Transcript: Episode 0086

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<v SPEAKER_1>Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I am Corey J.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Mahler.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And I'm still, whoa.

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<v SPEAKER_2>On today's Stone Choir, we're going to begin, what will probably be a two, possibly three-part series on the Image of God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Before we get into the subject, just a few minutes of housekeeping.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If you're listening to this later on, you can skip out probably five or eight minutes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Just want to catch up for a minute on some things that are unrelated to the subject.

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<v SPEAKER_2>First, apologize for the last couple of weeks of not being able to deliver an episode on time.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Turned out that I had COVID.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I didn't get tests.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I've never been tested.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But the last time we were going to try to record that morning, my eggs didn't taste like anything.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that's when I finally realized that the preceding two weeks of completely random symptoms that would be TMI were basically amounted to what was probably some sort of low-grade COVID affection.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Like I was never particularly sick.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I was just miserable.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But for a podcast, on the days that we intended to record, I couldn't sit still for three hours.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I couldn't think and I couldn't speak.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I lost my voice on one of the days.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And podcasting is not a difficult thing to do, but you have to be able to do all three of those things at the same time.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So today is the first day in three weeks that that's actually been possible.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So I'm very sorry that we didn't have those episodes out.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We try to do it every week.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And we'll probably take a few weeks off in December, I think, again, like we did last year.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That was a nice break, but it wasn't a break.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I was stressed out the entire time of failing to deliver.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Part of that is that this kind of is our job in a sense.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You know, there are a lot of people who have donated some on an ongoing basis, and that means a great deal.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it also means that I want to make sure I'm not ripping you off.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I want to make sure that we deliver consistently.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so I apologize for failing because I feel bad about it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So I keep talking about it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But at the same time, had we tried to record, it would have been awful, and it wouldn't have deserved to be in the library.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So given the choice between doing something poorly and not doing it at all, we're not going to do it at all.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I thank you for your patience.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There's plenty of episodes in the back catalog.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I think this is about episode 85, roughly.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And incidentally, this weekend will be the two-year anniversary of Stone Choir.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So there's a lot of episodes in the library, if you can go back to listen to, in a week where we're not able to deliver.

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<v SPEAKER_2>On the subject of donations, the reason I wanted to actually mention that is not about us, but about North Carolina and Florida, and the areas that were damaged by the storm, Eastern Tennessee as well.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Those areas are, particularly in the Appalachians, our places are pretty well despised by everybody in the country, including our churches.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There are very few church bodies that pay any attention to those people when things are good.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the Western North Carolina thing, in particular, meant something to me, because that's where my mom's family's from.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Going back over 300 years, when I went on a road trip before I moved to where I am now, I actually went and visited the family plot in Ashe County, just north of where all that stuff happened.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So like, that's where my family's from for centuries.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so that makes it personal in a way that wouldn't be personal to most of you, because your family's not from there.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that's natural.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So I mentioned that not to say, you should care more about my thing than your thing.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And we have quite a few listeners in Florida who have been hammered by the storms.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the one difference, not necessarily in terms of suffering, but in terms of surprise, is that people in Florida along the coast are used to getting inundated.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's kind of one of the things that happens on the Gulf Coast.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Where this happened in the Appalachians, they don't get floods like that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The last flood was a hundred years ago, and the flood markers for this one were like six feet higher.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There was a deluge, and we still don't know the body count.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's easily thousands.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's probably the worst natural disaster in US history.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know if we'll ever get the final tally, because so many of those people were so poor before that happened, that who even cares?

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the reason I'm mentioning it in the terms of donations is that I've seen a number of church bodies, and particularly our own LCMS, very actively soliciting donations for storm relief.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So I was curious, how do they account for that?

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<v SPEAKER_2>And when I did, I just clicked on the donate link that they've been spamming pretty much daily since the storms began.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And I found that the donations are going to a $7.7 million mission budget that has 34 full-time employees.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So probably at least half of that budget that they have allocated in donations that are coming in is being consumed by people sitting in offices in St.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Louis.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Your church body, your NGO that you're sending your tithes to, probably pretty similar.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So I would implore anyone who wants to help with flood relief, A, please continue to pray for those people, and please continue to donate and support.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Almost none of those people in the Appalachians will have had any flood insurance, because why would they?

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<v SPEAKER_2>They were above floodplains, which means they didn't have much to begin with, and they've lost literally everything, except in some cases the clothes on their back, and some of their lives, those who survived.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do not, please do not give to an NGO.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Please give to an organization that was actually boots on the ground, helping the individuals who needed help.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Now, there are some churches that have been donating directly to congregations in the area.

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<v SPEAKER_2>God bless them.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's perfect.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If your church body has church congregations on the ground, they're going to be helping their neighbors.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They're going to be helping their kin.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They're going to be supporting the people that need the help the most.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Don't give your money to anything centralized, because there's no guarantee it's going to get to the people that you're trying to help.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So if you do want to help with a donation, please don't just assuage your conscience by writing a check to some national organization, because you trust their reputation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Give it to somebody who's on the ground actually helping people.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In the show notes, we'll put a couple links.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Ones to the AP.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Hill Foundation, others to the Cajun Navy, Samaritan's Purse is another that's been on the ground.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm sure there are flaws someone could find with each of those organizations.

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<v SPEAKER_2>What I can tell you from guys who are on the ground who are friends of mine, all three of these were directly helping people in their moment of need.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They're putting their butts in the way, in harm's way.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They were giving their own money.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In a number of these cases, the guys were paying out of pocket and then asking for donations to cover tens of thousands of dollars that they had already given.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so, if you wish to give, please give to someone like that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>These are just ideas, but they're examples of find somebody who's actually there, who's actually impacted.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And this should be the case wherever there's anything for relief.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Don't give money to the Red Cross.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Don't give it to the United Way.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Those places are evil.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They exist to do evil.

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<v SPEAKER_2>These NGOs exist to take our money and not give it to the people who need it the most.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Everyone's been complaining about FEMA, but the big organizations fail almost as hard.

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<v SPEAKER_2>On the subject of that relief, please consider when your churches are considering sending money overseas for missions or whatever.

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<v SPEAKER_2>How much are you doing for your neighbor?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Are you gonna send thousands to some other country when your own countrymen, in some cases, maybe not very far away from where you are, are in far worse conditions of suffering and loss than even people who live in the third world, like Western North Carolina, Eastern Tennessee, are very much the third world right now.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There are still places that have no food.

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<v SPEAKER_2>As of a couple days ago, there were still contacting people who hadn't been contacted since Hurricane Helene hit.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's how out of touch those people are.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's how little they're cared for.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the rescue operations were suspended a week ago, except for these guys who are on the ground.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So, you know, we talk a lot about neighbors and about love and about properly ordered affection.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This is where the rubber meets the road.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Whom do you love the most?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Is it your neighbor?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Is it your kin?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Is it those nearby?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Or is it those who are further away?

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<v SPEAKER_2>We've all, at least you're on social media.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Many times you've seen that heat map.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This is the heat map.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You may not have North Carolina, the western part of it, as close to your heart as me because they're not related to you.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And that's fine.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not binding anyone's conscience here.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm just saying, however little you think of the Appalachians, they should be closer to you than someone 6,000 miles away.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And if that's not the case for you, for your church, and for your church body, figure out why it is and maybe do something about that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And do it sooner than later, because the people who actually need help are people who, you know, they need shelter, they need food.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Winter is a real thing in the hills.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It gets cold up there.

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<v SPEAKER_2>People are going to freeze soon.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Like heat is a major concern.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They're going to need ongoing support, which is why I mentioned donations, even though the storm was a couple of weeks ago.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So that's my status update.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's the catch up with recent news.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The reason that we talk about these various subjects in the hypothetical is that when these moments occur, you shouldn't have to think about it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It should just be obvious.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm going to take care of someone in America before I take care of someone far away.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That should be natural.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it shouldn't upset anyone to hear that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But when the moment comes, you have to realize that that's actually the case.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Don't send your money far away while there are people nearby who need help.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And maybe there's someone closer to you than the areas that are reflected by floods.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Help them first.

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<v SPEAKER_2>God bless you.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do that.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Think about it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Don't just assuage your guilt by writing a check to an NGO saying, I've done my part.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That money is going to be embezzled in most cases.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's going to be wasted even when it's not stolen.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It rarely is going to get where it needs to go.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So if you actually want to help people, we'll put a couple links.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do your own research.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Find others.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Find anyone who's actually been on the ground helping those people because that's what we should do.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We should take care of each other when we're in need.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Whoever's in need.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You will someday be in need, and you're going to pray to God that somebody shows up to help you and hope that someone would speak on your behalf when you're not able to.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I guess that's not a direct segue into this week's episode, but in next week when we're talking about the image of God, as it relates to the sanctified life, that will be on point.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But even for today's episode, as we're talking about what is the image of God, we're going to lay out some definitional stuff.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Some of this is going to be pretty heavily philosophical.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Corey's going to take the lead on that, and I'm going to try to dumb it down for people, so in the end, we can all understand it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But the principal goal is that the discussion of the image of God, which has become so predominant in 21st century discourse, is not the way the church has historically taught.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We'll talk about, I think, that more next week.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Today, we're going to lay the groundwork for what is is, and then we'll talk about some of the practical applications later.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But absolutely, one of the practical applications is that it is true.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Every person suffering from the hurricane, anyone suffering anywhere, they were created in the image of God, and that should matter to us.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's not a leftist talking point.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That is, in fact, Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The discussion for next week is, to what extent is that emphasis actually being made anti-Christian by what they're excluding?

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<v SPEAKER_2>So after we lay the groundwork for what it is, we can talk about what it isn't, because the reason we're talking about the image of God is that when most people talk about it, they're actually mounting an assault on the image of God, as is always the case.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They're wearing something Christian as a skin suit and using it to maneuver freely within Christian spaces so that they can do damage.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But if we don't even know what it means, we're just going to adopt their frame and assume, yes, this all sounds great.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Imago Dei, that sounds super Christian.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You're saying something in Latin, that's got to be really old.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I got to agree with you.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Once we get through with this episode this week, it's going to be clear that, yeah, what they're talking about is not really what's in Scripture.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not really what is meant by God's words.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And when we look at the specific passages where God does talk about the image of God, it's all stuff that they hate.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's stuff about man versus woman.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's stuff about the death penalty.

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<v SPEAKER_2>All the things that the people screaming Imago Dei deny is where God actually focuses his attention.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So this couple weeks is going to hopefully give you the tools to understand it is an important concept.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not important the way those who are portraying it are actually making it out to be.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So to start off this episode, we have to go over a number of definitions.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Because when you're dealing with something like this, it is vitally important to understand the terms that are involved and the senses or sense perhaps in some of these cases, in which those terms are being used.

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<v SPEAKER_1>This is one of those areas that is particularly dangerous because those who employ the term imago dei, as Woe was saying, typically in modern times, they're using it to deceive you or mislead you.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And they're going to do this.

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<v SPEAKER_1>One of the primary ways they're going to do this is by conflating things that are not supposed to be conflated, things that are in fact distinct and should remain so.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so it's again vitally important to understand what terms are being used and how they are being used.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And that is with regard both to scripture and to theology or philosophy.

00:14:24.372 --> 00:14:30.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Because as Woe said, there is philosophy in this, that is involved in this discussion.

00:14:30.892 --> 00:14:42.292
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's involved in this discussion not just because men have taken the things of God and subjected them to human wisdom and human reason, but because philosophy is also a part of scripture.

00:14:43.492 --> 00:14:48.252
<v SPEAKER_1>This is something perhaps that some modern Christians forget.

00:14:48.252 --> 00:14:51.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Some of the books in scripture are called wisdom literature.

00:14:51.712 --> 00:14:55.512
<v SPEAKER_1>There is philosophy in the Word of God.

00:14:55.512 --> 00:15:00.812
<v SPEAKER_1>Philosophy is not some pagan or just human pursuit.

00:15:00.812 --> 00:15:07.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Philosophy is the love of wisdom, and the pursuit of wisdom is something that God commends, something that God blesses.

00:15:09.652 --> 00:15:20.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the terms we will be using, some of the primary terms here, are image, icon, idol, and symbol.

00:15:20.052 --> 00:15:26.372
<v SPEAKER_1>It is important to know what these terms mean and how they are distinct one from another.

00:15:26.372 --> 00:15:36.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, to start off, I want to note that image and icon, as we are using them here, and in fact, as they are used in scripture, I'll come back to that in a minute, are the same.

00:15:38.892 --> 00:15:44.772
<v SPEAKER_1>In modern English and in some other languages as well, obviously, we can distinguish an image and an icon.

00:15:44.772 --> 00:15:50.392
<v SPEAKER_1>They are not necessarily the exact same thing as we use the terms.

00:15:50.392 --> 00:15:56.012
<v SPEAKER_1>But as they are used in scripture, and as we are using them in this episode, they are the same.

00:15:57.332 --> 00:16:04.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And part of how you can see that with regard to scripture is that they're actually the same word in Greek.

00:16:04.392 --> 00:16:05.192
<v SPEAKER_1>They're both icon.

00:16:05.732 --> 00:16:09.192
<v SPEAKER_1>Conveniently, icon, it's the same word as English.

00:16:09.192 --> 00:16:12.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Spelled differently, but pronounced essentially the same.

00:16:12.952 --> 00:16:15.172
<v SPEAKER_1>So that one's fairly easy to remember.

00:16:16.192 --> 00:16:21.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, what an icon is, what icon means, we'll start there.

00:16:21.832 --> 00:16:27.532
<v SPEAKER_1>It comes from the Proto-Indo-European root, which means to be like.

00:16:27.532 --> 00:16:37.152
<v SPEAKER_1>So an icon or an image, and we can use those interchangeably, are things that are like some other thing.

00:16:37.152 --> 00:16:42.132
<v SPEAKER_1>They're not the thing itself, but they are like that thing.

00:16:42.132 --> 00:16:53.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And so this is one of the ways in which man is an image of God, because in certain ways, we will get into in this episode and following ones, man is like God.

00:16:53.572 --> 00:16:57.992
<v SPEAKER_1>And so man is an image of God, in that he is like God.

00:16:59.712 --> 00:17:09.992
<v SPEAKER_1>An idol is something fundamentally different, and the word in Greek is idolon, which quite frankly is close enough to idol that probably easy to remember as well.

00:17:11.892 --> 00:17:22.792
<v SPEAKER_1>An idol, unlike an image, particularly with regard to scripture, and particularly Christian philosophy and theology certainly, is a false god.

00:17:22.792 --> 00:17:29.692
<v SPEAKER_1>It is something that is set up in the place of god, in the place of the rightful worship of god.

00:17:29.692 --> 00:17:34.592
<v SPEAKER_1>It is something that is elevated to a status above where it should be.

00:17:36.152 --> 00:17:45.292
<v SPEAKER_1>There's some irony here that we miss when we simply read these words and don't understand the etymology, what they mean historically.

00:17:45.292 --> 00:17:52.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And so for this one, the pi root, the etymology of this, comes from to see.

00:17:52.072 --> 00:18:00.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, it may not be immediately obvious how there is a little bit of polemic there in how scripture treats idols.

00:18:00.392 --> 00:18:12.292
<v SPEAKER_1>But if you think about it, one of the refrains in scripture about idols is they have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, etc.

00:18:12.292 --> 00:18:15.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We all know those verses, those sections of scripture.

00:18:15.692 --> 00:18:23.772
<v SPEAKER_1>And so calling something an idol and having that root of to see, there's a polemic there.

00:18:23.772 --> 00:18:27.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Because an idol ultimately is something that cannot see.

00:18:27.892 --> 00:18:29.412
<v SPEAKER_1>It does not see.

00:18:29.412 --> 00:18:31.512
<v SPEAKER_1>It is deaf and mute.

00:18:31.512 --> 00:18:33.392
<v SPEAKER_1>It is not a real thing.

00:18:33.392 --> 00:18:34.752
<v SPEAKER_1>It is false.

00:18:35.952 --> 00:18:44.772
<v SPEAKER_1>And so you have that built-in insult with regard to what an idol is and what it more importantly perhaps is not.

00:18:46.232 --> 00:18:56.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And so again, an idol unlike an image is related to that false worship, related to false religion, related to false gods.

00:18:56.072 --> 00:18:59.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And we will get into that with regard to the commandments as well.

00:18:59.572 --> 00:19:05.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Because it's vitally important to pay attention to which words are actually there in scripture.

00:19:05.112 --> 00:19:09.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And that means which words are there in the Greek.

00:19:09.332 --> 00:19:14.052
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, a faithful English translation is going to have the correct words in English as well.

00:19:14.212 --> 00:19:20.232
<v SPEAKER_1>Because, for instance, we have the word image, and we also have the word icon in English.

