The numbers shift from the last question.

01:36:25.912 --> 01:36:30.852
<v SPEAKER_1>About 60% strongly disagree with that, if you're limiting it to the evangelicals again.

01:36:31.892 --> 01:36:33.372
<v SPEAKER_1>This should be 100%.

01:36:34.352 --> 01:36:37.052
<v SPEAKER_1>We confess that Jesus Christ is God.

01:36:38.072 --> 01:36:42.532
<v SPEAKER_1>We also confess he's a great teacher, but we can clearly answer this.

01:36:42.552 --> 01:36:43.372
<v SPEAKER_1>This is a freebie.

01:36:43.632 --> 01:36:45.672
<v SPEAKER_1>If it says he was not God, well, that's wrong.

01:36:45.692 --> 01:36:48.992
<v SPEAKER_1>That's very clearly against the core of the Christian faith.

01:36:50.532 --> 01:37:02.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet, the best of the best of Christians, the most serious of Christians, the Bible-believing Christians, still get this wrong by more than a third.

01:37:04.552 --> 01:37:08.092
<v SPEAKER_1>So it's better than the last statement, certainly, but it's still abysmal.

01:37:10.452 --> 01:37:17.612
<v SPEAKER_1>This really highlights just how bad the state of teaching is in our churches.

01:37:19.372 --> 01:37:21.492
<v SPEAKER_1>These are basics of the Christian faith.

01:37:21.512 --> 01:37:23.892
<v SPEAKER_1>These aren't even difficult questions.

01:37:23.912 --> 01:37:30.292
<v SPEAKER_1>These aren't things you need to attend a class or a seminar or something advanced in order to understand.

01:37:30.872 --> 01:37:33.932
<v SPEAKER_1>This is something you should know just from attending this service.

01:37:35.332 --> 01:37:39.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet a significant percentage of Christians get these wrong.

01:37:41.752 --> 01:37:52.032
<v SPEAKER_1>We have some very real problems when it comes to teaching in our churches, when it comes to what those who are claiming to be Christian actually know about the faith.

01:37:52.052 --> 01:37:56.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Because as we stated before, part of the Christian faith is knowledge.

01:37:57.892 --> 01:37:59.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, it's faith, but faith in what?

01:38:01.332 --> 01:38:06.772
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to know the thing, the knowledge, the information, the facts in which you have that faith.

01:38:09.132 --> 01:38:10.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And many Christians clearly don't.

01:38:12.652 --> 01:38:18.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Statement 11 is, the Holy Spirit can tell me to do something which is forbidden in the Bible.

01:38:18.952 --> 01:38:37.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And I think the way they phrased some of these questions was good and it was maybe clever, but maybe in some cases too clever by half because while they're clearly right and wrong answers, it's hard to tell which side of the horse the people who got the wrong answer fell off of.

01:38:37.972 --> 01:38:41.632
<v SPEAKER_2>So the Holy Spirit can tell me to do something the Bible says I can do.

01:38:42.312 --> 01:38:44.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Two-thirds of evangelicals strongly disagree with that.

01:38:44.812 --> 01:38:45.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Two-thirds got it right.

01:38:46.412 --> 01:38:48.392
<v SPEAKER_2>But one-third strongly agree.

01:38:48.572 --> 01:38:50.172
<v SPEAKER_2>And there's almost no middle ground.

01:38:50.792 --> 01:39:02.732
<v SPEAKER_2>And honestly, I think what might have happened here is that the 25% who said that the Holy Spirit can tell me to do something forbidden in the Bible, maybe they're thinking that there's, like this is me being charitable.

01:39:02.752 --> 01:39:07.452
<v SPEAKER_2>This is me trying to sugarcoat and make, to baptize this as a Christian answer.

01:39:07.932 --> 01:39:11.152
<v SPEAKER_2>I think maybe they thought, I know that the Holy Ghost is God.

01:39:11.412 --> 01:39:19.072
<v SPEAKER_2>If the Holy Ghost tells me to do something, I have to do it because I'm obeying God, which correctly confesses the nature of the Holy Ghost.

01:39:19.592 --> 01:39:26.252
<v SPEAKER_2>But it fails to confess the nature of Scripture because Scripture is breathed out by the Holy Ghost, which is breathed out by God.

01:39:26.732 --> 01:39:29.032
<v SPEAKER_2>And so God does not contradict himself.

01:39:29.612 --> 01:39:38.352
<v SPEAKER_2>So the Holy Ghost can't, not because God can't do something, because God's omnipotent, it's because God does not disagree with himself.

01:39:39.272 --> 01:39:41.692
<v SPEAKER_2>God is not a house divided against itself.

01:39:42.112 --> 01:39:43.752
<v SPEAKER_2>The Trinity is not a war.

01:39:44.452 --> 01:39:50.712
<v SPEAKER_2>When we try to describe the three persons of the Trinity, it exceeds the limits of human reason.

01:39:51.312 --> 01:40:04.892
<v SPEAKER_2>And so I hope that in some cases, when the folks, the 25%, the quarter, who said, the Holy Spirit can tell me to do something that is forbidden in the Bible, I hope that they were trying to obey God and just misconstruing what scripture is.

01:40:05.352 --> 01:40:06.672
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the nice version.

01:40:07.112 --> 01:40:13.332
<v SPEAKER_2>The bad version is that over a third of people think that somehow God is set against himself.

