Transcript: Episode 0089

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<v SPEAKER_2>Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I am Corey J.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Mahler.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And I'm still, whoa.

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<v SPEAKER_1>On today's Stone Choir, we're going to be discussing loyalty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Few weeks ago, we did an episode on honor and betrayal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It was really functionally about betrayal and various ways that treason either occurs or isn't present.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Last week, we did an episode on honor and shame.

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<v SPEAKER_1>This week is really going to be about honor and loyalty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And in some ways, betrayal and loyalty are really opposite directions of the same coin.

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<v SPEAKER_1>What we're doing this week is nothing that has anything to do with binding consciences.

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<v SPEAKER_1>This is basically a get out of jail free card.

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<v SPEAKER_1>This is a permission slip.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We're going to focus specifically on all the places where there is no duty of loyalty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Because that's really important too.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We understand as honest, decent men that loyalty is an important thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You should be loyal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like that's a compliment to say that someone is loyal about anything.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And it's not an abuse of the word to sort of use it casually.

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<v SPEAKER_1>To say you're a loyal listener of Stone Choir, or you're a loyal customer of wherever you buy your bread.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's perfectly fine.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The distinction that we're making today is, it's really kind of an ontological one.

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<v SPEAKER_1>There are specific natural conditions where there is a duty to loyalty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And absent those conditions, there's no duty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so even though there are things that we call loyalty, like listening to whatever podcast as a loyal listener, doesn't mean there's any duty to do so.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You are free to stop listening at any time and you're not disloyal for doing so.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If your favorite shopping center, suddenly they mess up the parking lot and you can never find a spot or you always get dinged or something, you can shop somewhere else and you're not disloyal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So it just doesn't apply.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And that's the reason we're doing this episode, because there's a lot of discussion, especially as men are looking at the institutions that they've trusted in the past, men that they've trusted in the past, as leaders, as guys who have good ideas that seem to be pointing the way correctly.

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<v SPEAKER_1>There's usually some notion that I should be loyal to that guy.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I should be loyal to this group, to this institution, to this brand, whatever it is.

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<v SPEAKER_1>What we want to get across today is that simply does not apply.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I don't ever want to hear someone say, I'm loyal to Stone Choir.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's not a thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's a podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's a show.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The second that we say something that's stupid, you have no duty to agree with it.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You're not disloyal if you don't.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Now, it's our duty as someone who's trying to influence people, not to get things wrong, but our duty is fundamentally to God.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We feel like we have a duty to our listeners.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's not that we're casual, but no one has a duty to listen or not listen or anything.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It just doesn't apply.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's a completely separate realm of concept, which is why it was funny when we picked the subject over the weekend and I went back and looked, I saw that we had recently done honor and betrayal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And I thought, am I having a brain fart?

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<v SPEAKER_1>Did we already talk about loyalty?

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<v SPEAKER_1>And I forgot.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Yesterday, I re-listened to the entire betrayal episode to make sure that I wasn't just losing my mind.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And thankfully, that entire episode is really about betrayal and when that applies or doesn't apply.

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<v SPEAKER_1>When we're talking about when man has some sort of actual affirmative duty to be loyal, obviously the flip side of that is betrayal, but there are lots of places, including very important places, where you don't have a duty to be loyal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You might be described as being loyal, but you don't have a duty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so, not to beat a dead horse, but it's really important to understand this distinction.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's fine for you to be loyal to whatever you like, understanding that that's an expression of preference or affinity.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I think some of the best examples are things like your church denomination, or even perhaps your congregation.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You should be a loyal member of your congregation, but your loyalty there is to God.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You have a community with those people, but if the deal changes, if the doctrine changes, if there's something that you find impermissible that you find to be intolerable, you're not being disloyal by going somewhere else.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You're not being disloyal by saying, this thing that I once dearly loved is not the thing that I loved anymore.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so it's important to acknowledge that because we're always going to have a sense that we're being disloyal if we went down one path and realized it doesn't work anymore.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like you said, this is a permission slip for you to narrowly define the places where you have a duty to be loyal and to freely set aside the rest, which is not to say be fickle in the slightest.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that you don't have a duty to loyalty in no way suggests that you become mercurial, that just at the drop of a hat, like, okay, I'm out of here, I don't like this anymore.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's childish and immature and unstable.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's not healthy.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We're certainly not encouraging that.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Again, when you focus specifically on duty, which is a part of honor, so I think we'll probably title this episode, Honor and Loyalty, just because it's turned out that we were inadvertently doing kind of an honor series, with different facets of either positive duties or things that are kind of excluded from what is an obligation.

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<v SPEAKER_1>When you realize that you don't have to be loyal to something where the rules have changed, where the nature of the thing has changed, you are free to make intelligent, honorable decisions about what you do next as a man.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And again, I point to listening to Stone Choir because it's such a trivial case.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's just a podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's the least interesting thing I can give as an example.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so I think it's a really good one, because it draws the floor for like, no one can ever say you're disloyal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's stupid.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's not even a thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And yeah, it's fine to say that you loyally listen every week.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We appreciate those who do.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Incidentally, if you do, please leave a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We're getting brigaded lately by people who hate us.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If you like to help, only about three or four percent of our audience is actually lefterating.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Chip in.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If you want to be a loyal listener, give us five stars.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You don't have to say anything.

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<v SPEAKER_1>But if you don't, you're not disloyal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like, that's a request.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It means nothing if someone doesn't want to do it.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That distinction is crucial as we're looking at all these things in our lives.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And again, you know, church is on a lot of people's minds.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Politics is another thing.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like, all these areas where human beings are interacting, where we have elements of social cohesion, where we have organizations that are erected for specific purposes, it's fine to say, I'm loyal to whatever organization to the extent that they continue to fulfill their duty.