00:19:20.232 --> 00:19:27.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if you consistently translate icon in the Greek into image in English, that's completely fine.

00:19:27.692 --> 00:19:38.512
<v SPEAKER_1>You are going to understand the meaning, and you're going to understand how it's used in the various parts of scripture where it appears, as long as the English translation is consistent in that.

00:19:38.512 --> 00:19:41.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And quite frankly, most of them are, thankfully.

00:19:41.652 --> 00:19:46.272
<v SPEAKER_1>The ESV, at least, which was the one I was primarily using when looking at these verses.

00:19:47.852 --> 00:19:53.932
<v SPEAKER_1>The third most important term in this area is, of course, symbol.

00:19:55.492 --> 00:20:06.592
<v SPEAKER_1>Unlike the other terms, symbol is going to be where we get into a little bit more philosophy, just sort of necessarily because symbols inherently are philosophical.

00:20:07.912 --> 00:20:17.552
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't understand them without an appeal to really psychology and metaphysics and a handful of other things, but certainly philosophy.

00:20:17.552 --> 00:20:24.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Because you have to explain what a symbol is and what a symbol does, and why it does that.

00:20:24.152 --> 00:20:28.072
<v SPEAKER_1>We are not going to delve deeply into semiotics, the study of symbols.

00:20:28.072 --> 00:20:30.332
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not the point of the episode.

00:20:30.332 --> 00:20:31.852
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not the point of the podcast.

00:20:31.852 --> 00:20:33.232
<v SPEAKER_1>We're not a philosophy podcast.

00:20:33.992 --> 00:20:44.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And neither Woe nor I thinks that particular field is really that interesting, because it could probably be summed up in a single seminar.

00:20:44.892 --> 00:20:50.992
<v SPEAKER_1>But the information that would be in that seminar is vitally important.

00:20:50.992 --> 00:21:04.672
<v SPEAKER_1>There are some things about symbols that you have to understand in order to recognize when they are being used, how they are being used, and what you should take away from that use.

00:21:06.952 --> 00:21:25.772
<v SPEAKER_1>One of the core concepts you have to understand about symbols is that what a symbol does, and this is going to seem almost like a sin to English speakers, so I'm going to word this, but I will go ahead and explain it after I word it.

00:21:25.772 --> 00:21:27.472
<v SPEAKER_1>A symbol symbolizes something.

00:21:28.092 --> 00:22:05.372
<v SPEAKER_1>I know English, we don't like to repeat the same word or the same word family a number of times in a sentence, which is something we should try to tamp down, because scripture does that frequently, and this is sort of a tangent, it's an aside, but English translations of scripture will sometimes use a bunch of different words that roughly mean the same thing, a bunch of synonyms where the underlying Greek uses the same word, because that's something you can do in Greek, you can do it in many other languages as well, you can do it in German, but English, we like to have that variety.

00:22:06.392 --> 00:22:11.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Sometimes it's helpful to use the same word because it emphasizes what is being said.

00:22:12.592 --> 00:22:18.172
<v SPEAKER_1>If you have a verb and a noun and an adjective, they're all the same word, just different forms of it.

00:22:18.172 --> 00:22:22.972
<v SPEAKER_1>It's emphasis, which is something you miss if you use a bunch of different words.

00:22:24.052 --> 00:22:30.072
<v SPEAKER_1>But what I mean by a symbol symbolizing something, is that it stands for that other thing.

00:22:30.072 --> 00:22:36.712
<v SPEAKER_1>It refers to it in an abstract way, which is another aspect of this that's important.

00:22:36.712 --> 00:22:44.732
<v SPEAKER_1>We're basically dealing with an increasing level of abstractness when going from image to idle to symbol.

00:22:44.732 --> 00:22:46.752
<v SPEAKER_1>Symbol is the most abstract.

00:22:48.672 --> 00:23:01.292
<v SPEAKER_1>We can look at this in sort of a concrete fashion helpfully, with regard to what we all widely recognize as an image in the colloquial use of the term, the most common use of the term in English.

00:23:01.292 --> 00:23:03.252
<v SPEAKER_1>An image is a picture.

00:23:03.252 --> 00:23:10.332
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not the thing itself, but it is a representation of the thing that is not abstract.

00:23:10.332 --> 00:23:11.832
<v SPEAKER_1>It's concrete.

00:23:11.832 --> 00:23:15.692
<v SPEAKER_1>If I take a picture of a glass, it's a picture of a glass.

00:23:16.292 --> 00:23:18.352
<v SPEAKER_1>There's no abstraction there.

00:23:18.352 --> 00:23:20.252
<v SPEAKER_1>There's no symbolism there.

00:23:20.252 --> 00:23:28.332
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't have to really think through any number of steps to come to the conclusion of what the thing is because it simply is what it is.

00:23:28.332 --> 00:23:31.572
<v SPEAKER_1>The picture is not a glass, but it is of a glass.

00:23:31.572 --> 00:23:34.372
<v SPEAKER_1>It is an image of a glass.

00:23:34.372 --> 00:23:38.792
<v SPEAKER_1>With a symbol, you're not dealing with something that's simple.

00:23:38.792 --> 00:23:46.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And so for instance, to give a straightforward example, the cross is a symbol.

00:23:46.212 --> 00:23:49.452
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a symbol of the Christian faith.

00:23:50.472 --> 00:23:59.672
<v SPEAKER_1>But you have to know that, which is an important point I'll return to in a minute here, more than a minute, but soon.

00:23:59.672 --> 00:24:03.252
<v SPEAKER_1>A cross represents the Christian faith.

00:24:03.252 --> 00:24:05.252
<v SPEAKER_1>It symbolizes the Christian faith.

00:24:05.252 --> 00:24:08.912
<v SPEAKER_1>But only if you know that is what a cross does.

00:24:08.912 --> 00:24:11.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Only if you know it's a Christian cross.

00:24:12.352 --> 00:24:24.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Because if you just saw a cross and had no background in Christianity or any of this other information, you would not know what is being symbolized.

00:24:24.072 --> 00:24:28.312
<v SPEAKER_1>You would just know, okay, there are two sticks that are crossed.

00:24:29.592 --> 00:24:36.112
<v SPEAKER_1>You would have, and even in English, cross, we have the term there in the symbol itself.

00:24:36.112 --> 00:24:46.812
<v SPEAKER_1>You're not going to understand it because you have to have some external information to explain the thing, which is part of what it means for it to be a symbol.

00:24:46.812 --> 00:24:51.332
<v SPEAKER_1>The meaning of the symbol is not inherent in the symbol, necessarily.

00:24:51.332 --> 00:24:55.872
<v SPEAKER_1>Sometimes a little bit of it can be, but it is not necessarily so.

00:24:55.872 --> 00:25:00.712
<v SPEAKER_1>The interpretation, the meaning, comes from external information.

00:25:00.712 --> 00:25:03.212
<v SPEAKER_1>In this case, the Christian religion.

00:25:03.212 --> 00:25:11.352
<v SPEAKER_1>If you know the Christian religion, you know that Christ was crucified, you know why the cross is a symbol of Christianity.

00:25:11.352 --> 00:25:28.112
<v SPEAKER_1>It represents Christianity in an abstract way, not in a concrete way, because the symbol itself, the thing, the picture, the image, in the sense of just being a picture, does not in and of itself necessarily represent the thing that is symbolized.

00:25:29.272 --> 00:25:30.812
<v SPEAKER_1>There is that level of abstraction.

00:25:32.612 --> 00:25:37.012
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, not the case with something that is an image.

00:25:37.012 --> 00:25:44.892
<v SPEAKER_1>It is going to be the case, in a slightly more abstract fashion than the image, with an idol.

00:25:44.892 --> 00:25:50.372
<v SPEAKER_1>Because of course, an idol is going to represent some false deity.

00:25:50.372 --> 00:25:54.552
<v SPEAKER_1>But it's probably going to represent it in a fairly concrete fashion.

00:25:54.552 --> 00:25:57.772
<v SPEAKER_1>A statue of Zeus is an idol.

00:25:57.772 --> 00:25:59.032
<v SPEAKER_1>But it's a statue of Zeus.

00:26:00.012 --> 00:26:02.692
<v SPEAKER_1>You can look at it and know what it is.

00:26:02.692 --> 00:26:10.912
<v SPEAKER_1>It is not as abstract as the cross, or any of a number of other symbols, because we use symbols all the time.

00:26:10.912 --> 00:26:14.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Letters are symbols, for instance.

00:26:14.632 --> 00:26:19.432
<v SPEAKER_1>Letters don't have meaning in and of themselves.

00:26:19.432 --> 00:26:24.692
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to know the meaning of the letter to know what the symbol symbolizes.

00:26:25.772 --> 00:26:26.692
<v SPEAKER_1>Words are symbols.

00:26:27.552 --> 00:26:37.152
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to know the meaning of that particular ordering of letters to understand the meaning of the word.

00:26:37.152 --> 00:26:42.852
<v SPEAKER_1>It is that external information that gives the actual meaning of the thing, not the thing itself.

00:26:42.852 --> 00:26:46.012
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not inherent in it.

00:26:46.012 --> 00:26:53.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And so you have the thing that is signified, and you have the signifier to use the terms that are most often used in semiotics.

00:26:54.472 --> 00:26:57.012
<v SPEAKER_1>The signifier is the symbol.

00:26:57.012 --> 00:27:03.192
<v SPEAKER_1>The signified is the thing that it symbolizes, the thing that it signifies.

00:27:03.192 --> 00:27:05.332
<v SPEAKER_1>You can use those terms roughly interchangeably.

00:27:06.412 --> 00:27:20.872
<v SPEAKER_1>So that gives us in essence, the core three or four, if you want to distinguish between image and icon, terms that we are going to use in these episodes, and with regard to the image of God, anytime we're really discussing it.

00:27:22.392 --> 00:27:41.592
<v SPEAKER_1>But an additional aspect of symbolism, and this is important to recognize, particularly historically but also in the modern world, there is sort of a division between how symbols are used.

00:27:41.592 --> 00:27:46.372
<v SPEAKER_1>In the modern world, symbols are most often used very publicly.

00:27:46.372 --> 00:27:46.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Not always.

00:27:47.532 --> 00:27:59.792
<v SPEAKER_1>There are still symbols that are used by secret societies and in groups, things like that, where the symbol has meaning for a particular group of people but is not widely known.

00:28:01.412 --> 00:28:15.452
<v SPEAKER_1>You can use this, for instance, to hide symbols or hide information in plain sight because only members of the in group will recognize what is actually being said because they know the meaning of the symbol, but most others do not.

00:28:16.452 --> 00:28:21.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Historically, that private use of symbols predominated.

00:28:21.012 --> 00:28:23.332
<v SPEAKER_1>It was more common than the public use.

00:28:23.332 --> 00:28:25.732
<v SPEAKER_1>There are many reasons for that.

00:28:25.732 --> 00:28:29.152
<v SPEAKER_1>They're not really germane to the topic today, so we'll leave them aside.

00:28:30.412 --> 00:28:34.372
<v SPEAKER_1>But historically, that private use of symbols was more common.

00:28:34.372 --> 00:28:40.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Today, it's really the public use because we use symbols all over the place for things.

00:28:40.072 --> 00:28:50.052
<v SPEAKER_1>We have symbols that mean a hospital or a police station or a fire station or emergency services or any of a number of other things.

00:28:50.052 --> 00:28:53.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Corporate logos are symbols.

00:28:53.472 --> 00:28:59.232
<v SPEAKER_1>The apple with a bite out of it is the symbol of the apple corporation.

00:28:59.232 --> 00:29:00.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We all know it.

00:29:00.692 --> 00:29:01.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a symbol we all know.

00:29:01.872 --> 00:29:03.632
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not secret.

00:29:03.632 --> 00:29:08.052
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not like symbols would have been used in the ancient world more secretive.

00:29:10.452 --> 00:29:23.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And there is one final aspect of symbols that is noteworthy, not necessarily important for the episode, for the subject matter we're discussing, but certainly worth knowing.

00:29:24.432 --> 00:29:40.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Historically, the term for symbolism, and the term we're dealing with here, symbolon, the underlying Greek, what that would have meant coming from Pi again, is to throw together.

00:29:41.192 --> 00:29:49.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And don't focus too much on throw, because it's just the verb that was used for this, but think of to piece together, or to put back together.

00:29:49.312 --> 00:30:02.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Because one of the ways that you could verify something in the ancient world, because bear in mind, they didn't have sort of the information networks and things that we have today to verify identity and various things like that.

00:30:02.872 --> 00:30:05.332
<v SPEAKER_1>They didn't have identification cards.

00:30:05.332 --> 00:30:07.132
<v SPEAKER_1>They weren't carrying around passports.

00:30:08.192 --> 00:30:16.252
<v SPEAKER_1>But one of the ways that you could identify a person positively was by taking something and breaking it in half.

00:30:16.252 --> 00:30:22.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And then one party keeps one half, and the other party takes the other half.

00:30:22.852 --> 00:30:34.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, if you meet again or you pass this half of a thing to a third party, you can verify the other person by piecing it back together.

00:30:34.972 --> 00:30:36.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And so you could do this with...

00:30:36.752 --> 00:30:44.432
<v SPEAKER_1>This was done with dice, which were historically actually made from a small part of a foot bone.

00:30:44.432 --> 00:30:51.092
<v SPEAKER_1>Or you could do this with a clay tablet, a number of other things, but you would break this thing in half.

00:30:51.092 --> 00:31:03.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And then when you met this person again, or a third party in possession of this thing, appeared and said, I have the other half of this, well, you could verify it very easily, because you put it back together.

00:31:03.332 --> 00:31:06.732
<v SPEAKER_1>If it fit, you would identify the person.

00:31:06.732 --> 00:31:12.912
<v SPEAKER_1>It would be very difficult to forge this sort of thing, particularly without access to the other half.

00:31:12.912 --> 00:31:20.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And so this is one way that you could verify identity or ownership or any of a number of other things.

00:31:20.212 --> 00:31:23.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And so that is one of the historical uses.

00:31:23.512 --> 00:31:34.612
<v SPEAKER_1>That's where we get this term, symbolism and symbol from, this historical usage in order to identify positively a person.

00:31:34.612 --> 00:31:41.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And we see some of that usage carrying over into even early Christianity.

00:31:41.612 --> 00:31:46.212
<v SPEAKER_1>One of the symbols for early Christians was drawing half of a fish.

00:31:46.212 --> 00:31:51.412
<v SPEAKER_1>And then if the other person drew the other half, he was saying, I'm a Christian as well.

00:31:51.412 --> 00:32:01.212
<v SPEAKER_1>It was one of the ways to identify other Christians using a symbol and avoid some of the persecution that was ongoing at the time.

00:32:01.212 --> 00:32:08.212
<v SPEAKER_1>That is akin to the ancient usage of symbols, which again was more secretive, more for in groups.

00:32:08.212 --> 00:32:17.492
<v SPEAKER_1>But it grew into the modern usage in which the fish and the cross and all these things are publicly known as symbols that represent Christianity.

00:32:19.072 --> 00:32:25.592
<v SPEAKER_1>Just an interesting bit of the history of how symbols have been used and how the term came to be.

00:32:25.592 --> 00:32:31.692
<v SPEAKER_1>But those are the core terms that we will be using for this series of episodes.

00:32:31.692 --> 00:32:46.152
<v SPEAKER_1>And so just bear in mind that essentially you have that increasing level of abstraction, where certainly a symbol is abstractly related to the thing, and an image is concretely related to the thing.

00:32:47.232 --> 00:32:53.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And then you have the idol, of course, in the middle, which is between the two.

00:32:53.372 --> 00:32:54.772
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not entirely abstract.

00:32:54.772 --> 00:32:57.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not entirely concrete.

00:32:57.232 --> 00:32:59.432
<v SPEAKER_1>They don't really necessarily overlap.

00:32:59.432 --> 00:33:06.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, there's a little bit of a gray area at the edges, but these are distinct concepts that you have to keep clear.

00:33:06.632 --> 00:33:16.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Because scripture uses these concepts, scripture uses these terms, and if you don't know what they mean, you aren't going to understand what scripture is telling you.

00:33:17.652 --> 00:33:25.552
<v SPEAKER_1>So, you have to understand the differences between and among an image or icon, an idol, and a symbol.

00:33:26.752 --> 00:33:44.292
<v SPEAKER_2>For me, I think that the most apt comparison that some of you will be familiar with, I'll give a few different examples from different disciplines for how an image works, is that it's functionally a pass-through, as Corey was describing.

00:33:44.292 --> 00:33:47.092
<v SPEAKER_2>So, I'll give you the examples I have in mind.