01:40:13.772 --> 01:40:18.612
<v SPEAKER_2>It's scary no matter what, but the best case is what Corey was just saying about teaching.

01:40:19.092 --> 01:40:22.552
<v SPEAKER_2>The worst case is that some people are in a really horrible state.

01:40:22.792 --> 01:40:23.972
<v SPEAKER_2>In a state of confusion.

01:40:24.352 --> 01:40:35.152
<v SPEAKER_2>Because like it's a question that you could sort of puzzle a little bit, but the error is going to reveal which, like if you get it wrong, you're going to still be committing one of a couple of possible errors.

01:40:35.292 --> 01:40:37.032
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's what we don't see in the answers.

01:40:37.772 --> 01:40:50.312
<v SPEAKER_1>I would actually like to examine the thinking of some of the respondents with regard to this statement, statement 11 and statement 9, because fully a third of evangelicals said that the Holy Spirit is not a person.

01:40:52.812 --> 01:41:01.412
<v SPEAKER_1>So I don't know how this possibly reconciles in the mind of those who get really either one of these wrong or both of them wrong.

01:41:02.792 --> 01:41:13.992
<v SPEAKER_1>But the incorrect answers with regard to statement 9 almost makes one want to say we should recite the Athanasian Creed every single Sunday until that number drops to zero.

01:41:14.452 --> 01:41:14.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:41:14.732 --> 01:41:16.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, I think it's because of the way it was phrased.

01:41:16.512 --> 01:41:19.092
<v SPEAKER_2>The Holy Spirit is a force, but not a personal being.

01:41:19.632 --> 01:41:21.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And people don't know what persons are.

01:41:21.372 --> 01:41:22.152
<v SPEAKER_1>It's teaching again.

01:41:22.392 --> 01:41:22.612
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:41:22.632 --> 01:41:23.732
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a technical term.

01:41:23.752 --> 01:41:27.972
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a term of art that is not typically used in modern discourse.

01:41:28.252 --> 01:41:30.232
<v SPEAKER_2>People don't talk to each other this way.

01:41:30.752 --> 01:41:32.992
<v SPEAKER_2>I think the Holy Spirit is a force, but not a personal being.

01:41:33.252 --> 01:41:39.552
<v SPEAKER_2>There's clearly a right answer, but I think it probably just confused me because like you said, like they've never heard the Athanasian Creed.

01:41:39.572 --> 01:41:41.172
<v SPEAKER_2>They didn't recite it often.

01:41:41.792 --> 01:41:42.612
<v SPEAKER_2>They've never been taught.

01:41:43.152 --> 01:41:47.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Like here are the limits of what people can say about the inner workings of God.

01:41:47.392 --> 01:41:48.392
<v SPEAKER_2>They're very narrow.

01:41:48.672 --> 01:41:49.312
<v SPEAKER_2>It's God.

01:41:49.772 --> 01:41:52.652
<v SPEAKER_2>It's God revealing himself bits and pieces of himself.

01:41:52.672 --> 01:42:05.312
<v SPEAKER_2>When I say pieces, I mean that God can be subdivided, but like when God tells us something and then he tells us something else, both about himself, even when they're contradictory, we have to confess them all and just say, okay, you're God.

01:42:05.692 --> 01:42:07.092
<v SPEAKER_2>I can't make any sense of it.

01:42:07.352 --> 01:42:08.692
<v SPEAKER_2>And that makes sense because I'm a creature.

01:42:10.372 --> 01:42:12.512
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm a hairless, mostly hairless mammal.

01:42:12.912 --> 01:42:19.532
<v SPEAKER_2>You've made me to worship you, and I'm just going to do the best I can and fall on your mercy if I screw something up.

01:42:20.312 --> 01:42:25.352
<v SPEAKER_2>I think that's the generous, constructive case for when we get these things wrong.

01:42:25.552 --> 01:42:26.612
<v SPEAKER_2>And God is a loving God.

01:42:26.632 --> 01:42:29.212
<v SPEAKER_2>When I said that earlier, clearly it was a mocker.

01:42:29.232 --> 01:42:33.152
<v SPEAKER_2>We did an entire episode on specifically the errors that are lurking there.

01:42:33.892 --> 01:42:45.452
<v SPEAKER_2>But it's important because when you get these sorts of things wrong, when you can't defend the faith as it's revealed in scripture, and these kind of seemingly fiddly details, other stuff is going to happen downstream.

01:42:45.472 --> 01:42:46.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Other errors are going to creep in.

01:42:46.592 --> 01:42:46.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Why?

01:42:47.272 --> 01:42:48.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Because all error comes from Satan.

01:42:49.412 --> 01:42:53.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Satan uses the smallest error to sneak in and then he builds on it.

01:42:53.792 --> 01:42:59.352
<v SPEAKER_2>It's like if you get water in a foundation in your house, like water, a little bit of water, what's the big deal?

01:42:59.372 --> 01:43:06.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, water with a freeze-thaw cycle, suddenly after a few seasons, your foundation is split apart.

01:43:07.272 --> 01:43:11.192
<v SPEAKER_2>A few drops of water that comes seeping in can fracture concrete.

01:43:11.912 --> 01:43:13.372
<v SPEAKER_2>Satan does the same thing with error.

01:43:13.612 --> 01:43:14.732
<v SPEAKER_2>He's very good at this.

01:43:14.752 --> 01:43:16.092
<v SPEAKER_2>He's been doing it from the beginning.

01:43:16.332 --> 01:43:19.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Look at the error he crept into the garden with, with Adam and Eve.

01:43:20.392 --> 01:43:21.192
<v SPEAKER_2>He'll do it to us.

01:43:21.792 --> 01:43:28.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And when we have these things about the inner workings of the Trinity, that the most intelligent man can only confess.

01:43:28.452 --> 01:43:29.432
<v SPEAKER_2>He can't understand.

01:43:29.812 --> 01:43:33.152
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not like if you get smart enough, you can fit God in your head.

01:43:33.732 --> 01:43:36.352
<v SPEAKER_2>To do that would make you God, would you mean you're a longer creature?

01:43:36.372 --> 01:43:37.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Going back to the earlier question.

01:43:38.652 --> 01:43:43.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Statements 12 and 13 are more or less the same question.

01:43:43.952 --> 01:43:45.052
<v SPEAKER_1>They're very closely related.

01:43:45.332 --> 01:43:47.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And the percentages are almost identical.

01:43:47.152 --> 01:43:50.072
<v SPEAKER_1>So I will read both and then we can go over them together.

01:43:51.132 --> 01:43:54.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Everyone sins a little, but most people are good by nature.

01:43:56.792 --> 01:43:59.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Even the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation.

01:44:02.752 --> 01:44:05.252
<v SPEAKER_1>About 40% disagree.

01:44:08.932 --> 01:44:12.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, this is a core part of the Christian faith.

01:44:13.592 --> 01:44:15.472
<v SPEAKER_1>This is asking about original sin.

01:44:17.112 --> 01:44:21.972
<v SPEAKER_1>In the case of statement 12, most people are good by nature.

01:44:21.992 --> 01:44:24.032
<v SPEAKER_1>It's sort of tangentially getting at it there.

01:44:24.612 --> 01:44:27.172
<v SPEAKER_1>But even the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation.

01:44:28.992 --> 01:44:32.032
<v SPEAKER_1>This is basic teaching about the nature of sin.

01:44:34.272 --> 01:44:37.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Any sin incurs an infinite debt.

01:44:38.012 --> 01:44:45.152
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is why, of course, the death of Christ, which is of infinite value, was necessary to pay for sin.

01:44:46.192 --> 01:44:49.512
<v SPEAKER_1>It covers all sins, because of course, infinite value.

01:44:50.372 --> 01:44:55.972
<v SPEAKER_1>But any sin creates an infinite divide between man and creator.

01:44:57.212 --> 01:44:59.712
<v SPEAKER_1>This is basic teaching of the Christian faith.

01:45:00.152 --> 01:45:03.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And 40% disagree.

01:45:04.112 --> 01:45:05.232
<v SPEAKER_1>6% aren't sure.

01:45:05.712 --> 01:45:06.572
<v SPEAKER_1>Not great either.

01:45:09.332 --> 01:45:12.832
<v SPEAKER_1>This is a condemnation of the state of teaching in our churches.

01:45:13.312 --> 01:45:18.752
<v SPEAKER_1>The basics of the faith like this are more or less a coin toss.

01:45:19.312 --> 01:45:20.512
<v SPEAKER_1>Basically 50-50.

01:45:21.072 --> 01:45:22.512
<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe they'll get it right, maybe they won't.

01:45:23.432 --> 01:45:27.252
<v SPEAKER_1>You would practically get the same response if people were guessing.

01:45:29.272 --> 01:45:31.772
<v SPEAKER_1>And these are the, again, the best of the best.

01:45:31.952 --> 01:45:36.732
<v SPEAKER_1>These are the Christians who are the most serious about their faith, the most serious about the Bible.

01:45:38.232 --> 01:45:43.012
<v SPEAKER_1>The numbers are much worse if you look at the total response.

01:45:45.252 --> 01:45:50.172
<v SPEAKER_2>Statement 15 continues on on the subject of, they don't directly say it, but original sin.

01:45:50.652 --> 01:45:53.572
<v SPEAKER_2>The statement is, everyone is born innocent in the eyes of God.

01:45:54.272 --> 01:45:59.532
<v SPEAKER_2>And here, two-thirds of the Cremacrop of conservative Christians deny original sin.

01:46:00.032 --> 01:46:04.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Two-thirds agree that everyone is born innocent in the eyes of God.

01:46:04.812 --> 01:46:05.972
<v SPEAKER_2>They deny original sin.

01:46:06.292 --> 01:46:08.152
<v SPEAKER_2>They deny that we inherit Adam's sin.

01:46:08.492 --> 01:46:15.512
<v SPEAKER_2>That is a foundational, absolutely crucial part of the Christian faith.

01:46:16.412 --> 01:46:20.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And one that's missing from a lot of churches, I remember a couple of years ago, Tucker laughed.

01:46:20.852 --> 01:46:23.092
<v SPEAKER_2>He was disgusted by the idea of original sin.

01:46:23.272 --> 01:46:29.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Somehow it came up and he was really offended that someone had said something about babies being evil.

01:46:29.552 --> 01:46:33.752
<v SPEAKER_2>Because you look at a baby and it seems cute and poopy and crying and not hurting anybody.

01:46:33.992 --> 01:46:34.852
<v SPEAKER_2>How can it be sinning?