00:33:47.112 --> 00:34:15.732
<v SPEAKER_2>If you're familiar with a wormhole in physics, it's a hypothetical construct where you have two different points in space, and the theory is that if space-time itself is folded, those two points that are separate can actually be folded so they're the same place, such that when you pass through one of those points and the wormhole pair, and you emerge from the other point, you haven't gone anywhere because you've moved across space and time, but you were doing it through the hole.

00:34:15.732 --> 00:34:22.892
<v SPEAKER_2>The action of your motion relative to the wormhole seems instantaneous because it was the same thing.

00:34:22.892 --> 00:34:28.252
<v SPEAKER_2>The disparate points far flung in space were actually the same point because they were folded over.

00:34:28.252 --> 00:34:30.712
<v SPEAKER_2>And so the action one is the action on the other.

00:34:30.712 --> 00:34:37.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Another example also kind of in physics is spooky action at a distance or quantum entanglement.

00:34:37.092 --> 00:34:40.432
<v SPEAKER_2>This is something that's actually being used in the real world now for computers.

00:34:41.112 --> 00:35:00.932
<v SPEAKER_2>If you're interested in stuff and keeping up with it, they can actually quantum entangle an electron in one place with an electron in another place such that when they impart different attributes to the spin of the one electron, electron A, electron B experiences the same changes.

00:35:00.932 --> 00:35:04.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And they're able to exploit this for computation.

00:35:04.052 --> 00:35:09.592
<v SPEAKER_2>So when I was a kid and I was reading about cryptography, quantum computers were the sci-fi future.

00:35:09.672 --> 00:35:11.432
<v SPEAKER_2>It was barely imaginable.

00:35:11.432 --> 00:35:13.132
<v SPEAKER_2>It was certainly never going to happen.

00:35:13.132 --> 00:35:16.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And now IBM is selling them as commercial products.

00:35:16.052 --> 00:35:27.932
<v SPEAKER_2>D-Wave and a number of other companies are selling these things where it's fundamentally you act on one object and the other object at a distance experiences the action.

00:35:27.932 --> 00:35:32.792
<v SPEAKER_2>So the image relationship is that functionally, they kind of behave the same.

00:35:32.792 --> 00:35:35.432
<v SPEAKER_2>What you do to one affects the other.

00:35:35.432 --> 00:35:40.672
<v SPEAKER_2>And the third example is kind of the most mundane, at least if you know anything about Unix, it would be the Unix pipe.

00:35:40.672 --> 00:35:44.712
<v SPEAKER_2>You can have one command, and then the pipe, and then another command.

00:35:44.712 --> 00:35:48.852
<v SPEAKER_2>And anything that the first command outputs, you pipe it through the pipe.

00:35:48.852 --> 00:35:53.812
<v SPEAKER_2>again, to use a sort of tautology that Corey was describing with symbol symbolizing.

00:35:53.812 --> 00:36:01.212
<v SPEAKER_2>When you pipe something through a pipe, it comes out the other side, and the second command can just deal with it as though it was its input.

00:36:01.212 --> 00:36:15.192
<v SPEAKER_2>So when we're talking about an image, we're talking about the action on one, or the presence, or the notion of one, the properties of one being manifest in the other place.

00:36:15.192 --> 00:36:29.772
<v SPEAKER_2>This is something that's come up in church history with the name icon, which is, Corey said, image and icon is the exact same thing, and the iconoclastic blow up, the East and the West split, one of the reasons was over icons.

00:36:29.792 --> 00:36:54.312
<v SPEAKER_2>And when you hear someone who's Eastern Orthodox talk about their veneration of icons, they will very clearly make the argument that Corey made about icons and images not merely being a symbol, but being a pass through, so that when they venerate, when they kiss the painting of saint whomever of the desert, as they almost always are, they're not kissing a painting.

00:36:54.312 --> 00:36:59.492
<v SPEAKER_2>They're not committing idolatry, because they're not treating the painting as an idol.

00:36:59.492 --> 00:37:02.872
<v SPEAKER_2>They're treating the painting as saint whatever of the desert.

00:37:03.292 --> 00:37:13.012
<v SPEAKER_2>And so they're kissing saint whatever of the desert through the wormhole, through the quantum entanglement, through the pipe, through the image of the painting.

00:37:13.012 --> 00:37:16.292
<v SPEAKER_2>But their veneration is not directed at the physical object.

00:37:16.292 --> 00:37:18.932
<v SPEAKER_2>It's directed at the saint in heaven.

00:37:18.932 --> 00:37:25.752
<v SPEAKER_2>The problem with this as Christians is that that is itself worship, and it is idolatry.

00:37:25.752 --> 00:37:27.372
<v SPEAKER_2>This episode isn't about that.

00:37:27.372 --> 00:37:29.812
<v SPEAKER_2>This was part of the reason for discussing all of it.

00:37:29.812 --> 00:37:30.832
<v SPEAKER_2>This is secondary.

00:37:30.952 --> 00:37:34.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Our purpose here is that this was a division with the East.

00:37:34.872 --> 00:37:38.912
<v SPEAKER_2>It's now a division with Roman Catholicism for similar reasons.

00:37:38.912 --> 00:37:48.652
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also a division among some of the Reformed and the rest of the Western Christian Church who go even further in what they consider to be prohibited images.

00:37:48.652 --> 00:38:17.432
<v SPEAKER_2>The one proof text I'm going to give here, in view of everything we've ever said about proof texting being dangerous, when you read Revelation 19 10, John in heaven, after the angel, and this was not Christ, this was an actual angel who testifies to such in this verse, the angel had shown John these visions, shown these things, and John responded thus, then I fell down at his feet to worship him.

00:38:17.432 --> 00:38:20.012
<v SPEAKER_2>But he said to me, you must not do that.

00:38:20.012 --> 00:38:25.612
<v SPEAKER_2>I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus, worship God.

00:38:26.412 --> 00:38:29.552
<v SPEAKER_2>For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

00:38:29.552 --> 00:38:33.212
<v SPEAKER_2>And the word there for worship is venerate.

00:38:33.212 --> 00:38:34.532
<v SPEAKER_2>It's obeisance.

00:38:34.532 --> 00:38:40.832
<v SPEAKER_2>It's the lowest level of what both the Orthodox and the Romanists speak about when they talk about veneration.

00:38:40.832 --> 00:38:42.852
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, oh, we're not worshiping like we worship God.

00:38:42.852 --> 00:38:49.532
<v SPEAKER_2>We're doing a much lower level where it's just we're passing through to this other guy, you know, saying whatever the desert.

00:38:49.532 --> 00:38:55.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Mary, we're kissing, we're venerating, we're loving, but it's not worship.

00:38:55.392 --> 00:39:02.212
<v SPEAKER_2>When you read the plain text of Revelation 1910, go look it in Greek, the English translations are spot on.

00:39:02.212 --> 00:39:03.672
<v SPEAKER_2>They're not playing any games.

00:39:03.672 --> 00:39:11.132
<v SPEAKER_2>When they say worship, they're talking about the lowest form and calling that idolatry, saying, don't worship me.

00:39:11.132 --> 00:39:13.672
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm a creature like you.

00:39:13.672 --> 00:39:18.432
<v SPEAKER_2>When you read that in view of all the other prohibitions of idolatry, it's clear that that's a problem.

00:39:18.432 --> 00:39:26.352
<v SPEAKER_2>The discussion in scripture prohibiting idolatry is prohibiting worshiping the creature rather than creator, whatever the creature is.

00:39:26.352 --> 00:39:28.952
<v SPEAKER_2>The thing that is created must not be worshiped.

00:39:28.952 --> 00:39:30.332
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't worship a man.

00:39:30.332 --> 00:39:31.752
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't worship a plant.

00:39:31.752 --> 00:39:33.732
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't worship a painting.

00:39:33.732 --> 00:39:35.972
<v SPEAKER_2>You worship God alone.

00:39:35.972 --> 00:39:48.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's important when we're talking about images, because if you think of an image as a pass-through, then, which it is, in all the context we'll discuss here, when we're talking about an image, it is a pass-through, the other thing.

00:39:48.092 --> 00:39:54.032
<v SPEAKER_2>That doesn't get you off the hook, because if you're worshiping the thing on the other side, it better be God.

00:39:54.032 --> 00:39:57.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And you don't need an image to worship God.

00:39:57.512 --> 00:40:00.332
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, when we think image, we think JPEG.

00:40:00.332 --> 00:40:01.932
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, we think, oh, it's a picture.

00:40:01.932 --> 00:40:04.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, that's not really what's going on.

00:40:04.092 --> 00:40:09.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Corey talked about a little bit, but image fundamentally is about that pass-through nature.

00:40:09.312 --> 00:40:13.632
<v SPEAKER_2>It's about the action on the image is an action on the thing itself.

00:40:14.392 --> 00:40:19.532
<v SPEAKER_2>And so just keep in mind as we go throughout this episode, that that is what we're talking about.

00:40:19.532 --> 00:40:24.792
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not JPEGs, it's not pictures, it's our icons in the colloquial sense.

00:40:24.792 --> 00:40:29.352
<v SPEAKER_2>It is the representation of the reality of the thing.

00:40:29.352 --> 00:40:39.232
<v SPEAKER_1>To add a note of nuance, as it were, as much as we are loath to do that sometimes, I want to be very careful about what Woe just said.

00:40:39.232 --> 00:40:47.772
<v SPEAKER_1>I, of course, agree with what he said, but I know that there are going to be those who will object and say, will you have crucifixes in your church?

00:40:47.772 --> 00:40:49.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Will you have artwork in your church?

00:40:49.532 --> 00:40:51.912
<v SPEAKER_1>Will you have paintings in your church?

00:40:51.912 --> 00:40:58.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Aren't you doing the same thing with those that the Eastern Orthodox are doing with icons?

00:40:58.492 --> 00:41:00.272
<v SPEAKER_1>And the answer is no.

00:41:00.272 --> 00:41:08.232
<v SPEAKER_1>And the reason for that, this is vitally important, and this goes back to what I explained already with the terms we are using.

00:41:10.132 --> 00:41:19.032
<v SPEAKER_1>Those things are being used in the Western tradition, for those in the Western tradition who actually still use these things, as symbols.

00:41:19.032 --> 00:41:21.232
<v SPEAKER_1>again, the cross is a symbol.

00:41:21.252 --> 00:41:31.512
<v SPEAKER_1>I have a crucifix above where I say my daily prayers, and I do look at that some of the time when I'm praying.

00:41:31.512 --> 00:41:33.112
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not worshiping it.

00:41:33.112 --> 00:41:34.312
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not venerating it.

00:41:34.812 --> 00:41:40.952
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not directing my worship through the crucifix to God.

00:41:40.952 --> 00:41:44.052
<v SPEAKER_1>That is a symbol of the Christian faith.

00:41:44.052 --> 00:41:47.212
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a symbol of Christ sacrificed.

00:41:47.212 --> 00:42:04.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Incidentally, it is also, to some more limited degree, an image of it, but it is not an idol, and it is not an icon in the sense that the Eastern Orthodox use the term, which is why I said in the beginning, we are not distinguishing image and icon.

00:42:04.772 --> 00:42:09.212
<v SPEAKER_1>That's part of the reason, because we are not getting into that morass.

00:42:09.212 --> 00:42:13.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We're not getting into the mire that is Eastern Orthodox theology.

00:42:13.692 --> 00:42:15.852
<v SPEAKER_1>We already dealt with that in an episode.

00:42:15.852 --> 00:42:28.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we're not going to distinguish image and icon in the way they attempt to do it, which again, there's some irony there, being that the Eastern Orthodox are historically the Greek speaking part of the church.

00:42:28.812 --> 00:42:36.352
<v SPEAKER_1>One would think they would recognize that there is no distinction there, because again, Greek use is only the term icon for both of those things.

00:42:38.072 --> 00:42:44.252
<v SPEAKER_1>One way you can think about this is with regard to flags.

00:42:44.252 --> 00:42:48.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Many of us grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:42:48.072 --> 00:42:50.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Undoubtedly, that's true for many of you in the audience.

00:42:52.132 --> 00:43:00.712
<v SPEAKER_1>When you are using a flag in that way, the flag is symbolizing the thing, the ultimate thing.

00:43:00.712 --> 00:43:01.712
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a symbol.

00:43:01.712 --> 00:43:04.172
<v SPEAKER_1>It is not the thing itself.

00:43:04.172 --> 00:43:13.372
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, in the case of the Pledge of Allegiance, there's that weird bit about pledging allegiance to the flag seemingly itself, but that's a tangential issue.

00:43:13.372 --> 00:43:19.892
<v SPEAKER_1>What is actually being done is the flag is used to symbolize the country.

00:43:19.892 --> 00:43:24.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It is used as a symbol of patriotism, of love for your nation.

00:43:25.932 --> 00:43:32.332
<v SPEAKER_1>You are not directing loyalty or worship or honor or whatever to the flag itself.

00:43:32.332 --> 00:43:44.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, there are codes related to how you treat flags because it is a symbol of the nation, and so how you treat it is symbolic of how you view your nation.

00:43:44.172 --> 00:43:48.712
<v SPEAKER_1>The same thing is true with regard to items that are used in worship.

00:43:49.832 --> 00:44:10.292
<v SPEAKER_1>You would never abuse the chalice or the unconsecrated host, the unconsecrated bread or a crucifix or anything like that, not because the thing itself is holy, but because it is a symbol of the Christian faith.

00:44:10.292 --> 00:44:12.432
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a symbol of God.

00:44:12.432 --> 00:44:14.332
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a symbol of the things that matter.

00:44:15.172 --> 00:44:26.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And so, what you do to the symbol, in effect, you are doing to God, to the Christian faith, in the case of the flag, to your nation.

00:44:26.432 --> 00:44:28.472
<v SPEAKER_1>That's why it matters.

00:44:28.472 --> 00:44:47.192
<v SPEAKER_1>again, if you have a crucifix in your church or paintings or statues or any of those things, and you are in the Protestant tradition, there are some distinctions here, obviously, for the Roman Catholics, you are not worshiping or venerating the thing.

00:44:47.192 --> 00:44:54.872
<v SPEAKER_1>You are using it as a symbol to draw the mind to the thing that is symbolized.

00:44:54.872 --> 00:44:58.212
<v SPEAKER_1>So the worship is not directed at the crucifix.

00:44:58.212 --> 00:44:59.392
<v SPEAKER_1>It should never be anyway.

00:44:59.392 --> 00:45:02.172
<v SPEAKER_1>That should not enter your mind.

00:45:02.172 --> 00:45:09.532
<v SPEAKER_1>The worship is directed at Christ, at God, with the crucifix used as a symbol to remind you of that.

00:45:10.252 --> 00:45:18.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Because part of the reason, and this is something that is again very important to recognize, human beings are physical.

00:45:18.892 --> 00:45:29.272
<v SPEAKER_1>This is one of those things that just constantly comes up in modern Christian discourse, because we have a bit of creeping Gnosticism around the edges, as we went over in the episode on Gnosticism.

00:45:30.492 --> 00:45:41.812
<v SPEAKER_1>If you deny the reality and the importance of physical things, you wind up in all sorts of crazy places, and you wind up believing all sorts of heresies.

00:45:41.812 --> 00:45:46.872
<v SPEAKER_1>Human beings are not just a soul.

00:45:46.872 --> 00:45:53.252
<v SPEAKER_1>And this is one of those times where I'm not going to just dismiss dealing with the tripartite nature of humanity.

00:45:53.252 --> 00:45:56.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Human beings are body, mind, and soul.

00:45:56.452 --> 00:45:58.532
<v SPEAKER_1>We are a Trinity.

00:45:58.532 --> 00:46:00.232
<v SPEAKER_1>God made us in his image.

00:46:00.232 --> 00:46:04.372
<v SPEAKER_1>It shouldn't be surprising that we are, in fact, Trinity.

00:46:04.372 --> 00:46:08.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Not in the same way as God, because, of course, we aren't three persons.

00:46:08.112 --> 00:46:10.852
<v SPEAKER_1>We're one person that is tripartite.

00:46:10.852 --> 00:46:14.292
<v SPEAKER_1>And unlike God, we are tripartite.

00:46:14.292 --> 00:46:17.032
<v SPEAKER_1>We have parts.

00:46:17.032 --> 00:46:20.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Because, of course, the soul can be separated from the body.

00:46:20.332 --> 00:46:21.672
<v SPEAKER_1>That's what death is.

00:46:21.672 --> 00:46:22.772
<v SPEAKER_1>It's unnatural.

00:46:22.772 --> 00:46:23.552
<v SPEAKER_1>It's terrible.

00:46:23.552 --> 00:46:25.612
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a horrible state.

00:46:25.612 --> 00:46:30.492
<v SPEAKER_1>And we will be rescued from it at the resurrection, of course.