01:46:35.352 --> 01:46:42.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, if you just look, if you use your reason, if you use your common sense, yeah, common sense says the babies aren't sinful.

01:46:42.952 --> 01:46:44.072
<v SPEAKER_2>At least not for a while.

01:46:45.192 --> 01:46:47.112
<v SPEAKER_2>But scripture says otherwise.

01:46:47.892 --> 01:46:53.072
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's why all the questions had to do with the nature of scripture and whether it's the word of God.

01:46:53.092 --> 01:46:55.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And all these are a moving machinery.

01:46:56.452 --> 01:46:57.952
<v SPEAKER_2>They're the machinery of faith.

01:46:58.172 --> 01:46:59.432
<v SPEAKER_2>They're interlocking parts.

01:46:59.912 --> 01:47:06.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And when we set one aside or we break it, we bend it somehow, it's going to cause all these other things to break downstream.

01:47:06.792 --> 01:47:11.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Which is how you get people just flat out, two-thirds of evangelicals denying original sin.

01:47:12.552 --> 01:47:15.612
<v SPEAKER_2>And the next one, I think, probably kind of explains some of that.

01:47:16.192 --> 01:47:23.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Statement 16, the Bible, like all sacred writings, which by itself I would have to strongly disagree.

01:47:23.412 --> 01:47:25.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe that's why some people strongly disagree.

01:47:25.732 --> 01:47:36.692
<v SPEAKER_2>As someone who is actually literate, I would have disagreed on the basis that the Bible, like all sacred writings, right there I can't agree, contains helpful account of ancient myths, but is not literally true.

01:47:38.272 --> 01:47:43.432
<v SPEAKER_2>A quarter of the respondents, a quarter of the evangelicals agree that the Bible is not literally true.

01:47:43.712 --> 01:47:46.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's consistent with the Pew Day that we had earlier.

01:47:47.752 --> 01:47:53.292
<v SPEAKER_2>What's hilarious when you get to Statement 17, the Bible is 100% accurate in all that it teaches.

01:47:53.932 --> 01:47:55.252
<v SPEAKER_2>90% agree with that.

01:47:58.052 --> 01:48:04.392
<v SPEAKER_2>How can a quarter of people say it's not literally true and then 90% of those same people say it's 100% accurate?

01:48:05.192 --> 01:48:11.192
<v SPEAKER_2>I think maybe that gets into the middle ground of the notion of human reason and common sense.

01:48:11.932 --> 01:48:28.212
<v SPEAKER_2>Even if scripture isn't inspired by God, if it's a lot of really wise teachings that have been passed down by really wise men and we've edited it and we've winnowed it down and it's been improved on over time, maybe it can be human or originated wisdom.

01:48:28.632 --> 01:48:33.492
<v SPEAKER_2>I think that's the only possible conclusion when a quarter of people deny that scripture is scripture.

01:48:34.572 --> 01:48:42.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Some of these answers are extremely schizophrenic and statement 18 continues that trend in a particularly noteworthy way.

01:48:43.572 --> 01:48:45.692
<v SPEAKER_1>Modern science disproves the Bible.

01:48:46.212 --> 01:48:54.252
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we have those who say that it's accurate and that it's true, but it's not, but science disproves it.

01:48:54.972 --> 01:49:03.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And a full 30% of evangelicals say that modern science disproves the Bible.

01:49:04.312 --> 01:49:06.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Seven percent, well, they're not sure.

01:49:07.432 --> 01:49:15.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, this is approaching coin toss territory on something that is an easy answer for any Christian.

01:49:16.332 --> 01:49:18.092
<v SPEAKER_1>Can science disprove the Bible?

01:49:18.352 --> 01:49:18.612
<v SPEAKER_1>No.

01:49:19.032 --> 01:49:21.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And so obviously science does not disprove the Bible.

01:49:22.092 --> 01:49:23.292
<v SPEAKER_1>The Bible is true.

01:49:25.212 --> 01:49:34.052
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, as Woe mentioned earlier, we do not believe the Bible because we go through it with a red pen or a highlighter or whatever.

01:49:34.072 --> 01:49:39.912
<v SPEAKER_1>We mark up all the little bits and pieces and we make sure that they all agree perfectly with everything we know about the world.

01:49:40.292 --> 01:49:41.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Some of you have already noticed the problem.

01:49:43.112 --> 01:49:46.052
<v SPEAKER_1>We believe the Bible because it's the Word of God.

01:49:47.052 --> 01:49:49.232
<v SPEAKER_1>So everything it says is true.

01:49:50.292 --> 01:49:55.052
<v SPEAKER_1>If we think that some part is in error, we are the ones in error.

01:49:56.292 --> 01:50:01.392
<v SPEAKER_1>In fact, that has happened a number of times, particularly with regard to archaeology.

01:50:02.652 --> 01:50:08.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Because historically there would be those who claim, oh, there was no battle that happened here, or that place didn't exist, and then we found it.

01:50:10.212 --> 01:50:14.592
<v SPEAKER_1>There were archaeologists who claimed that certain Egyptian cities didn't exist, and then we found them.

01:50:15.992 --> 01:50:20.952
<v SPEAKER_1>The Bible is true with regard to everything it says because it is the Word of God.

01:50:21.672 --> 01:50:24.052
<v SPEAKER_1>That is an easy answer for any Christian.