00:46:30.492 --> 00:46:32.672
<v SPEAKER_1>But it is possible for us.

00:46:34.012 --> 00:46:35.692
<v SPEAKER_1>God is not composed of parts.

00:46:35.792 --> 00:46:40.172
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't take one of the persons out of the Trinity.

00:46:40.172 --> 00:46:47.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And I don't even want to go any further into that, because it is usually not profitable to start delving into the Trinity in that way.

00:46:47.112 --> 00:46:55.092
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not something the human mind can comprehend and grasp in a way that is going to be profitable, because usually you're going to fall into heresy.

00:46:56.452 --> 00:47:06.752
<v SPEAKER_1>But the tripartite nature of mankind is important when speaking of the image, because each part of man is in the image of God, in a different way.

00:47:06.752 --> 00:47:08.232
<v SPEAKER_1>There's overlap here.

00:47:08.232 --> 00:47:12.112
<v SPEAKER_1>They're related, but there are distinctions as well.

00:47:12.112 --> 00:47:28.232
<v SPEAKER_1>But the point that I'm making here specifically, because we'll get into that more either in the rest of this episode, or perhaps in the next episode, the reason that's important is because that physical nature, the body, is part of this.

00:47:28.232 --> 00:47:34.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And part of that is going to be the appreciation of beauty and the use of symbols.

00:47:37.052 --> 00:47:40.112
<v SPEAKER_1>God himself uses symbols.

00:47:40.112 --> 00:47:42.592
<v SPEAKER_1>He uses them throughout scripture.

00:47:42.592 --> 00:47:45.752
<v SPEAKER_1>The sacraments themselves are symbolic.

00:47:45.752 --> 00:47:50.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Baptism symbolizes your burial and resurrection.

00:47:50.792 --> 00:47:52.072
<v SPEAKER_1>It's a symbol.

00:47:53.112 --> 00:47:55.832
<v SPEAKER_1>The sacrament of the altar is symbolic.

00:47:55.832 --> 00:47:57.352
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not merely symbolic.

00:47:57.352 --> 00:48:00.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Of course, neither of us would ever say that.

00:48:00.392 --> 00:48:03.112
<v SPEAKER_1>We went over that in the episode on the sacrament.

00:48:04.372 --> 00:48:11.292
<v SPEAKER_1>But it is symbolic as well as real to contrast those two.

00:48:11.292 --> 00:48:13.112
<v SPEAKER_1>God uses symbols.

00:48:13.112 --> 00:48:20.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we also use symbols because part of being in the image of God is, of course, imitating God in some ways.

00:48:20.392 --> 00:48:24.812
<v SPEAKER_1>We are doing some of the things of God after he has done them.

00:48:24.812 --> 00:48:28.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we use symbols in our worship.

00:48:28.112 --> 00:48:41.712
<v SPEAKER_1>We use these things to remind ourselves of aspects of the Christian religion, of certain parts of the Christian faith, of just the Christian faith itself, of Christ's sacrifice, of all of these different things.

00:48:41.712 --> 00:48:45.492
<v SPEAKER_1>These are tools that we use.

00:48:45.492 --> 00:48:52.872
<v SPEAKER_1>If you want to deny the use of all of those things, really what you're ultimately doing is denying the reality of the physical.

00:48:52.872 --> 00:48:55.852
<v SPEAKER_1>You are denying the reality of the flesh.

00:48:55.852 --> 00:49:09.532
<v SPEAKER_1>You are shoving aside the corporeal nature, the bodily nature of man in order to focus exclusively, which you should not do, on the spiritual nature of man.

00:49:09.532 --> 00:49:13.372
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot do that, because again, man is a Gestalt.

00:49:13.372 --> 00:49:20.072
<v SPEAKER_1>We are a sum of these things that is greater than any of them and greater than all of them simply combined.

00:49:22.232 --> 00:49:32.672
<v SPEAKER_1>All of them are important, and they will be important as we discuss the image of God, because the image relates to each of those, and relates to them in different ways.

00:49:32.672 --> 00:49:47.272
<v SPEAKER_1>In some ways, they become particularly salient with regard to the fall, and with regard to justification and sanctification, because the image of God and man was not destroyed in the fall.

00:49:47.272 --> 00:49:52.952
<v SPEAKER_1>It's important to note that, but was certainly defaced, as it were, degenerated.

00:49:53.792 --> 00:49:55.972
<v SPEAKER_1>It was harmed.

00:49:55.972 --> 00:49:59.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It was affected by the fall.

00:49:59.872 --> 00:50:05.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And it is restored in justification and through sanctification.

00:50:05.752 --> 00:50:09.632
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not that you get everything back immediately when you're justified.

00:50:09.632 --> 00:50:13.952
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not how this aspect of Christianity works.

00:50:13.952 --> 00:50:20.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Now justification, again, just to make sure that I am absolutely clear, we've been clear in other episodes, but I'll do it here as well.

00:50:20.772 --> 00:50:23.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, that is a one-time thing.

00:50:23.972 --> 00:50:25.212
<v SPEAKER_1>You are justified.

00:50:25.212 --> 00:50:26.852
<v SPEAKER_1>It's done.

00:50:26.852 --> 00:50:28.672
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not an ongoing process.

00:50:28.672 --> 00:50:31.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Sanctification is the ongoing process.

00:50:31.292 --> 00:50:33.392
<v SPEAKER_1>You are becoming more Christ-like.

00:50:33.392 --> 00:50:35.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And do note what scripture says about that.

00:50:35.812 --> 00:50:37.772
<v SPEAKER_1>You are being conformed to his image.

00:50:37.772 --> 00:50:40.132
<v SPEAKER_1>You are being conformed to Christ.

00:50:40.132 --> 00:50:45.552
<v SPEAKER_1>Because of course, Christ is the perfect image of God.

00:50:45.552 --> 00:50:51.632
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not to say that man is an imperfect image of God, although in our fallen state, of course, we certainly are.

00:50:53.152 --> 00:51:03.092
<v SPEAKER_1>Another aside, but an important one, because it's necessary when using some of these terms, perfect has a number of different senses.

00:51:04.152 --> 00:51:12.532
<v SPEAKER_1>And it is important to recognize which one is being used, and often which one is deliberately not being used.

00:51:13.572 --> 00:51:25.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when I say that Christ is the perfect image of God, which of course he is, because in Christ, the fullness of deity dwells bodily.

00:51:26.972 --> 00:51:30.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Make sure to mark that adverb, it's very important.

00:51:30.172 --> 00:51:36.012
<v SPEAKER_1>But Christ being the perfect image of God is an absolute statement.

00:51:36.012 --> 00:51:39.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And this is how you should think about the different senses of perfect.

00:51:39.372 --> 00:51:44.732
<v SPEAKER_1>There is a relative form of perfection, and there is an absolute form of perfection.

00:51:44.732 --> 00:51:52.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Christ is absolutely perfect in every way, but for what we're discussing here, with regard to the image of God.

00:51:52.972 --> 00:52:02.132
<v SPEAKER_1>To give a more concrete example, to speak of intelligence or knowledge, God is omniscient.

00:52:02.132 --> 00:52:04.712
<v SPEAKER_1>God knows all things.

00:52:04.712 --> 00:52:06.052
<v SPEAKER_1>He has all knowledge.

00:52:06.052 --> 00:52:08.992
<v SPEAKER_1>He is infinitely intelligent.

00:52:11.492 --> 00:52:29.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Man is not, and so in an absolute sense, man is not perfect with regard to knowledge or intelligence, because to be perfect in an absolute sense with regard to those would be to be omniscient, would be to be God.

00:52:29.892 --> 00:52:32.172
<v SPEAKER_1>And man is not God.

00:52:32.172 --> 00:52:35.812
<v SPEAKER_1>Take instead, say, a dog and a human being.

00:52:36.892 --> 00:53:09.572
<v SPEAKER_1>The man, hopefully, at least, is going to be more intelligent and more knowledgeable than the dog, and so in an absolute sense, the man is more perfect with regard to those attributes than the dog, but in a relative sense, that's not true, because in a relative sense, the perfection of the dog is with regard to it being a dog, and the perfection of the man is with regard to him being a man.

00:53:09.572 --> 00:53:16.452
<v SPEAKER_1>And so you don't want to think of these things in terms of saying, well, I'm imperfect because I'm not the absolute.

00:53:16.452 --> 00:53:21.672
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't be the absolute, because if you were the absolute, you would be God.

00:53:21.672 --> 00:53:27.032
<v SPEAKER_1>And just bear in mind, there are two very different senses of perfect.

00:53:27.032 --> 00:53:33.292
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if someone speaks of perfection, you need to know which sense of perfection he means.

00:53:33.412 --> 00:53:38.032
<v SPEAKER_1>Hopefully, he knows which one he intends to use, but often the speaker does not.

00:53:38.032 --> 00:53:43.272
<v SPEAKER_1>There is that difference between absolute perfection and relative perfection.

00:53:44.652 --> 00:53:54.592
<v SPEAKER_1>Because, of course, part of sanctification, and certainly the restoration at the resurrection, is a restoration to perfection.

00:53:54.592 --> 00:53:58.792
<v SPEAKER_1>But it is relative perfection, because it is the perfection for you.

00:53:58.792 --> 00:54:07.092
<v SPEAKER_1>You are being restored to what God wants you to be, what God wanted you to be without the effects, the now cumulative effects of the fall.

00:54:08.112 --> 00:54:14.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not that God is going to make dogs as smart as men, or men as smart as God.

00:54:14.872 --> 00:54:16.312
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not how that works.

00:54:16.312 --> 00:54:22.192
<v SPEAKER_1>You are going to be restored to the perfection that is your perfection.

00:54:22.192 --> 00:54:24.712
<v SPEAKER_1>It is the relative perfection.

00:54:24.712 --> 00:54:34.872
<v SPEAKER_1>So just bear in mind those two different senses of that term, because if you conflate those two things, you wander off into the weeds and you get lost.

00:54:34.872 --> 00:54:39.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Because saying that, well, man is imperfect, what do you mean?

00:54:39.632 --> 00:54:41.872
<v SPEAKER_1>Which sense of perfect?

00:54:41.872 --> 00:54:43.452
<v SPEAKER_1>They're different things.

00:54:45.052 --> 00:54:53.472
<v SPEAKER_2>One last thing on images or depictions, because I know it's a major concern, especially for some of our reformed friends.

00:54:53.472 --> 00:55:00.612
<v SPEAKER_2>And I do share this concern, particularly with the advent of AI generation of images.

00:55:00.612 --> 00:55:06.572
<v SPEAKER_2>It's basically possible to provide a prompt that will have Jesus doing anything you can imagine.

00:55:06.572 --> 00:55:09.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And incidentally, the same route for imagine is image.

00:55:09.872 --> 00:55:14.192
<v SPEAKER_2>So even just imagining something in your head is imaging the thing.

00:55:14.192 --> 00:55:21.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Whether or not you spit out a JPEG to imagine it is to visualize inside your mind that thing.

00:55:21.032 --> 00:55:31.812
<v SPEAKER_2>I completely agree with some of the reform to, in good conscience, believe that there's an absolute prohibition against all symbols of Christ visually.

00:55:31.812 --> 00:55:36.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Obviously, we disagree with that fundamentally, but that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all.

00:55:36.812 --> 00:55:45.612
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't think that depictions of Jesus in ways that are inconsistent with scripture, I don't know where to draw the line morally.

00:55:45.612 --> 00:55:50.412
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know where to say this is a sin and that's not a sin, but I absolutely agree that it makes me uncomfortable.

00:55:51.092 --> 00:55:57.672
<v SPEAKER_2>I would prefer not to act, not to create images, not to even imagine things that I wouldn't even describe here.

00:55:57.672 --> 00:56:04.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Not anything gross, but just like something that Jesus wouldn't have done in the Bible or something Jesus won't do in the future.

00:56:05.552 --> 00:56:10.792
<v SPEAKER_2>I personally have a problem with visualizing that, with imagining that.

00:56:10.792 --> 00:56:14.012
<v SPEAKER_2>So I think some people don't care at all.

00:56:14.012 --> 00:56:18.872
<v SPEAKER_2>They think, well, I can think about it, and so I can have this machine spit out, Jesus doing whatever I want.

00:56:18.872 --> 00:56:19.732
<v SPEAKER_2>There's a line there.

00:56:20.352 --> 00:56:22.312
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's particular to Christ.

00:56:22.312 --> 00:56:31.972
<v SPEAKER_2>See, it's got nothing to do with the Islamic prohibition, that nothing, no actual representation of any creature can be made, and so all the heart is abstract.

00:56:31.972 --> 00:56:33.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Not remotely a thing.

00:56:33.692 --> 00:56:37.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Just singling out God as maybe we don't go there.

00:56:37.452 --> 00:56:40.252
<v SPEAKER_2>I totally agree that that is a good sensibility.

00:56:40.252 --> 00:56:45.772
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't agree that it is from scripture in terms of being from the Ten Commandments.

00:56:45.772 --> 00:56:47.952
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't actually agree about what those commandments are.

00:56:48.692 --> 00:56:52.192
<v SPEAKER_2>But it's absolutely a valid concern.

00:56:52.192 --> 00:57:07.032
<v SPEAKER_2>And I, rather than beating up on those guys, even though I disagree with where they draw the line, I would admonish the rest of us to have a little bit more concern for maybe not just being flippant about how we represent God.

00:57:07.032 --> 00:57:09.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Because as Corey was saying earlier, it does matter.

00:57:09.692 --> 00:57:14.872
<v SPEAKER_2>The thing that you do to that which is symbolized flows through.

00:57:14.912 --> 00:57:22.592
<v SPEAKER_2>As we'll see here a minute in scripture, that's precisely the prohibition against us doing certain things to man.

00:57:22.592 --> 00:57:27.892
<v SPEAKER_2>God says directly, because man is made in his image, therefore we don't do that.

00:57:27.892 --> 00:57:32.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's specifically because of that pass-through nature that I mentioned earlier for the image.

00:57:32.832 --> 00:57:39.432
<v SPEAKER_2>If I act upon you in a way that harms you, in a sense, I have done that to God.

00:57:40.092 --> 00:57:46.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Not in some weird Eastern religion, we're all God thing, but man is the image of God.

00:57:46.332 --> 00:57:50.232
<v SPEAKER_2>How I might treat a dog is going to fall under a different set of rules.

00:57:50.232 --> 00:57:52.572
<v SPEAKER_2>again, none of these things are ever free for alls.

00:57:52.572 --> 00:57:59.952
<v SPEAKER_2>But there is a very specific line drawn around God, and a specific line drawn around man.

00:57:59.952 --> 00:58:03.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And the origin of that is right in the beginning of creation.

00:58:03.972 --> 00:58:15.672
<v SPEAKER_2>In Genesis 1, I'm going to read the longer passage, because the context is crucial for the understanding of what we talk about when we need the specific image of God.

00:58:15.672 --> 00:58:29.512
<v SPEAKER_2>And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

00:58:29.512 --> 00:58:35.332
<v SPEAKER_2>And God made man according to the image of God, He made him male and female, He made them.

00:58:36.132 --> 00:58:50.452
<v SPEAKER_2>And God blessed them, saying, increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas, and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle, and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

00:58:50.452 --> 00:58:56.192
<v SPEAKER_2>I think most of the time, when we think about this passage, we think of a couple unrelated things happening.

00:58:56.192 --> 00:59:02.792
<v SPEAKER_2>We have God making man in his image, and then totally unrelated, God is giving man dominion over the earth.

00:59:04.212 --> 00:59:10.512
<v SPEAKER_2>One of the principal things that we hope you'll take from this episode is that it's the same thing.

00:59:10.512 --> 00:59:20.292
<v SPEAKER_2>When God made Adam in God's image, and God gave Adam dominion over the earth, God is saying to Adam, You are my icon on the earth.

00:59:20.292 --> 00:59:23.532
<v SPEAKER_2>You rule over this place in my stead.

00:59:23.532 --> 00:59:27.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Such that Adam's hand was God's hand in creation.

00:59:27.492 --> 00:59:29.192
<v SPEAKER_2>That is how we were created.

00:59:29.192 --> 00:59:30.752
<v SPEAKER_2>That was the purpose of man.

00:59:31.872 --> 00:59:51.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And we are not really going to get into it too much in this episode, because in the earlier episode we did last year on scripture and ontology related to women, we specifically dealt with the clear distinctions the scripture make between man being created in God's image and woman being created in man's image.

00:59:51.132 --> 00:59:55.012
<v SPEAKER_2>And that is not a diminution of women by any stretch.

00:59:55.012 --> 01:00:02.152
<v SPEAKER_2>It is saying that two different things are happening, and one does not degrade the other in the context.

01:00:02.152 --> 01:00:03.272
<v SPEAKER_2>So we treat it more fully there.

01:00:03.272 --> 01:00:10.312
<v SPEAKER_2>We'll probably talk about a little bit here, but just know that the wording is always focused on the man.

01:00:10.312 --> 01:00:11.492
<v SPEAKER_2>And this shouldn't concern us.

01:00:11.492 --> 01:00:17.352
<v SPEAKER_2>The only reason anyone would even get nervous about this is having false egalitarian priors.

01:00:17.352 --> 01:00:23.552
<v SPEAKER_2>When God says Adam is to have dominion over the earth, that is headship.

01:00:23.552 --> 01:00:25.312
<v SPEAKER_2>What else does Adam have headship over?

01:00:25.812 --> 01:00:26.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Eve.

01:00:27.012 --> 01:00:35.692
<v SPEAKER_2>In creation, in perfection, before the fall, Adam has dominion over Eve as part of his own body, just as he has dominion over his hand.

01:00:35.692 --> 01:00:37.132
<v SPEAKER_2>That is not adversarial.

01:00:37.132 --> 01:00:38.192
<v SPEAKER_2>That is not hate.

01:00:38.192 --> 01:00:41.472
<v SPEAKER_2>That is pure love, and it is a part of himself.

01:00:41.472 --> 01:00:43.592
<v SPEAKER_2>But Adam is the head.

01:00:43.592 --> 01:00:49.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And the reason that all of creation fell is that Adam fell, and the head took the rest with it.

01:00:51.292 --> 01:00:59.852
<v SPEAKER_2>The headship and the dominion of man over the earth is inextricable from man having been created in the image of God.

01:00:59.852 --> 01:01:04.492
<v SPEAKER_2>So again, when you read that passage, when you hear it read to you, it's not two different things happening.

01:01:04.492 --> 01:01:11.432
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not creation and then dominion just sort of being dispensed, and I guess the man gets it instead of some other creature.

01:01:11.432 --> 01:01:17.672
<v SPEAKER_2>God specifically made man as his icon in creation to have dominion over it.

01:01:17.672 --> 01:01:19.172
<v SPEAKER_2>It's the same thing.

01:01:19.172 --> 01:01:29.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Had we not suffered the fall, all of mankind would be acting as God's hand, as God's icon in creation, and there would still be hierarchy.

01:01:29.912 --> 01:01:32.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Just as Adam was over Eve, he would be immortal.

01:01:32.812 --> 01:01:35.892
<v SPEAKER_2>He would be the king of all man because he was the first.

01:01:35.892 --> 01:01:37.872
<v SPEAKER_2>That makes him the most important.

01:01:37.872 --> 01:01:41.592
<v SPEAKER_2>The one that comes first is more important than the later ones.

01:01:41.592 --> 01:01:46.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Every family has multiple children, goes through some aspect of this stress.

01:01:46.392 --> 01:01:59.172
<v SPEAKER_2>The first one is prime, and at different times and places, in the episode that we did on inheritance, we talked about different as of inheritance to deal with the fact that the firstborn, does he get the lion's share?

01:01:59.172 --> 01:02:00.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Does he get half?

01:02:00.512 --> 01:02:02.232
<v SPEAKER_2>It's how you handle that.

01:02:02.232 --> 01:02:07.632
<v SPEAKER_2>There are different cultural treatments because there is an inherent primacy to whoever comes first.

01:02:07.632 --> 01:02:15.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Adam came first as the head of the world, as God's icon in the world, and all of us would have been made in Adam's image.

01:02:15.712 --> 01:02:17.412
<v SPEAKER_2>That wasn't just Eve.

01:02:17.412 --> 01:02:19.472
<v SPEAKER_2>It wasn't just the woman was made in the image of man.

01:02:20.392 --> 01:02:23.172
<v SPEAKER_2>We would have been made in the perfect image of Adam.

01:02:23.172 --> 01:02:25.112
<v SPEAKER_2>We are still made in the image of Adam.

01:02:25.112 --> 01:02:35.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Unfortunately, it's the fallen image, which is, as Corey was talking a little bit earlier, and we'll get into principally in next week's episode, the fallen image is a different thing, and it's a different problem.

01:02:35.532 --> 01:02:46.692
<v SPEAKER_2>But first and foremost, it's crucial to remember that by God creating man in his image, something very particular has happened with mankind that doesn't apply to any other creature.

01:02:47.472 --> 01:02:55.252
<v SPEAKER_2>That's why there's a distinction that's sometimes drawn correctly between man and animal.

01:02:55.252 --> 01:03:02.732
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't care how you slice it as long as you acknowledge that man is made in the image of God, and everything else is subordinate to that.

01:03:02.732 --> 01:03:11.992
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't personally have a problem with saying that man is an animal, but I'm also doing that in the context of Adam having been created thousands of years ago, so no evolution.

01:03:11.992 --> 01:03:16.692
<v SPEAKER_2>So it doesn't confuse anything internally for me to think of man as an animal.

01:03:16.692 --> 01:03:20.172
<v SPEAKER_2>We're all creatures, and those are usually used as synonyms.

01:03:21.372 --> 01:03:33.772
<v SPEAKER_2>It is important, however, when you're dealing with people who think about evolution, not to acknowledge that man is as evolved as an animal like anything else, because that would tacitly deny that man is created in the image of God.

01:03:33.772 --> 01:03:54.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And as the seminal question here, and it's not something we're really going to get into, but when you think about man being made in the image of God, and Jesus being the perfect image of God, as an exercise of the listener, think about what happens when you get into traniism and these other things of redefinition of self.

01:03:54.952 --> 01:04:05.732
<v SPEAKER_2>When we are made in one way, and we say, I despise this, there's one race, the human race, I'm transracial now, I feel black today, I'm not going to be what God made me, I'm going to be this other thing.

01:04:05.732 --> 01:04:06.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Call me Loretta.

01:04:06.912 --> 01:04:08.792
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't feel like I'm a man today.

01:04:08.792 --> 01:04:10.092
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't do that.

01:04:10.092 --> 01:04:19.412
<v SPEAKER_2>Not only because it's false, not only because it's demonstrably opposed to creation, but because it's secondarily an attack on the image in which we were created.

01:04:19.412 --> 01:04:23.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Even the fallen image of God, there's still something there that is being attacked.

01:04:23.992 --> 01:04:32.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And all these attacks on the image of God through attacking the image of man, that's the portal that is acting on A is acting on B.

01:04:32.932 --> 01:04:37.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's the reason for the satanic attack of traniasm and these related things.

01:04:37.952 --> 01:04:41.352
<v SPEAKER_2>It is an attack on the image of God indirectly through man.

01:04:41.352 --> 01:04:46.752
<v SPEAKER_2>Part of the reason that some of these things get so complicated is that the attacks are this complicated.

01:04:46.752 --> 01:04:51.212
<v SPEAKER_2>Look at how many different directions Satan is attacking from simultaneously.

01:04:51.212 --> 01:04:55.932
<v SPEAKER_2>And once you realize the damage that's being done, how much damage is actually being done?

01:04:55.932 --> 01:05:03.152
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, traniasm is not just about 41% suicide rates and fertility and like the horror of it.

01:05:03.152 --> 01:05:03.932
<v SPEAKER_2>It's more than that.

01:05:04.092 --> 01:05:06.472
<v SPEAKER_2>It's spiritual in multiple ways too.

01:05:06.472 --> 01:05:15.712
<v SPEAKER_2>And arguably the worst of them is that it is an attack on the Creator by attacking a creature that was actually made in the image of that Creator.

01:05:15.712 --> 01:05:17.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Your dog was not made in the image of God.

01:05:17.972 --> 01:05:19.032
<v SPEAKER_2>You were.

01:05:19.032 --> 01:05:33.412
<v SPEAKER_2>And even in your fallen state, there's something there for you to despise self or to despise another man, as scripture talks about and we'll get to later on, is a sin because of that, because it is an attack on God to do that.

01:05:33.412 --> 01:05:37.912
<v SPEAKER_2>So this image stuff, it's not just a fiddly philosophical construct.

01:05:37.912 --> 01:05:39.492
<v SPEAKER_2>There's actually something happening here.

01:05:39.492 --> 01:05:41.252
<v SPEAKER_2>The scripture makes clear.

01:05:41.272 --> 01:05:48.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And if we don't remember it, we don't take it seriously, it's easy to get lost in the weeds on some of these other discussions.

01:05:48.752 --> 01:06:04.092
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, the argument against tranias, you know, there are arguments that are biological, there are arguments that are genetic, but the principal argument needs to be, man is made in the image of God, and woman is made in the image of man, and any attack on that is an attack on God.

01:06:04.092 --> 01:06:06.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's the first fight that we fight.

01:06:06.132 --> 01:06:09.212
<v SPEAKER_2>And all the other fights are downstream from that.

01:06:09.212 --> 01:06:25.872
<v SPEAKER_1>When Woe says that women are not diminished by the fact that they are transitively, as it were, in the image of God, because woman is the glory of man, man is the glory, the image and glory of God, to quote 1st Corinthians.

01:06:27.732 --> 01:06:32.972
<v SPEAKER_1>That is part of what I was saying when I was speaking about the different kinds of perfection.

01:06:32.972 --> 01:06:37.592
<v SPEAKER_1>It was one of the points I was attempting to convey, and I just want to make that a little more clear.

01:06:39.092 --> 01:06:54.652
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that woman is transitively, which is to say through man after a fashion, in the image of God, because of course all of mankind is in the image of God, but just not in exactly the same way as between the sexes.

01:06:54.652 --> 01:06:58.812
<v SPEAKER_1>That is not to diminish woman in any way.

01:06:58.812 --> 01:07:07.432
<v SPEAKER_1>A woman is no less perfect with regard to her perfection because she is under the headship of man.

01:07:07.432 --> 01:07:15.312
<v SPEAKER_1>That's why I was speaking about the difference between my dog and me, between any animal and man.

01:07:16.732 --> 01:07:31.272
<v SPEAKER_1>The animal is not lesser with regard to its own perfection simply because the man is greater, because God made the man greater in certain ways, in many ways with regard to animals, certainly.

01:07:31.272 --> 01:07:35.312
<v SPEAKER_1>But also, man is greater than woman in certain ways.

01:07:35.312 --> 01:07:38.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Man is stronger, that's one of the most obvious ones.

01:07:38.952 --> 01:07:44.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Man is spoken of as the image and glory of God, and woman is spoken of as the glory of man.

01:07:46.792 --> 01:07:59.452
<v SPEAKER_1>again, that doesn't diminish woman, because we're not talking about sort of that absolute scale, because you can't have an absolute perfection, because again, that would make you God.

01:07:59.452 --> 01:08:07.592
<v SPEAKER_1>And so to be the perfect version of the thing that you are is what God intends for you.

01:08:07.592 --> 01:08:10.252
<v SPEAKER_1>That is what you should desire to be.

01:08:10.252 --> 01:08:16.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not to desire to be something greater or other than what God made you.

01:08:16.232 --> 01:08:24.592
<v SPEAKER_1>God made you to be what you are, simply a perfect version of it, instead of the fallen version that we all are today.

01:08:25.932 --> 01:08:55.892
<v SPEAKER_1>But to look at this verse from Genesis a little more closely, just briefly, when it says, So God created man in his own image, that first instance there of man is both the specific one, male, man, and the general one, which we also do use in English, of course.

01:08:55.892 --> 01:08:59.112
<v SPEAKER_1>It's anthropos in Greek here.

01:08:59.112 --> 01:09:03.772
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not necessarily only exclusively man.

01:09:03.772 --> 01:09:20.932
<v SPEAKER_1>But the reason that we can see, even here without resorting to other parts of scripture, which we should always do, of course, but we don't need to do it here, even though I've already mentioned one, you then see that singular in the second part of, really, this is sort of three lines of poetry here.

01:09:20.932 --> 01:09:24.312
<v SPEAKER_1>In the image of God, he created him.

01:09:24.312 --> 01:09:33.412
<v SPEAKER_1>That is, of course, third person, accusative, masculine, singular in the Greek and also in the English.

01:09:33.412 --> 01:09:35.472
<v SPEAKER_1>But then it says male and female, he created them.

01:09:36.092 --> 01:09:46.692
<v SPEAKER_1>You really have just what we were explaining with regard to the difference of the image of God as between the sexes.

01:09:46.692 --> 01:09:48.972
<v SPEAKER_1>You have that contained right here in this verse.

01:09:48.972 --> 01:09:54.652
<v SPEAKER_1>It's, of course, as I've already said, elsewhere in scripture as well, but you have it here.

01:09:54.652 --> 01:10:01.092
<v SPEAKER_1>This is a beautiful part of scripture, and as is so often true of scripture, it has many layers to it, has a depth to it.

01:10:02.352 --> 01:10:14.452
<v SPEAKER_1>You have God speaking of the creation of mankind in his own image, because do bear in mind, when God created Adam, he created all of mankind.

01:10:14.452 --> 01:10:20.292
<v SPEAKER_1>That is essentially what he did, because Adam is the federal head of mankind.

01:10:20.292 --> 01:10:24.432
<v SPEAKER_1>All of man descends from Adam.

01:10:24.432 --> 01:10:27.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Each and every one of us is a son or daughter of Adam.

01:10:28.952 --> 01:10:34.992
<v SPEAKER_1>And after a fashion, that includes Eve, because Eve was created from Adam.

01:10:34.992 --> 01:10:38.372
<v SPEAKER_1>Adam is the father of the entire human race.

01:10:38.372 --> 01:10:43.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's what you have here, the creation of mankind in God's image.

01:10:43.112 --> 01:11:11.872
<v SPEAKER_1>And you have that creation in the singular man, because that's singular there, of Adam, who was created, the second line, in the image of God, which again has many different senses to it, and they are all important, despite the fact that modern exegetes usually, again, intending to mislead, focus specifically, laser-like, on certain subsets of what the image is, ignoring the other parts.

01:11:12.912 --> 01:11:20.172
<v SPEAKER_1>But here you have the creation of this individual man, who is the federal head of all of mankind, in the image of God.

01:11:20.172 --> 01:11:23.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And then you have the third line, to make sure the point is clear.

01:11:24.112 --> 01:11:26.432
<v SPEAKER_1>Male and female, he created them.

01:11:27.452 --> 01:11:32.572
<v SPEAKER_1>Mankind is both sexes, male and female.

01:11:32.572 --> 01:11:35.792
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't have more human beings without both.

01:11:35.792 --> 01:11:38.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Hopefully, that is something that goes without explanation.

01:11:39.912 --> 01:11:46.992
<v SPEAKER_1>And so man and woman are both in the image of God, just not in exactly the same way.

01:11:46.992 --> 01:11:48.652
<v SPEAKER_1>That shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable.

01:11:48.652 --> 01:11:56.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It shouldn't make anyone feel lesser or particularly, it shouldn't puff you up with pride if you're a man.

01:11:56.232 --> 01:12:03.572
<v SPEAKER_1>It is just that God made man and woman different from one another, because woman is a helper fit for man.

01:12:03.572 --> 01:12:05.072
<v SPEAKER_1>She's not a replacement for man.

01:12:05.072 --> 01:12:07.352
<v SPEAKER_1>She's not a competitor to man.

01:12:07.352 --> 01:12:09.872
<v SPEAKER_1>She is a helper fit for him.

01:12:09.872 --> 01:12:14.692
<v SPEAKER_1>But do bear in mind again, that God also says it is not good for man to be alone.

01:12:14.692 --> 01:12:20.172
<v SPEAKER_1>So not only is woman a helper fit for man, really she's a necessary part.

01:12:21.092 --> 01:12:27.952
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not that man is incomplete or that God made man imperfect in some absolute sense.

01:12:27.952 --> 01:12:32.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Rather is that you have something that is greater than the sum of the parts.

01:12:32.332 --> 01:12:33.432
<v SPEAKER_1>This is again a gestalt.

01:12:33.432 --> 01:12:37.392
<v SPEAKER_1>That's why you see the creation of the one flesh union.

01:12:38.552 --> 01:12:47.132
<v SPEAKER_1>So don't let anyone rob you of any of the depth of this verse, of this doctrine, of this theology.

01:12:48.052 --> 01:12:55.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Don't flatten things, conflate them in ways that are impermissible and that destroy what God has created.

01:12:56.732 --> 01:12:58.472
<v SPEAKER_1>There is a hierarchy here.

01:12:58.472 --> 01:13:04.912
<v SPEAKER_1>We aren't denying that or trying to paper over it with however many words we can summon.

01:13:04.912 --> 01:13:09.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Man is the head, and that places man above woman.

01:13:09.792 --> 01:13:11.412
<v SPEAKER_1>That is simply the reality of it.

01:13:11.412 --> 01:13:14.232
<v SPEAKER_1>That is how God designed things.