01:50:24.912 --> 01:50:30.672
<v SPEAKER_1>It is something that every teacher of the Christian faith should be teaching in unambiguous terms.

01:50:31.692 --> 01:50:40.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet we have 30% of evangelical Christians responding that science can disprove the Bible and has disproved the Bible.

01:50:40.772 --> 01:50:43.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Not even that it just can, it has disproved the Bible.

01:50:45.472 --> 01:50:54.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Another particularly wild example of the schizophrenic nature of some of these answers is that an earlier statement that we skipped past was, we skipped it because it was spot on.

01:50:55.232 --> 01:50:57.432
<v SPEAKER_2>The question is, God created male and female.

01:50:57.852 --> 01:51:00.212
<v SPEAKER_2>It was like 98% said, yeah, absolutely, that's correct.

01:51:00.412 --> 01:51:01.432
<v SPEAKER_2>It's quoting the Bible.

01:51:01.912 --> 01:51:05.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And yet, statement 27, gender identity is a matter of choice.

01:51:06.632 --> 01:51:12.892
<v SPEAKER_2>A third of the people who said male and female, he created them, affirm the gender identity is a matter of choice.

01:51:13.132 --> 01:51:15.252
<v SPEAKER_2>They deny male and female, he created them.

01:51:15.532 --> 01:51:18.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, is it gender that confused them versus sex?

01:51:18.572 --> 01:51:20.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it identity versus reality?

01:51:21.292 --> 01:51:23.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Whatever it is, it's blasphemous.

01:51:23.652 --> 01:51:26.372
<v SPEAKER_2>They're straight up denying how God creates people.

01:51:27.052 --> 01:51:31.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And this is, again, this is the very most conservative Christians pretty much on the planet.

01:51:31.712 --> 01:51:37.212
<v SPEAKER_2>You're not going to find more conservative Christians than you find in the conservative church bodies in the United States.

01:51:37.512 --> 01:51:44.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe equal, not saying we are superlative, but I don't think that our best is beaten by anyone because it's just Christianity.

01:51:44.432 --> 01:51:48.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, it's not like you can level up, it's just how much of the Bible do you believe?

01:51:48.912 --> 01:51:54.072
<v SPEAKER_2>These people who say they believe the whole Bible, a third of them say the gender identity is a matter of choice.

01:51:54.092 --> 01:51:55.492
<v SPEAKER_2>That's catastrophic.

01:51:56.312 --> 01:52:02.532
<v SPEAKER_1>And then they go on from there, statement 28, the Bible's condemnation of homosexual behavior doesn't apply today.

01:52:03.712 --> 01:52:06.292
<v SPEAKER_1>28% agree.

01:52:08.252 --> 01:52:09.372
<v SPEAKER_1>Which is the wrong answer.

01:52:11.272 --> 01:52:27.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Of course, we know why so many disagree with this, which is to say disagree with what the Bible teaches on homosexuality, teaches about sodomy, because you have so many false teachers, so many wolves out there, attempting to explain away those verses, oh, no, no, no, it's fine today.

01:52:27.932 --> 01:52:30.432
<v SPEAKER_1>We can legalize this and decriminalize that.

01:52:31.652 --> 01:52:33.052
<v SPEAKER_1>Scripture is abundantly clear.

01:52:33.912 --> 01:52:43.412
<v SPEAKER_1>There is no ambiguity in any of those narratives, in any of those prohibitions, and they are not just in one place or two places, they are throughout Scripture.

01:52:45.212 --> 01:52:49.912
<v SPEAKER_1>Homosexuality, sodomy, is condemned in the strongest of terms.

01:52:49.932 --> 01:52:51.052
<v SPEAKER_1>It is an abomination.

01:52:51.612 --> 01:52:54.692
<v SPEAKER_1>It is condemned in the strongest of terms in Scripture.

01:52:56.832 --> 01:53:09.912
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet, the best of the best, when it comes to Christians, 28% think that those prohibitions, they don't apply today, because we are so enlightened today, we've moved beyond these things.

01:53:12.012 --> 01:53:19.852
<v SPEAKER_1>The same Christians who will affirm that they believe Scripture, then deny that it applies.

01:53:21.892 --> 01:53:28.332
<v SPEAKER_2>On the subject of affirming Scripture, the statement 30, the Bible has the authority to tell us what we must do.

01:53:29.052 --> 01:53:30.692
<v SPEAKER_2>85% strongly agree.

01:53:30.732 --> 01:53:33.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, that's pretty good, but it should be 100.

01:53:34.272 --> 01:53:38.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Up here where we're talking about the evangelical vanguard, how is it not 100?

01:53:39.232 --> 01:53:41.612
<v SPEAKER_2>The Bible has the authority to tell us what we must do.

01:53:41.712 --> 01:53:46.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, when you look at the next question, it becomes a little more clear or more confusing.

01:53:47.172 --> 01:53:50.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Statement 31 says, religious belief is a matter of personal opinion.

01:53:51.232 --> 01:53:53.132
<v SPEAKER_2>It is not about objective truth.

01:53:54.412 --> 01:53:59.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And just over half disagree with that.

01:54:01.432 --> 01:54:05.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Just over half disagree that religion is not objective.

01:54:06.252 --> 01:54:12.192
<v SPEAKER_2>So yeah, it makes sense that only 85% would say the Bible has the authority to tell us what to do.