01:13:14.232 --> 01:13:26.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Any attempt to flatten that, any attempt to achieve egalitarianism, to institute feminism, whatever it happens to be, is a direct assault on God's created order.

01:13:26.272 --> 01:13:33.632
<v SPEAKER_1>And it is a direct assault on the image of God in man, because it is a denial of how that works.

01:13:34.972 --> 01:13:41.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Those who attempt to say that men and women are perfectly equal, there are no distinctions, interchangeable.

01:13:41.172 --> 01:13:46.052
<v SPEAKER_1>In fact, you can even change your sex if you don't like the one you woke up as that day.

01:13:46.052 --> 01:13:56.752
<v SPEAKER_1>Those who attempt to do that are seeking to do the will of their father below and destroy the image of God in man, insofar as that is possible.

01:13:56.752 --> 01:14:00.092
<v SPEAKER_1>Because Satan hates God.

01:14:00.092 --> 01:14:03.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Only thing he hates more than you is God.

01:14:03.352 --> 01:14:11.212
<v SPEAKER_1>And so he wants to destroy anything in creation that looks like God, that is related to God.

01:14:11.732 --> 01:14:16.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is particularly the case for the images of God.

01:14:17.612 --> 01:14:24.232
<v SPEAKER_1>And it is a destruction of the image of God if women attempt to be men or men attempt to be women.

01:14:24.232 --> 01:14:31.792
<v SPEAKER_1>There's a reason that even wearing the clothing of the other sex is condemned in the harshest of terms in Scripture.

01:14:31.792 --> 01:14:34.272
<v SPEAKER_1>These are all things that are assaults on the image of God.

01:14:34.272 --> 01:14:38.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, remember what an assault on the image or the symbol is.

01:14:39.032 --> 01:14:42.452
<v SPEAKER_1>It is an assault on the thing that is imaged or symbolized.

01:14:42.452 --> 01:14:45.612
<v SPEAKER_1>Thankfully, we can do that with both of those words in English.

01:14:45.612 --> 01:14:48.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Not always the case in English, but it works here.

01:14:49.812 --> 01:15:05.332
<v SPEAKER_1>When you assault the reality of the differences between the sexes, of the hierarchy created, of headship, ultimately what you are seeking to do is to take God off his throne.

01:15:05.332 --> 01:15:06.012
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't do it.

01:15:06.312 --> 01:15:07.952
<v SPEAKER_1>You won't succeed.

01:15:07.952 --> 01:15:14.132
<v SPEAKER_1>But it is certainly extreme wickedness and depravity, even to mount the attempt.

01:15:14.132 --> 01:15:17.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is exactly what Satan is attempting to do.

01:15:17.332 --> 01:15:34.092
<v SPEAKER_1>And unfortunately, we see the very same thing flowing from many supposedly Christian pastors and teachers these days, because they will use the image of God, and usually they'll resort to Latin in order to make you think that they really know what they're talking about because they can use Latin.

01:15:34.472 --> 01:15:36.292
<v SPEAKER_1>So, they'll say, Imago Dei.

01:15:37.892 --> 01:15:51.492
<v SPEAKER_1>But they'll use it to attempt to undermine the reality of creation, to undermine the hierarchy that God has created, to deny that there are differences between and among, say, the races of men.

01:15:51.492 --> 01:15:57.272
<v SPEAKER_1>They'll say, oh, we're all in the image of God, and so Africans and Europeans are exactly the same, interchangeable.

01:15:59.392 --> 01:16:03.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Do not ever let any pastor or teacher do that.

01:16:03.352 --> 01:16:11.492
<v SPEAKER_1>Do not let them mislead you, because what they are doing is undermining what scripture says about the image of God.

01:16:11.492 --> 01:16:15.172
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a frontal assault on God.

01:16:15.172 --> 01:16:17.572
<v SPEAKER_1>That is heresy of the highest order.

01:16:17.572 --> 01:16:18.992
<v SPEAKER_1>It's blasphemy.

01:16:18.992 --> 01:16:26.192
<v SPEAKER_1>It is a horrible thing for anyone even to utter or think, let alone to stand up and publicly preach or teach.

01:16:26.192 --> 01:16:29.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet we see it everywhere these days.

01:16:29.692 --> 01:16:47.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Because if you get these things wrong, if you don't even understand in the first place what it means to be in the image of God, what it means to be male or female, what headship is, all of these issues that are interrelated, which is a point that we continue to make.

01:16:47.732 --> 01:16:50.372
<v SPEAKER_1>These are not things that are isolated.

01:16:50.372 --> 01:16:56.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, we do them as discrete episodes because we have to sleep and eat and read and do other things.

01:16:56.732 --> 01:16:59.832
<v SPEAKER_1>We can't just do 800 hours straight covering all of these.

01:17:01.192 --> 01:17:02.752
<v SPEAKER_1>But they are all connected.

01:17:02.752 --> 01:17:08.172
<v SPEAKER_1>These are not things where you can just take out a chunk and analyze it in isolation.

01:17:08.172 --> 01:17:10.352
<v SPEAKER_1>These things are all interrelated.

01:17:11.712 --> 01:17:19.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Being in the image of God is related to hierarchy, is related to the sexes, is related to the reality of human race.

01:17:21.512 --> 01:17:24.192
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything in God's creation is interconnected.

01:17:25.212 --> 01:17:30.572
<v SPEAKER_1>You can see that just from looking at the physical creation itself.

01:17:30.572 --> 01:17:37.212
<v SPEAKER_1>The plants and the animals, the insects, everything is interrelated with everything else.

01:17:37.212 --> 01:17:41.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Incidentally, sort of verging into environmentalism there, but that's a discussion for another day.

01:17:41.892 --> 01:17:44.812
<v SPEAKER_1>We will eventually get around to discussing that, I'm certain.

01:17:46.992 --> 01:17:50.132
<v SPEAKER_1>But you can't get any of these things wrong.

01:17:50.132 --> 01:17:54.432
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't just listen to a false teacher and go, oh yeah, it sounds right.

01:17:54.432 --> 01:17:55.792
<v SPEAKER_1>It sounds kind of Christian.

01:17:55.792 --> 01:17:59.652
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to think about what scripture actually says.

01:17:59.652 --> 01:18:06.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Not what feels good, not what agrees with the modern world, but what does scripture actually say?

01:18:06.632 --> 01:18:09.292
<v SPEAKER_1>And so just this verse is a great example.

01:18:09.292 --> 01:18:11.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Slow down and actually read the verse.

01:18:11.712 --> 01:18:13.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Read it carefully.

01:18:13.112 --> 01:18:17.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Pay attention to how God organized it, the words that he chose.

01:18:17.992 --> 01:18:21.372
<v SPEAKER_1>God does not willy-nilly choose his diction.

01:18:21.892 --> 01:18:27.232
<v SPEAKER_1>He doesn't decide he's just going to use, well, singular sounds better here, so I'll go there, and this can be plural.

01:18:27.232 --> 01:18:30.872
<v SPEAKER_1>God does the things that he does for a reason.

01:18:30.872 --> 01:18:38.412
<v SPEAKER_1>God does nothing according to arbitrariness or caprice, because he is God and he is perfect.

01:18:38.412 --> 01:18:44.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything he has done will do, all of it, already occurred.

01:18:44.532 --> 01:18:47.892
<v SPEAKER_1>From God's perspective, there is no such thing as time.

01:18:47.892 --> 01:18:51.912
<v SPEAKER_1>What God has done is what he has always done, is what he will always do.

01:18:51.912 --> 01:18:54.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And so there is no randomness with God.

01:18:54.512 --> 01:18:57.972
<v SPEAKER_1>again, there is no arbitrariness or caprice with God.

01:18:57.972 --> 01:19:08.012
<v SPEAKER_1>What his word says is what he wants it to say, and it says it specifically in that way, because that is what he wants you to understand about it.

01:19:08.012 --> 01:19:10.392
<v SPEAKER_1>So read his word carefully.

01:19:10.392 --> 01:19:17.612
<v SPEAKER_1>Even if you wind up reading less of it per day, per week, per month, fine, read it more carefully.

01:19:17.612 --> 01:19:19.132
<v SPEAKER_1>That's more important.

01:19:19.132 --> 01:19:23.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Pay attention to the actual words of what God said.

01:19:25.032 --> 01:19:35.292
<v SPEAKER_2>I came across a particular example of this just last week that is hilarious and apt and really kind of a microcosm of Stone Choir.

01:19:35.292 --> 01:19:40.812
<v SPEAKER_2>Corey was talking a minute ago, and it pops up in Genesis, it pops up everywhere, according to their kinds.

01:19:42.452 --> 01:19:58.632
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't really get much thought to what a kind is, but if you look at the word in English, and this is born out in the original Greek as well, the root of kind is kin, and the Proto-Indo-European root of kin is gene.

01:19:58.632 --> 01:20:06.552
<v SPEAKER_2>According to their kind is exactly what kin means, and if you go back to Old English, kin means family, it means race.

01:20:07.672 --> 01:20:13.732
<v SPEAKER_2>So kind, you could translate that race and be exactly spot on.

01:20:13.732 --> 01:20:18.192
<v SPEAKER_2>Not only is it kind, but kindness, that's what it's talking about.

01:20:18.192 --> 01:20:20.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Kindness is specifically racial.

01:20:20.992 --> 01:20:23.192
<v SPEAKER_2>It's literally a racial term.

01:20:23.192 --> 01:20:35.592
<v SPEAKER_2>So when someone calls on you to be more kind, they're saying you should be acting more like the person you're dealing with is the same race as you, is the same type as you, is according to your kind.

01:20:36.392 --> 01:20:50.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's the message that God has when he's dealing with things like the Good Samaritan, the passage where a man who was not of their kind sees them, when the Samaritan passes by, sees the man who's beaten and bruised.

01:20:50.092 --> 01:20:52.992
<v SPEAKER_2>He's not according to his kind, but he is a neighbor.

01:20:53.012 --> 01:20:56.712
<v SPEAKER_2>And the adjacency in that moment says, I'm going to take care of this guy.

01:20:56.712 --> 01:20:58.972
<v SPEAKER_2>He's not according to my kind, but he's right in front of me.

01:20:58.972 --> 01:21:00.612
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm going to help him.

01:21:00.612 --> 01:21:07.632
<v SPEAKER_2>The reason that that was necessary was because, well, one, the Jews, the Pharisees were despicable.

01:21:07.632 --> 01:21:10.172
<v SPEAKER_2>They didn't care about anyone but themselves.

01:21:10.172 --> 01:21:12.952
<v SPEAKER_2>They would happily walk past a man who wasn't like them.

01:21:12.952 --> 01:21:14.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And so they had to be condemned.

01:21:14.352 --> 01:21:16.852
<v SPEAKER_2>No, you have to actually help someone who's bleeding to death.

01:21:16.852 --> 01:21:19.212
<v SPEAKER_2>It doesn't matter if they're like you or not.

01:21:19.212 --> 01:21:21.292
<v SPEAKER_2>And we would never say anything different.

01:21:21.292 --> 01:21:27.092
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the whole point of what I was saying at the beginning about we need to help our own kind in North Carolina.

01:21:27.092 --> 01:21:28.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, those are neighbors.

01:21:28.652 --> 01:21:31.752
<v SPEAKER_2>They're kin to me in particular, but they're Americans.

01:21:32.692 --> 01:21:34.952
<v SPEAKER_2>A few of them in Western North Carolina are black.

01:21:34.952 --> 01:21:35.892
<v SPEAKER_2>Do I care?

01:21:35.892 --> 01:21:36.572
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

01:21:36.572 --> 01:21:38.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Help the black people, help the white people, help everybody.

01:21:38.972 --> 01:21:40.352
<v SPEAKER_2>They're all affected.

01:21:40.352 --> 01:21:47.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, something I did point out online, and a lot of people didn't really appreciate it, was that North Carolina is 22% black.

01:21:47.692 --> 01:21:50.372
<v SPEAKER_2>There are virtually no black people showing up to help.

01:21:50.372 --> 01:21:55.332
<v SPEAKER_2>I watched close to half a dozen hours of recovery efforts and saw hundreds of pictures.

01:21:55.352 --> 01:21:59.252
<v SPEAKER_2>I personally didn't see a single black face helping anyone.

01:21:59.252 --> 01:22:00.612
<v SPEAKER_2>Some people say they saw some guys.

01:22:00.612 --> 01:22:01.392
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm sure that's true.

01:22:01.932 --> 01:22:09.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Someone reported to me that he was on the ground doing volunteer stuff with 3,000 volunteers, and he said there were about five or six black people there.

01:22:09.592 --> 01:22:11.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Probably who live there and good for them.

01:22:11.472 --> 01:22:18.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, according to your kind, for them means not mine, don't care.

01:22:18.252 --> 01:22:22.192
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know if they would show up for their own either, but they certainly won't show up for us.

01:22:22.192 --> 01:22:26.172
<v SPEAKER_2>So everyone else understands what kindness means.

01:22:26.172 --> 01:22:28.472
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's not an out for white people to be jerks.

01:22:28.932 --> 01:22:32.692
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not an out for us to say, well, I don't care about anybody else.

01:22:32.692 --> 01:22:37.752
<v SPEAKER_2>But so many people want to avoid the fact that race is intrinsic.

01:22:37.752 --> 01:22:40.552
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't read scripture and get away from race.

01:22:40.552 --> 01:22:47.892
<v SPEAKER_2>When you read according to their kind, whether it's about plants or animals or people, it's always referencing genes.

01:22:47.892 --> 01:22:49.332
<v SPEAKER_2>How are we produced?

01:22:49.332 --> 01:22:51.992
<v SPEAKER_2>It is a genetic lineage going back to Adam.

01:22:51.992 --> 01:22:56.892
<v SPEAKER_2>Every plant on the planet, I'm sure those words are related as well.

01:22:56.892 --> 01:22:58.092
<v SPEAKER_2>I haven't actually looked, but probably.

01:22:59.512 --> 01:23:06.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Every animal, every plant, every creature traces its origins back to the genes in the garden.

01:23:06.472 --> 01:23:08.472
<v SPEAKER_2>That's where God made everything.

01:23:08.472 --> 01:23:12.412
<v SPEAKER_2>And the propagation of the species according to their kinds is reproduction.

01:23:12.412 --> 01:23:14.512
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the system that God created.

01:23:14.512 --> 01:23:19.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And so again, just the word kind, kindness, like you can't get away from it.

01:23:19.352 --> 01:23:20.592
<v SPEAKER_2>And what has Satan done?

01:23:20.592 --> 01:23:21.992
<v SPEAKER_2>He's made it impossible.

01:23:21.992 --> 01:23:25.972
<v SPEAKER_2>He's made it so that every time we say the word race, somebody gets annoyed.

01:23:25.972 --> 01:23:26.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Somebody probably shut off.

01:23:26.932 --> 01:23:29.052
<v SPEAKER_2>I can't believe they're talking about race again in this episode.

01:23:29.052 --> 01:23:32.232
<v SPEAKER_2>Of all the episodes, you're talking about the image of God, and you're going to talk about race?

01:23:32.232 --> 01:23:38.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, when we're talking about man being created according to kinds, yeah, I am.

01:23:38.032 --> 01:23:41.892
<v SPEAKER_2>Every race of man is in the image of God.

01:23:41.892 --> 01:23:43.852
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the way God made it.

01:23:43.852 --> 01:23:45.432
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't get a vote.

01:23:45.432 --> 01:23:55.092
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, in the race episode on genetics, we talked about the fact that genetic reproduction is necessarily lossy in terms of information.

01:23:55.852 --> 01:24:05.892
<v SPEAKER_2>So although every Japhethite on the planet came from Japheth, we can't reverse-engineer Japheth from some amalgamation of his great-great-great-great-grandsons.

01:24:07.032 --> 01:24:09.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Information was lost, some of it irretrievably.

01:24:09.772 --> 01:24:11.592
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a one-way trip.

01:24:11.592 --> 01:24:18.472
<v SPEAKER_2>But that speciation that God has permitted among all the various races all around the world was according to his good design.

01:24:18.492 --> 01:24:29.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And as faithful Christians who don't scream and shout when we read scripture and see things that are, well, I guess this is about race, too, like, okay, that's, it's no surprise to us.

01:24:29.092 --> 01:24:35.112
<v SPEAKER_2>I just laugh at this point when I look up the, you know, the etymology of some word, like, yeah, there's another one.

01:24:35.112 --> 01:24:42.272
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's not we have a one-track mind about any of this stuff, but when we talk about creation, it's unavoidable.

01:24:42.272 --> 01:24:43.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's why Satan's attacking it.

01:24:44.512 --> 01:24:46.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Satan's attacking race.

01:24:46.032 --> 01:24:51.172
<v SPEAKER_2>He's attacking genetics, because it's how God propagates creation, God's creation.

01:24:51.172 --> 01:24:52.352
<v SPEAKER_2>Satan hates it.

01:24:52.352 --> 01:24:53.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Satan can't reproduce.

01:24:53.912 --> 01:24:55.572
<v SPEAKER_2>He can't propagate anything.

01:24:55.572 --> 01:24:57.132
<v SPEAKER_2>All he can do is destroy.

01:24:57.132 --> 01:25:08.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And so we see his actions in opposition to creation, and the Christian action should be in support, in celebration, in defense of the truth of creation, whatever it is.

01:25:08.132 --> 01:25:11.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And if the truth is that there are multiple races, that's how it is.

01:25:11.952 --> 01:25:12.932
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't get a vote.

01:25:13.512 --> 01:25:18.092
<v SPEAKER_2>The only decision that we have to make is are we going to lie, or are we going to tell the truth?

01:25:18.112 --> 01:25:21.832
<v SPEAKER_2>And Christians have only one choice on that menu.

01:25:21.832 --> 01:25:24.672
<v SPEAKER_2>As Corey said, the words that God chooses matter.

01:25:24.672 --> 01:25:26.732
<v SPEAKER_2>And these are very easy words to gloss over.

01:25:26.732 --> 01:25:31.452
<v SPEAKER_2>How many times have you read kind, especially the Old Testament, and not thought anything of it?

01:25:31.452 --> 01:25:34.892
<v SPEAKER_2>Go dig into the root words that are used in the original Greek.

01:25:34.892 --> 01:25:38.232
<v SPEAKER_2>You're going to find that this happens over and over again.

01:25:38.232 --> 01:25:39.652
<v SPEAKER_2>That's what God does.

01:25:40.412 --> 01:25:46.812
<v SPEAKER_2>And if we're going to draw conclusions from the text, sometimes these are the conclusions we need to draw.

01:25:46.812 --> 01:25:47.852
<v SPEAKER_2>This is not eisegesis.

01:25:47.852 --> 01:25:49.352
<v SPEAKER_2>We're not reading anything into it.

01:25:49.352 --> 01:25:54.792
<v SPEAKER_2>You're saying, oh, kindness is actually, it is in part racial.

01:25:54.792 --> 01:25:55.852
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's not exclusive.

01:25:55.852 --> 01:25:59.892
<v SPEAKER_2>It's say, I should treat you as well as I treat my own family.

01:25:59.892 --> 01:26:02.332
<v SPEAKER_2>And first of all, I should treat my family well.

01:26:02.332 --> 01:26:06.472
<v SPEAKER_2>If I'm not treating my own family well, I'm a horrible person.

01:26:06.472 --> 01:26:08.332
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that's not an excuse to treat you poorly.

01:26:08.452 --> 01:26:11.572
<v SPEAKER_2>I should treat my family well and then treat you as though you're family.

01:26:11.572 --> 01:26:13.192
<v SPEAKER_2>We call that hospitality.

01:26:13.192 --> 01:26:19.772
<v SPEAKER_2>But there's still those concentric circles that radiate outwards from the self to the distant.

01:26:19.772 --> 01:26:20.672
<v SPEAKER_2>And we're finite.

01:26:20.672 --> 01:26:22.912
<v SPEAKER_2>We're going to run out of resources.

01:26:22.912 --> 01:26:26.652
<v SPEAKER_2>You only have so much money you can donate to people and other places.

01:26:26.652 --> 01:26:29.232
<v SPEAKER_2>You need some for yourself and for your family.

01:26:29.232 --> 01:26:30.192
<v SPEAKER_2>We're finite.

01:26:30.212 --> 01:26:35.632
<v SPEAKER_2>And the lie that Satan tells us all now is, well, you don't have to worry about being finite.

01:26:35.632 --> 01:26:36.992
<v SPEAKER_2>You can do everything.

01:26:37.352 --> 01:26:41.992
<v SPEAKER_2>And those people way over there, you can't really do anything for, that's the most important.

01:26:41.992 --> 01:26:43.232
<v SPEAKER_2>Those are your kind.

01:26:43.232 --> 01:26:45.292
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not what scripture says.

01:26:46.372 --> 01:26:55.272
<v SPEAKER_2>The fact that all these things are rooted in us being made as man in the image of God is part of why our actions are consequential.

01:26:55.272 --> 01:26:59.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Our hands are God's hands in the world as Christians.

01:26:59.272 --> 01:27:04.312
<v SPEAKER_2>When we are not Christians, those who are not, their hands are functionally Satan's hands.

01:27:04.312 --> 01:27:07.112
<v SPEAKER_2>Even when they're doing good things, he can twist it.

01:27:07.132 --> 01:27:15.072
<v SPEAKER_2>And to whatever extent God influences them, it's not the same as those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

01:27:15.072 --> 01:27:30.412
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's particularly why the sanctified Christian life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes our sins that much more egregious because we're sinning against self, we're sinning against those around us, and we're doing that with God inside us.

01:27:30.412 --> 01:27:32.392
<v SPEAKER_2>That's why God can be driven out.

01:27:32.392 --> 01:27:34.352
<v SPEAKER_2>You can drive out the Holy Spirit with sin.

01:27:34.872 --> 01:27:37.052
<v SPEAKER_2>That's why those admonitions are given.

01:27:37.052 --> 01:27:38.772
<v SPEAKER_2>Apostasy is real.

01:27:38.772 --> 01:27:49.052
<v SPEAKER_2>The next verse that I want to touch on just briefly because it's one of the only places in Scripture that the image of God is directly tied to a command is when I said at the beginning, nobody likes.

01:27:49.052 --> 01:27:53.212
<v SPEAKER_2>The people who shout Imago Dei, they don't believe this next verse.

01:27:53.212 --> 01:27:57.412
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm going to read from the Bretons translation of the Septuagint here.

01:27:57.412 --> 01:28:05.052
<v SPEAKER_2>For your blood of your lives will I require at the hand of all wild beasts, and I will require the life of man at the hand of his brother, man.

01:28:05.052 --> 01:28:09.892
<v SPEAKER_2>He that sheds man's blood, instead of that blood shall his own blood be shed.

01:28:09.892 --> 01:28:12.832
<v SPEAKER_2>For in the image of God, I made man.

01:28:14.552 --> 01:28:25.632
<v SPEAKER_2>This is the one passage in scripture that explicitly has a command related to the image of God, and it is for capital punishment, saying it's not optional, it's not a policy choice.

01:28:25.632 --> 01:28:33.992
<v SPEAKER_2>If any man or any beast takes another man's life unjustly, that man's blood shall be shed by man.

01:28:33.992 --> 01:28:39.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Man must kill man, and it is not murder when he does so, if the first man has committed murder.

01:28:40.852 --> 01:28:43.672
<v SPEAKER_2>The guys who shout Imago Dei, they don't believe that.

01:28:43.672 --> 01:28:46.772
<v SPEAKER_2>In fact, they will actually use one of the principle arguments.

01:28:46.772 --> 01:28:49.232
<v SPEAKER_2>I think the Pope might have actually done this last week.

01:28:49.232 --> 01:28:51.932
<v SPEAKER_2>I really pay attention to the guy for obvious reasons.

01:28:51.932 --> 01:29:01.692
<v SPEAKER_2>But anytime, I think this did happen in the last couple of weeks, some mass-murdering piece of crap was justly executed by the state.

01:29:01.692 --> 01:29:06.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And people are saying, false Christians are saying, you can't execute a man.

01:29:06.252 --> 01:29:08.232
<v SPEAKER_2>He's made in the image of God.

01:29:08.232 --> 01:29:11.392
<v SPEAKER_2>It's literally verbatim the opposite of what scripture says.

01:29:11.392 --> 01:29:13.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Genesis 9, 5, and 6.

01:29:14.472 --> 01:29:19.532
<v SPEAKER_2>If a man kills another man, if he murders another man, man must kill him.

01:29:19.532 --> 01:29:20.812
<v SPEAKER_2>You want to talk about the image of God?

01:29:20.812 --> 01:29:23.812
<v SPEAKER_2>You want to take it seriously as a doctrinal precept?

01:29:24.392 --> 01:29:27.952
<v SPEAKER_2>If you want that to be a part of the discussion, okay.

01:29:27.952 --> 01:29:32.312
<v SPEAKER_2>Rule number one, every murderer must be executed, period.

01:29:32.312 --> 01:29:34.392
<v SPEAKER_2>Is that going to have a desperate impact racially?

01:29:34.392 --> 01:29:35.472
<v SPEAKER_2>You betcha.

01:29:35.472 --> 01:29:36.792
<v SPEAKER_2>Those people hate that.

01:29:36.792 --> 01:29:37.892
<v SPEAKER_2>That's when they say, well, they're not black.

01:29:37.892 --> 01:29:38.892
<v SPEAKER_2>They're made in the image of God.

01:29:38.892 --> 01:29:42.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, they're murdering people 120 times more frequently than white men.

01:29:42.532 --> 01:29:44.172
<v SPEAKER_2>Do we care?

01:29:44.172 --> 01:29:45.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Why do we talk about this stuff?

01:29:45.732 --> 01:29:49.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Because the very attacks on scripture are attacks on creation.

01:29:50.312 --> 01:29:53.292
<v SPEAKER_2>I agree with what scripture says about the image of God.

01:29:54.012 --> 01:29:58.392
<v SPEAKER_2>I agree that when a man murders a man, his blood must be shed by the hand of man.

01:29:58.392 --> 01:29:59.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Doesn't mean I do it.

01:29:59.572 --> 01:30:01.612
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't have the vocation of executioner.

01:30:01.612 --> 01:30:03.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Not really my thing.

01:30:03.072 --> 01:30:06.472
<v SPEAKER_2>But not squeamish about the fact that it has to be done.

01:30:06.472 --> 01:30:10.492
<v SPEAKER_2>And I would absolutely never speak against it because God commands it.

01:30:11.612 --> 01:30:26.372
<v SPEAKER_2>So, just note, when you see somebody else, somebody on social media talking about the image of God, I guarantee you, 95-98% of them are going to be rabidly against the death penalty.

01:30:26.372 --> 01:30:27.012
<v SPEAKER_2>Challenge them.

01:30:27.012 --> 01:30:28.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Calm out on that.

01:30:28.132 --> 01:30:29.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Genesis 9, 6.

01:30:29.452 --> 01:30:30.652
<v SPEAKER_2>Ask them to go deal with that.

01:30:30.652 --> 01:30:34.612
<v SPEAKER_2>The one passage that explicitly ties a command to the image of God.

01:30:34.612 --> 01:30:36.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Ask them to deal with that.

01:30:36.132 --> 01:30:37.412
<v SPEAKER_2>They just hate scripture.

01:30:37.412 --> 01:30:38.272
<v SPEAKER_2>They hate God.

01:30:38.892 --> 01:30:42.452
<v SPEAKER_2>The image of God is in scripture in several places as a command.

01:30:42.452 --> 01:30:43.592
<v SPEAKER_2>This is the most predominant.

01:30:43.592 --> 01:30:47.752
<v SPEAKER_2>There's another passage in James that's tied to speech.

01:30:47.752 --> 01:30:53.972
<v SPEAKER_2>But what we have to deal with is that when God talks about it, He says something that we don't hear people talking about.

01:30:53.972 --> 01:30:58.912
<v SPEAKER_2>I think we'll put the image in the show notes of the frequency with which those terms are used.

01:30:58.912 --> 01:31:06.652
<v SPEAKER_2>When you look at how often the image of God or Imago Dei is used in the corpus of literature, it basically blows up in this century.

01:31:06.652 --> 01:31:08.072
<v SPEAKER_2>It was barely used previously.

01:31:08.652 --> 01:31:17.252
<v SPEAKER_2>So those Jesus-y sounding Latin words, these technical terms that everybody throws around and everyone else nods sagely, yes, this is very important.

01:31:17.272 --> 01:31:19.632
<v SPEAKER_2>A, they don't believe what scripture says.

01:31:19.632 --> 01:31:21.432
<v SPEAKER_2>They don't believe Genesis 9, 6.

01:31:21.432 --> 01:31:26.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And B, Christians have not talked about these things in the past the way they are.

01:31:26.092 --> 01:31:27.212
<v SPEAKER_2>They have talked about the image of God.

01:31:27.212 --> 01:31:28.552
<v SPEAKER_2>It's nothing new.

01:31:28.552 --> 01:31:31.992
<v SPEAKER_2>But the emphasis is anti-Christian.

01:31:31.992 --> 01:31:35.352
<v SPEAKER_2>The emphasis, as they emphasize it, is satanic.

01:31:35.352 --> 01:31:37.052
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the reason we're doing a couple episodes on this.

01:31:37.472 --> 01:31:44.732
<v SPEAKER_2>There is vital Christian doctrine to emphasize, but it's actually the exact opposite of what these people are saying.

01:31:44.732 --> 01:32:01.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Genesis 9, 6 is probably one of the best examples to highlight just how cynical and hypocritical virtually all of those appealing to the image of God are in our day and age.

01:32:01.252 --> 01:32:13.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Because as I've said before, as Woe was just saying, most of those using the term, and particularly the Latin, immago Dei, are using it to deceive you.

01:32:13.252 --> 01:32:15.572
<v SPEAKER_1>They are cynically attempting to manipulate you.

01:32:15.572 --> 01:32:18.192
<v SPEAKER_1>It's the meme, basically.

01:32:18.192 --> 01:32:27.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, of course, I don't believe it, but you, I can get you to do something because I can manipulate you into doing it because you're a Christian.

01:32:27.532 --> 01:32:32.152
<v SPEAKER_1>And so Christ would never, Christ would, if you were a real Christian, you would.

01:32:33.792 --> 01:32:39.572
<v SPEAKER_1>Those words almost always issue from the mouth of someone who is particularly wicked.

01:32:39.572 --> 01:32:50.212
<v SPEAKER_1>It's someone who doesn't believe a single word of scripture, but is willing to find bits and pieces here and there to attempt to manipulate you to do what he wants you to do.

01:32:51.352 --> 01:33:07.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And you can very easily discern whether you're dealing with someone who is genuine or not with Genesis 9, 6, because an actual Christian will affirm the death penalty, period.

01:33:08.712 --> 01:33:23.792
<v SPEAKER_1>You're going to have some people who try to make all sorts of excuses of, well, it has a disparate racial impact, or you have juries that are biased, you have judges that are biased, it's been used historically in this, that, or the other.

01:33:24.552 --> 01:33:44.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Leaving aside the fact that those arguments are all crap, not one of them is sound when you actually analyze the data, but leaving that aside, someone who cannot simply affirm the death penalty is no Christian.

01:33:45.112 --> 01:33:48.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Because this is a direct command from God.

01:33:48.952 --> 01:33:55.732
<v SPEAKER_1>If you reject this direct command from God, you are rejecting God.

01:33:55.732 --> 01:34:06.032
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is exactly what is being done by those who oppose capital punishment, particularly when they do it on the basis of the image of God.

01:34:06.032 --> 01:34:09.392
<v SPEAKER_1>They're not really attacking capital punishment.

01:34:09.392 --> 01:34:11.692
<v SPEAKER_1>They're attacking God.

01:34:11.692 --> 01:34:13.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And they're attacking God in two ways.

01:34:14.652 --> 01:34:20.672
<v SPEAKER_1>One, I have already highlighted, they're attacking God by saying, his word isn't true and isn't binding.

01:34:20.672 --> 01:34:23.792
<v SPEAKER_1>And two, they're accusing God of sin.

01:34:24.832 --> 01:34:43.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Because when you say, you cannot kill that which is made in the image of God, obviously, bear in mind, I'm saying kill, that has a specific meaning that is distinct from murder, because of course, Genesis 9, 6 commands us to kill those who murder.

01:34:45.272 --> 01:34:57.932
<v SPEAKER_1>But when you say that you cannot kill that which is made in the image of God, you are accusing God of sin, because no one has killed more people than God.

01:34:59.112 --> 01:35:00.852
<v SPEAKER_1>No one ever will.

01:35:00.852 --> 01:35:03.272
<v SPEAKER_1>No one will even come close.

01:35:03.272 --> 01:35:13.692
<v SPEAKER_1>And not only that, God is going to kill most human beings eternally, because hell is eternal death.

01:35:13.692 --> 01:35:16.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not just eternal suffering, it is eternal death.

01:35:17.952 --> 01:35:36.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And so if you say that you cannot kill that which is made in the image of God, because it's wrong and it's sinful and it's not something that's permissible and blah, blah, blah, you're saying that what God did with the antediluvians, when he destroyed them in the flood, you're saying that was sin.

01:35:37.792 --> 01:35:43.972
<v SPEAKER_1>You're saying it was sin when God killed all of the faithless Israelites in the desert.