01:54:12.212 --> 01:54:13.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Like the numbers don't add up.

01:54:14.212 --> 01:54:15.812
<v SPEAKER_2>It's confusing as you're listening.

01:54:16.032 --> 01:54:19.932
<v SPEAKER_2>It's no less confusing when you're looking at the data and looking at these charts.

01:54:21.292 --> 01:54:30.872
<v SPEAKER_2>It goes from almost everyone saying that the Bible tells us what we must do to almost a coin toss about whether or not religion is objectively true.

01:54:34.312 --> 01:54:39.292
<v SPEAKER_1>So we'll close out with statement 32 from these survey data.

01:54:40.212 --> 01:54:42.832
<v SPEAKER_1>The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.

01:54:44.052 --> 01:54:47.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Among evangelicals, 100% agree.

01:54:47.872 --> 01:54:51.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Now it's only 99% who strongly agree.

01:54:51.532 --> 01:54:53.192
<v SPEAKER_1>1% they just agree.

01:54:54.932 --> 01:55:04.392
<v SPEAKER_1>But that's still good because we have 100% who agree the Bible is the highest authority for what they believe, which is exactly what Christians should say.

01:55:06.292 --> 01:55:09.172
<v SPEAKER_1>The Bible is not the only authority.

01:55:09.572 --> 01:55:10.632
<v SPEAKER_1>We've never said that.

01:55:10.632 --> 01:55:16.392
<v SPEAKER_1>We never will say that because God does reveal truth in other ways.

01:55:17.112 --> 01:55:21.472
<v SPEAKER_1>There is truth in nature because God is the God of nature.

01:55:22.372 --> 01:55:29.992
<v SPEAKER_1>But when the Bible speaks on those topics on which Scripture has something to say, it is final.

01:55:31.172 --> 01:55:32.452
<v SPEAKER_1>There is nothing in nature.

01:55:33.012 --> 01:55:34.392
<v SPEAKER_1>There is nothing in science.

01:55:34.512 --> 01:55:36.032
<v SPEAKER_1>There is nothing in philosophy.

01:55:36.472 --> 01:55:47.792
<v SPEAKER_1>There is nothing true upon which the mind of man can alight, can grasp, can discern, can divine that will disagree with Scripture.

01:55:48.672 --> 01:55:52.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Because Scripture, when and where it speaks, is absolutely true.

01:55:53.452 --> 01:55:57.452
<v SPEAKER_1>And so, yes, it is the highest authority for what we should believe.

01:55:59.432 --> 01:56:02.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And so, thankfully, this one is a hundred percent.

01:56:05.312 --> 01:56:07.492
<v SPEAKER_1>But very obviously, we have some work to do.

01:56:09.052 --> 01:56:20.792
<v SPEAKER_1>When looking at the actual questions with regard to the teachings of Scripture, it is very clear that many of those who claim to be Christian do not agree with Scripture.

01:56:21.332 --> 01:56:27.372
<v SPEAKER_1>They say that the Bible is the highest authority for what they believe, and then they don't believe what the Bible teaches.

01:56:28.812 --> 01:56:34.312
<v SPEAKER_1>In many cases, undoubtedly, this is the result of false teachers, of wolves.

01:56:34.472 --> 01:56:37.272
<v SPEAKER_1>In some cases, just of particularly inept teachers.

01:56:37.292 --> 01:56:38.152
<v SPEAKER_1>There are also those.

01:56:38.572 --> 01:56:39.652
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not always malice.

01:56:39.772 --> 01:56:41.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Sometimes it's just stupidity.

01:56:42.232 --> 01:56:47.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Although if you're a stupid teacher, you're sinning by being in that position and you need to resign.

01:56:49.832 --> 01:56:51.632
<v SPEAKER_1>But obviously, there is a lot of work to be done.

01:56:52.772 --> 01:57:04.972
<v SPEAKER_1>We have a lot of our fellows, a lot of our neighbors, a lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ who may be sitting next to us in the pews who do not know what it actually means to be a Christian.

01:57:06.012 --> 01:57:09.292
<v SPEAKER_1>They don't know the content of the Christian faith.

01:57:09.892 --> 01:57:10.752
<v SPEAKER_1>They know Jesus.

01:57:12.472 --> 01:57:22.032
<v SPEAKER_1>They know the cross to some degree, although some of the questions raise some issues with the understanding of what the cross means, what it represents, why it is important.

01:57:24.032 --> 01:57:25.132
<v SPEAKER_1>They know some things.

01:57:25.152 --> 01:57:32.412
<v SPEAKER_1>They have this nebulous understanding of what it means to be a Christian, but they do not know the concrete aspects of it.

01:57:32.432 --> 01:57:34.412
<v SPEAKER_1>They do not know the facts as it were.

01:57:35.352 --> 01:57:39.332
<v SPEAKER_1>They don't know the truth of the Christian faith, the content of Scripture.

01:57:40.672 --> 01:57:42.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is what we need to be teaching.

01:57:44.272 --> 01:57:49.912
<v SPEAKER_1>We need more good Christian men in our congregations teaching these truths.

01:57:50.712 --> 01:57:54.652
<v SPEAKER_1>We need men in their homes teaching these things to their wives and children.

01:57:55.792 --> 01:57:58.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Headship comes with responsibilities.

01:57:59.172 --> 01:58:09.572
<v SPEAKER_1>If you are a father, if you are a husband, you are in a position of headship, and it is incumbent on you to see that these things are taught correctly in your house.

01:58:11.192 --> 01:58:31.312
<v SPEAKER_1>If you hold a position of authority in your church, it is incumbent on you to see that these things are taught correctly in your church, and that includes for those men in the congregations who have positions of authority, it is incumbent on you to ensure that your pastor teaches correctly, and to remove him if he does not.

01:58:33.172 --> 01:58:37.472
<v SPEAKER_1>If, of course, he does not respond to correction, you should attempt to correct him first.

01:58:39.232 --> 01:58:42.272
<v SPEAKER_1>That is one of the duties of Christian men.

01:58:44.712 --> 01:58:45.752
<v SPEAKER_1>These numbers are bad.

01:58:46.672 --> 01:58:48.912
<v SPEAKER_1>We've made that point repeatedly.

01:58:49.632 --> 01:58:50.892
<v SPEAKER_1>We aren't going to sugarcoat it.

01:58:51.392 --> 01:58:53.312
<v SPEAKER_1>We aren't going to say, well, it could be worse.

01:58:54.472 --> 01:58:56.092
<v SPEAKER_1>No, these numbers are catastrophic.

01:58:56.872 --> 01:58:57.932
<v SPEAKER_1>These numbers are awful.

01:58:59.312 --> 01:59:05.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Basics of the Christian faith are coming down to effectively a coin toss as to whether or not someone gets it right.

01:59:07.032 --> 01:59:10.332
<v SPEAKER_1>That should not be the state of affairs in any church.

01:59:10.972 --> 01:59:19.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It should most certainly not be the state of affairs in the most conservative, traditional, Bible-believing churches, at least as they claim.

01:59:19.932 --> 01:59:22.432
<v SPEAKER_1>100% say the Bible is the highest authority.

01:59:24.352 --> 01:59:25.772
<v SPEAKER_1>There is a lot of work to be done.

01:59:26.112 --> 01:59:27.632
<v SPEAKER_1>And I'll say that another time.

01:59:28.572 --> 01:59:31.132
<v SPEAKER_1>There is a lot of work to be done.

01:59:32.692 --> 01:59:36.132
<v SPEAKER_1>We shouldn't take that as cause for despair.

01:59:37.312 --> 01:59:38.872
<v SPEAKER_1>We should view that as an opportunity.

01:59:40.112 --> 01:59:44.312
<v SPEAKER_1>God has given us the opportunity to correct these things.

01:59:45.992 --> 01:59:50.412
<v SPEAKER_1>If you have the talents to teach, you should use those talents to teach.

01:59:51.772 --> 01:59:57.492
<v SPEAKER_1>If you have the position, of course, of headship, it is incumbent on you to do so, and so you don't really have a choice then.

01:59:57.892 --> 01:59:59.372
<v SPEAKER_1>You can enlist the help of others.

02:00:00.252 --> 02:00:08.432
<v SPEAKER_1>God has put talented men in positions where they can exercise those talents, where they can use those talents to teach the faith.

02:00:10.272 --> 02:00:23.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Part of this undoubtedly is going to be removing false teachers, removing wolves, because we have many of them in our churches, and unfortunately, we have many of them in our pulpits.

02:00:25.632 --> 02:00:35.132
<v SPEAKER_1>If we are going to restore actual Christianity, which includes, of course, foundationally, right belief.

02:00:36.152 --> 02:00:37.792
<v SPEAKER_1>In the Basics of the Christian Faith.

02:00:40.152 --> 02:00:44.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We are going to need more faithful men, and we are going to need to remove the faithless ones.

02:00:45.832 --> 02:01:00.872
<v SPEAKER_1>As mentioned earlier, and a number of times, one of the ways that you can start to work on addressing these problems in, hopefully not in your home, but perhaps in your home, perhaps in your congregation, use the creeds.

02:01:02.312 --> 02:01:09.592
<v SPEAKER_1>They are a gift from God to the Church, because they are just re-statements of what Scripture says.

02:01:10.372 --> 02:01:15.912
<v SPEAKER_1>They address ancient heresies, which some of these questions were just ancient heresies rephrased.

02:01:16.912 --> 02:01:21.632
<v SPEAKER_1>And they address many of the problems with regard to knowledge of the Christian faith.

02:01:24.052 --> 02:01:37.172
<v SPEAKER_1>If every individual responding to this survey knew and believed just what the creeds say, this would have been a fundamentally different podcast episode, because these would be fundamentally different survey data.

02:01:39.352 --> 02:01:43.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Virtually every one of these is addressed in the creeds.

02:01:43.932 --> 02:01:46.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, some of the social issues so-called or not.

02:01:46.612 --> 02:01:58.332
<v SPEAKER_1>The creeds don't address abortion, but the Fifth Commandment certainly does, if you actually teach the reality of what abortion is, including birth control, hormonal birth control, chemical birth control.

02:02:00.472 --> 02:02:03.092
<v SPEAKER_1>And so, as Christians, we need to look at the state of the churches.

02:02:04.392 --> 02:02:09.312
<v SPEAKER_1>We need to look at the state of our fellow believers, some of whom are in name only.

02:02:10.352 --> 02:02:11.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And we need to care for them.

02:02:12.492 --> 02:02:13.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We need to care for the churches.

02:02:14.312 --> 02:02:15.552
<v SPEAKER_1>We need to care for our neighbor.