01:35:43.972 --> 01:35:48.952
<v SPEAKER_1>You're saying it's sin when God used the earth to swallow up Abiram.

01:35:48.952 --> 01:35:57.412
<v SPEAKER_1>All of these instances where God killed men, you're saying what he did was wrong, and I'm so much more moral than God.

01:35:57.412 --> 01:36:01.932
<v SPEAKER_1>I know that this is wrong and he shouldn't have killed them because they're made.

01:36:01.932 --> 01:36:04.652
<v SPEAKER_1>You can see the problem with the logic here.

01:36:04.652 --> 01:36:08.112
<v SPEAKER_1>They're made in his image, and you're saying what he did is wrong.

01:36:09.432 --> 01:36:17.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And so you have that two-fold, that two-front attack led by Satan, of course, because it always is on God.

01:36:17.892 --> 01:36:23.752
<v SPEAKER_1>That is almost always what is being done when someone uses imago dei in modern discourse.

01:36:23.752 --> 01:36:27.312
<v SPEAKER_1>It's one of the reasons we're doing this series of episodes.

01:36:29.572 --> 01:36:38.752
<v SPEAKER_1>Because there are very few Christians speaking on this issue in a truthful manner, let alone in a coherent manner that is also truthful.

01:36:39.992 --> 01:36:43.432
<v SPEAKER_1>This is one of those things in scripture.

01:36:43.432 --> 01:36:45.492
<v SPEAKER_1>It's an important topic.

01:36:46.612 --> 01:36:52.252
<v SPEAKER_1>But I don't know that we'd necessarily say it's a central one to scripture.

01:36:52.252 --> 01:37:05.592
<v SPEAKER_1>It is centrally important in terms of its position, because it is foundational with regard to what man is, and with regard to man's relationship to God, to other men, to creation.

01:37:05.592 --> 01:37:11.272
<v SPEAKER_1>But certainly, historically, it was not something that was really in contention.

01:37:11.272 --> 01:37:20.612
<v SPEAKER_1>You have church fathers and others who wrote about it, and they attempted to discern sort of the nuances and the contours and the specifics.

01:37:20.612 --> 01:37:24.172
<v SPEAKER_1>But it wasn't something over which Christians fought.

01:37:24.172 --> 01:37:35.052
<v SPEAKER_1>There wasn't much in the way of contention with regard to the image of God, because everyone agreed, all of mankind is made in the image of God.

01:37:35.052 --> 01:37:37.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Scripture clearly says that.

01:37:37.012 --> 01:37:44.272
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to execute murderers, because God says you have to do that, because man is made in the image of God.

01:37:44.272 --> 01:37:48.932
<v SPEAKER_1>But beyond that, you didn't have people using the term to mislead.

01:37:48.932 --> 01:37:55.992
<v SPEAKER_1>You didn't have them using the words of God to attempt to undermine the words of God.

01:37:55.992 --> 01:38:02.412
<v SPEAKER_1>And that should certainly sound similar to you, because that's something that Satan does all the time.

01:38:02.412 --> 01:38:05.572
<v SPEAKER_1>That's one of his favorite avenues of attack.

01:38:05.572 --> 01:38:19.292
<v SPEAKER_1>If Satan can use some part of scripture to get you to deny some other part of scripture, that's a great victory for him, because what he's done is he's got you to deny scripture twice.

01:38:20.392 --> 01:38:30.132
<v SPEAKER_1>He's managed to get you so turned around and confused that you get multiple sections, probably many sections, of scripture wrong.

01:38:30.132 --> 01:38:32.032
<v SPEAKER_1>His goal is to undermine your faith.

01:38:32.032 --> 01:38:40.932
<v SPEAKER_1>His goal is to drag God's word into question in your mind, so that you begin to doubt and will fall away.

01:38:40.932 --> 01:38:42.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Don't play that game.

01:38:42.972 --> 01:38:46.972
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't pit one part of scripture against another part of scripture.

01:38:46.972 --> 01:38:48.912
<v SPEAKER_1>All of it hangs together.

01:38:48.912 --> 01:38:51.392
<v SPEAKER_1>All of it is coherent.

01:38:51.392 --> 01:38:55.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Every single word of it is important to believe for the Christian.

01:38:56.092 --> 01:39:03.152
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not to say they're all equal, because as we've said many times before, some parts of scripture are more important than others.

01:39:03.152 --> 01:39:12.152
<v SPEAKER_1>The specific parts that tell us exactly what the gospel is are more important than the various lists of men in the Old Testament.

01:39:12.152 --> 01:39:16.252
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not saying the genealogy specifically here, although it's more important than those as well.

01:39:16.252 --> 01:39:20.012
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm saying it's more important than the military muster.

01:39:20.012 --> 01:39:22.452
<v SPEAKER_1>Those verses are not as important as the gospel.

01:39:22.452 --> 01:39:23.892
<v SPEAKER_1>It's fine to say that as a Christian.

01:39:24.632 --> 01:39:31.372
<v SPEAKER_1>It's fine to say that certain books of the Bible are weightier than others in various ways.

01:39:31.372 --> 01:39:36.192
<v SPEAKER_1>Because again, with regard to the gospel, some of them lay it out very clearly.

01:39:36.192 --> 01:39:39.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Those books are of more value to the church.

01:39:39.172 --> 01:39:42.192
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not to say that any part of God's word is worthless.

01:39:42.192 --> 01:39:48.872
<v SPEAKER_1>It is to recognize the reality of what he wrote, how he wrote it, and how he uses it.

01:39:48.872 --> 01:39:54.072
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot pit any part of scripture against other parts that is worth repeating.

01:39:55.252 --> 01:39:58.572
<v SPEAKER_1>Because everything God has said is coherent.

01:39:58.572 --> 01:40:04.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything God has said agrees with everything else God has said, because God is unchanging.

01:40:04.472 --> 01:40:12.152
<v SPEAKER_1>To attribute contradiction or incoherence to God is to deny the nature of God, is to deny God.

01:40:12.152 --> 01:40:33.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And so those who would pit the image of God, which is clearly in scripture, against this command of God, which is based explicitly on the image of God, they want you to misunderstand what it means to be in the image of God, and they want you to deny the clear word of God.

01:40:34.272 --> 01:40:40.412
<v SPEAKER_1>Because this is one of those verses that is entirely clear.

01:40:40.412 --> 01:40:42.652
<v SPEAKER_1>There is no interpretation here.

01:40:42.652 --> 01:40:44.672
<v SPEAKER_1>There is no confusion here.

01:40:44.672 --> 01:40:47.472
<v SPEAKER_1>There isn't even nuance here.

01:40:47.472 --> 01:40:49.352
<v SPEAKER_1>This is incredibly straightforward.

01:40:49.412 --> 01:40:50.712
<v SPEAKER_1>This is blunt.

01:40:52.412 --> 01:40:55.812
<v SPEAKER_1>If you commit murder, you must die.

01:40:56.952 --> 01:41:01.812
<v SPEAKER_1>That is a direct command from God in unambiguous terms.

01:41:01.812 --> 01:41:03.972
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, as Christians, we cannot deny it.

01:41:03.972 --> 01:41:08.172
<v SPEAKER_1>We cannot be against the death penalty.

01:41:08.172 --> 01:41:23.632
<v SPEAKER_1>And if you want to ask someone this question, he keeps trying to prevaricate or attempting to get around it or explain it away or just drown you in words, just ask the straightforward, blunt question.

01:41:23.632 --> 01:41:34.872
<v SPEAKER_1>In a vacuum, before a perfect judge, would you support the application of the death penalty for someone guilty of first-degree murder?

01:41:34.872 --> 01:41:37.792
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the clearest example you can possibly give.

01:41:37.792 --> 01:41:40.212
<v SPEAKER_1>Every Christian must say yes.

01:41:41.932 --> 01:41:46.192
<v SPEAKER_1>With no equivocation, no explanation necessary.

01:41:46.192 --> 01:41:49.872
<v SPEAKER_1>Simply, yes, I support it because God commands it.

01:41:49.872 --> 01:41:54.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Because morality commands it, because of course, morality flows from God.

01:41:54.152 --> 01:41:59.612
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot say no to that without denying the word of God.

01:41:59.612 --> 01:42:03.912
<v SPEAKER_1>And God grounds this command in the concept of the image of God.

01:42:03.912 --> 01:42:08.632
<v SPEAKER_1>He grounds it in the fact that man is made in the image of God.

01:42:09.672 --> 01:42:18.512
<v SPEAKER_1>Not only is man the pinnacle of creation, which of course he is, but he is also the very image of God in creation.

01:42:18.512 --> 01:42:21.672
<v SPEAKER_1>We represent God in creation.

01:42:21.672 --> 01:42:24.892
<v SPEAKER_1>We are his icon in creation.

01:42:24.892 --> 01:42:29.172
<v SPEAKER_1>That is the ultimate role of man.

01:42:29.172 --> 01:42:35.452
<v SPEAKER_1>We are given dominion over everything because we image God in creation.

01:42:38.032 --> 01:42:42.752
<v SPEAKER_1>And so this is the foundation of discussing the image of God.

01:42:42.752 --> 01:42:50.092
<v SPEAKER_1>We will get into more of the specifics next week when we discuss sanctification and some related matters.

01:42:50.092 --> 01:42:59.332
<v SPEAKER_1>But foundationally and fundamentally, we have to recognize the nature of an image, of an idol, of a symbol.

01:42:59.332 --> 01:43:04.472
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to recognize what it means for man to be an image of God.

01:43:05.592 --> 01:43:11.872
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't recognize what it means to be an image of God if you don't know what an image is.

01:43:11.872 --> 01:43:18.592
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't understand the condemnations in scripture of idolatry if you don't know what an idol is.

01:43:18.592 --> 01:43:26.112
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't understand the symbolism and the use of symbols in scripture if you don't even know what a symbol is.

01:43:26.112 --> 01:43:32.692
<v SPEAKER_1>That is the reason we spent an entire episode explaining these concepts and going into it relatively in depth.

01:43:33.952 --> 01:43:49.612
<v SPEAKER_1>These are fundamentally important things for the Christian faith, not just for the Christian to understand them, but also to recognize when Satan and his minions are attacking them, because often they'll attack these in ways that are relatively subtle.

01:43:49.612 --> 01:44:14.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And if you do not understand the underlying concepts, if you do not understand how these parts hold together, if you don't understand the machinery of what is being done in the Word of God, how these concepts hang together, what God is actually saying when he uses these words, then you will not know how to refute the arguments of Satan and his sons.

01:44:14.332 --> 01:44:17.152
<v SPEAKER_1>You won't even recognize them.

01:44:17.152 --> 01:44:23.152
<v SPEAKER_1>That's one of the reasons that Satan has been so successful in the past century or so.

01:44:23.152 --> 01:44:51.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Christians have not so much failed to refute his arguments, as failed even to recognize that he is making them, failed to recognize that he is subverting everything in society by slowly but surely, in a creeping fashion, like the snake that he is, inch by inch, taking over different parts of society, different parts of our culture, different parts of civilization.

01:44:51.112 --> 01:44:59.092
<v SPEAKER_1>He's eroding here, changing there, amending here, but slowly but surely, he is making headway.

01:44:59.912 --> 01:45:18.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And if we don't recognize what he is attacking, because we don't even recognize the reality of the subject matter, we don't even understand what God has said about the matters, then we cannot refute what he is doing, because we cannot even recognize that he is doing it.

01:45:18.572 --> 01:45:33.412
<v SPEAKER_1>This is one of the reasons we see so many Christian pastors and teachers are utterly useless in the fight that is currently happening, because they are off somewhere else, defending something that Satan is not attacking.

01:45:33.412 --> 01:45:42.932
<v SPEAKER_1>And then when it comes to addressing the area, the subject matter, the topic that Satan actually is attacking, they don't understand it.

01:45:42.932 --> 01:45:52.472
<v SPEAKER_1>And in failing to understand it, they fail to recognize that what Satan is doing is slowly but surely making headway.

01:45:54.032 --> 01:45:59.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And then they attack those men who stand up and actually say what God is saying.

01:45:59.072 --> 01:46:07.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Because ultimately, what we're doing on this podcast, what every faithful teacher should do, is echo the words of God after him.

01:46:07.332 --> 01:46:12.672
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's why we tell you, compare whatever we say to the word of God.

01:46:12.672 --> 01:46:15.732
<v SPEAKER_1>Do not just believe us because we've said it.

01:46:15.732 --> 01:46:26.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, of course, there is some sort of trust that you develop with a faithful teacher, with someone who has proven true over a course of many hours or years.

01:46:26.392 --> 01:46:28.532
<v SPEAKER_1>It's now been years for this podcast.

01:46:29.832 --> 01:46:32.392
<v SPEAKER_1>There is some trust that develops.

01:46:32.392 --> 01:46:46.252
<v SPEAKER_1>But, as we have said in other episodes, even faithful teachers can fall into error or can start to teach falsely where once they taught truthfully.

01:46:46.252 --> 01:46:50.452
<v SPEAKER_1>And so compare what any teacher says to the word of God.

01:46:50.452 --> 01:46:52.572
<v SPEAKER_1>That includes us.

01:46:52.572 --> 01:46:59.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Whatever we have said will be consonant with the word of God and with reality.

01:46:59.672 --> 01:47:03.212
<v SPEAKER_1>We always endeavor to make certain that that is the case.

01:47:03.212 --> 01:47:08.152
<v SPEAKER_1>We subject our own arguments to the word of God, and we invite you to do the same.

01:47:08.152 --> 01:47:13.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And certainly we encourage you to do the same with any other teacher.

01:47:13.192 --> 01:47:17.932
<v SPEAKER_1>It isn't that we are correct because we are who we are.

01:47:17.932 --> 01:47:22.072
<v SPEAKER_1>We are correct because what we are saying is true.

01:47:23.272 --> 01:47:24.672
<v SPEAKER_1>That is why these things matter.

01:47:25.272 --> 01:47:28.032
<v SPEAKER_1>That is why it matters how we approach them.

01:47:28.032 --> 01:47:31.652
<v SPEAKER_1>That is why we approach them in the way that we do.

01:47:32.792 --> 01:47:35.112
<v SPEAKER_1>All of these things are interconnected.

01:47:35.112 --> 01:47:36.892
<v SPEAKER_1>All of them hang together.

01:47:36.892 --> 01:47:47.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's why we keep saying you cannot get any part of this wrong, because anywhere you submit to error, that is where Satan enters in.

01:47:47.312 --> 01:47:49.172
<v SPEAKER_1>That's his entry point.

01:47:49.172 --> 01:47:54.612
<v SPEAKER_1>That is where he is going to stick his little snake head in, and the rest of the body will follow.

01:47:55.692 --> 01:47:58.392
<v SPEAKER_1>So you have to get these matters right.

01:47:58.392 --> 01:48:02.132
<v SPEAKER_1>That is why we took the time to lay the foundation.

01:48:02.132 --> 01:48:11.792
<v SPEAKER_1>You may have noticed that we didn't speak at any great length in this episode about some of the specifics, we might call them, of the nature of the image of God.

01:48:11.792 --> 01:48:14.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is because we had to lay the foundation.

01:48:14.892 --> 01:48:23.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Any structure that is going to withstand the test of time, the elements, whatever it happens to be, has to have a solid foundation.

01:48:25.192 --> 01:48:29.332
<v SPEAKER_1>You should be thinking of a certain parable in scripture right now.

01:48:29.332 --> 01:48:31.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And so we've laid the foundation.

01:48:31.512 --> 01:48:44.272
<v SPEAKER_1>In the next episode, we will go into more of the specifics, and how the image of God relates to the various parts of man, and by parts I mean that tripartite nature, body, mind, and soul.

01:48:44.272 --> 01:48:51.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Because each of those is made in the image of God, but not in the same way, because they are not the same thing.

01:48:51.292 --> 01:48:53.372
<v SPEAKER_1>They are distinct one from another.

01:48:54.032 --> 01:49:01.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, man is the Gestalt, the greater than the sum of the parts, but man is still each of those.

01:49:01.992 --> 01:49:10.092
<v SPEAKER_1>You are your body, you are your mind, you are your soul, and each of those is made in the image of God.

01:49:10.092 --> 01:49:19.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is true of every single man and every single woman, ever born, now living, ever to be born.

01:49:21.412 --> 01:49:31.392
<v SPEAKER_1>And part of being an image of God is, in fact, imaging God in creation, which is what we should endeavor to do.

01:49:31.392 --> 01:49:47.172
<v SPEAKER_1>And part of the way that we do that, one of the most fundamental ways in which we do that, is believing the truth and speaking the truth, and refusing absolutely to yield to lies, particularly when they are about the things of God.