02:02:17.592 --> 02:02:20.832
<v SPEAKER_1>These are not issues that we can just sweep under the rug and ignore.

02:02:21.612 --> 02:02:25.612
<v SPEAKER_1>These are matters of salvation in many cases.

02:02:26.152 --> 02:02:30.032
<v SPEAKER_1>Not every one of these, as we've said, is going to damn you if you get it wrong.

02:02:30.472 --> 02:02:31.372
<v SPEAKER_1>But some of them will.

02:02:32.652 --> 02:02:38.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And the goal isn't to find that line and just barely squeak by, just barely not fall off the cliff.

02:02:39.232 --> 02:02:40.932
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not what we want for ourselves.

02:02:41.272 --> 02:02:43.192
<v SPEAKER_1>It's certainly not what we want for our families.

02:02:43.512 --> 02:02:46.952
<v SPEAKER_1>It is not what we should want for those sitting in the pews next to us.

02:02:48.412 --> 02:02:52.932
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we need to ensure that the basics of the Christian faith are taught.

02:02:53.992 --> 02:02:57.432
<v SPEAKER_1>How can you move on to the more advanced parts of the faith?

02:02:57.752 --> 02:03:03.092
<v SPEAKER_1>How can you move on to the difficult questions if you can't even stomach spiritual milk?

02:03:04.712 --> 02:03:11.692
<v SPEAKER_1>If you can't even answer that the Holy Spirit is a person, that God is triune?

02:03:12.912 --> 02:03:26.912
<v SPEAKER_1>If you can't answer the very most basic parts of the Christian faith, how can you expect not only to move on and understand the more complex parts of the Christian faith, perhaps the more subtle parts of the Christian faith?

02:03:27.232 --> 02:03:29.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Those are a gift from God to understand those things.

02:03:29.692 --> 02:03:33.992
<v SPEAKER_1>It's the fullness of the faith, and you want to mature, you want to move from milk to meat.

02:03:34.712 --> 02:03:45.732
<v SPEAKER_1>But if you can't even digest the milk, if you can't understand the basics, not only are you limiting yourself and those under your care, but how are you going to share the faith?

02:03:47.372 --> 02:03:48.892
<v SPEAKER_1>How will you respond to questions?

02:03:48.912 --> 02:04:13.092
<v SPEAKER_1>If you can't even state the basics of what it means to be a Christian, of the content of the Christian faith, you can't respond to questions from those who are wondering about the Christian faith, who perhaps have an interest in the Christian faith, or those attacking the Christian faith, or if your children come to you with a question, or someone else in your congregation.

02:04:14.912 --> 02:04:17.012
<v SPEAKER_1>These are not trivial matters.

02:04:18.252 --> 02:04:21.392
<v SPEAKER_1>These are matters of the utmost importance.

02:04:22.372 --> 02:04:24.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Because again, it is that tripartite division.

02:04:25.152 --> 02:04:28.132
<v SPEAKER_1>It is notitia, assensus and fiducia.

02:04:28.872 --> 02:04:30.312
<v SPEAKER_1>Fiducia is what saves you.

02:04:31.652 --> 02:04:39.592
<v SPEAKER_1>But you can't have that without the foundation, because you can't believe in that which you don't know is true.

02:04:40.572 --> 02:04:46.732
<v SPEAKER_1>And you can't, you certainly can't believe that something is true if you don't even know what it is.

02:04:47.652 --> 02:04:54.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if you don't know the content of the Christian faith, notitia, you can't assent to the fact that it is true, a census.

02:04:55.072 --> 02:04:58.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And so then you can't have faith in that fiducia.

02:04:59.232 --> 02:05:03.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, faith is a gift from God, but it is faith in something.

02:05:04.392 --> 02:05:08.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And he has given us his word in order to teach the truth of the Christian faith.

02:05:09.932 --> 02:05:21.272
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if we're going to say, as it seems like the evangelical respondents do, the Bible is the highest authority for what I believe, we need to know what the Bible actually teaches.

02:05:21.292 --> 02:05:35.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Because just holding up a book and saying, I believe this, doesn't mean anything if you've never opened it, if you've opened it once, if you don't read it, if you don't know what it contains, if you don't know what it teaches.

02:05:37.112 --> 02:05:45.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we need to know what the Christian faith is, what the tenets of the Christian faith are, what the contents of Scripture are.

02:05:46.852 --> 02:05:47.952
<v SPEAKER_1>It's the Word of God.

02:05:49.612 --> 02:05:54.692
<v SPEAKER_1>As has been said many times in the past by many Christians, prayer is us talking to God.

02:05:55.572 --> 02:05:57.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Scripture is God talking to us.

02:05:58.992 --> 02:06:00.372
<v SPEAKER_1>We should take that seriously.

02:06:01.352 --> 02:06:17.492
<v SPEAKER_1>God wrote us an entire book via the hands of many men over many centuries in order to tell us what he has done, what he is going to do, what he wants from us, what he wants us to do, what he wants us not to do.

02:06:18.552 --> 02:06:21.092
<v SPEAKER_1>So much is contained in the pages of Scripture.

02:06:22.072 --> 02:06:29.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet it seems like many of our fellows, and again many teachers and pastors, are ignoring this treasure.

02:06:31.052 --> 02:06:31.972
<v SPEAKER_1>That needs to change.