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<v SPEAKER_1>As soon as they stop doing faithfully the thing that they were established for, you don't have to be loyal to them anymore.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Now, again, that doesn't mean you just pop smoke and vanish.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, if you were loyal to the purpose for which an organization was created, and it's important to manifest that loyalty, that loyal intention by sticking with it.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Like try to right the ship.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, the second one thing goes wrong, you don't just say, I'm out of here.

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<v SPEAKER_1>This is stupid.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I'm done.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You try to fix it.

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<v SPEAKER_1>If it was worth being a part of, it was worth fighting for and working on, it's worth defending even when things are starting to go awry.

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<v SPEAKER_1>At some point, many things, it's like, you know what?

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<v SPEAKER_1>Sometimes a house just becomes a teardown.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, maybe maintenance was deferred.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's the euphemism, deferred maintenance.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe things have just been let go for so long.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The only way to remediate the situation is to tear the thing down, or maybe just to tear it down to the studs, and everything else has to go because it can't be repaired.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The notion of loyalty has to be very carefully guarded when we're making it a rule.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's fine for it to be a principle.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's an honorable principle for men to be loyal to things that they like and have an affinity for, but it cannot become a moral rule, except in the few narrow cases we're going to talk about today where we have a positive obligation to do so.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The rest of the time is just an expression of preference.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And so today in this, what's probably going to be a very short episode, we'll see.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You can see the runtime.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want this to be too long.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You know, initially we started Stone Choir.

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<v SPEAKER_1>We were thinking episodes would be about an hour, and it turned out that almost all of them are two hours, but largely that's because we bite off topics that typically take that long.

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<v SPEAKER_1>So if this runs a lot shorter, that's fine, we're not short changing you.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Because like I said, we've touched on different aspects of this loyalty bundle of ideas.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And today we're just carving out the one portion that's a permission slip.

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<v SPEAKER_1>There's a whole bunch of stuff, almost everything in your life, you don't actually have to be loyal to in a rote sense.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's good to have affinity.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It is not good to feel morally bound to something that's going down the tubes because it's no longer what you thought it was in the first place.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So, as Woe said, loyalty and honor are very closely related concepts, but they are not identical.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And the reason they aren't identical is that loyalty is part of honor, but it is not the totality of it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But to speak specifically on the issue of loyalty, and as Woe mentioned, there are certain entities to whom, to which you owe undisputed and unconditional loyalty.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There are really only two of them.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That would be God and your nation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You owe God unconditional loyalty, period.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In the case of God, this is very easy, because God does not change.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so, the consideration or the set of considerations, when it comes to other entities, so, say, your employer or your country, those can change.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so, that duty of loyalty is absent.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It does not exist in those cases, because the entity itself can change.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Again, God does not change.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That consideration is not present in the case of God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Your nation also really does not change.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Your nation is something to which you owe loyalty, period.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So, even if your nation really betrays you, treats you very poorly, that does not entitle you to go over to the enemy and betray your nation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You would still, in fact, be a traitor in that case.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But with virtually everything else, there are some conditions.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The loyalty owed is conditional, or really entirely absent in some cases.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not a matter of loyalty, except in the sort of minor sense of, you prefer this kind of bread, or this is your favorite restaurant, and so you're a loyal customer.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not wrong to say you're a loyal customer, as Woe was saying, but it is loyalty used in a different sense.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so, a rank below God and nation, as it were, would be your spouse and your family.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You do owe a very strong kind of loyalty to your spouse and to your family.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But it is not entirely unconditional, because as Scripture says, you can divorce your spouse for infidelity.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So there is at least one condition there.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And of course, there's the issue of betrayal and such.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But by and large, you owe a duty of loyalty to your spouse and to your family, with that sort of narrow exception, when there's a serious betrayal by the other party, by the other side.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And then the step below that would basically be everything else.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do you owe a duty of loyalty to your employer?

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<v SPEAKER_2>To some degree, yes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But is it the same as what you owe to your family or your nation?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely not.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And can that duty of loyalty, that minor duty of loyalty, be destroyed?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Very much so.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If your employer changes the nature of the relationship, the terms of your employment, it may very well destroy whatever minor duty you have.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Because of course, you're still not permitted to just betray your employer.

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<v SPEAKER_2>In some cases, as we mentioned in a previous episode, that used to be a petty form, a minor form of treason under certain circumstances.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The more obvious case of that would be your country or your king.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Do you owe a duty of loyalty?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Is it unconditional?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely not.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And we will get into that more in a future episode.

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<v SPEAKER_2>As we've said previously, we will eventually go over the Magdeburg Confession, which deals with that loyalty that is owed, and sort of the scope of it, the limits of it, with regard to country or with regard to king.

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<v SPEAKER_2>One way that you can sort of think about this is that you essentially don't owe a duty of loyalty, in the unconditional or the strong sense, to any sort of corporate entity.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Your employer is a corporate entity.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Your church, insofar as it is, you know, a corporation, a separate entity from just the people, you don't owe the same sort of loyalty to that, that you would owe to, again, your family, or your nation, or certainly to God.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Now, we should draw a distinction, though, between the individuals, the men, women, and children who make up your congregation and the congregation itself.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If the congregation goes astray, if the congregation adopts and starts to teach false doctrine, you do not have a duty of loyalty to stay in that congregation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, you should probably fight for it and try to overturn those errors to return them to the true path.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But you do not have a duty of loyalty to that congregation, to that corporate entity itself.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You have a duty of loyalty still to the members of the congregation.

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<v SPEAKER_2>So you should tell them that they are going down a false path, that they need to turn from that error.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But you, again, do not have a duty to stay in that congregation, because the terms have changed.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The thing itself, to which you had some kind of loyalty at one point, has changed.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That is equivalent to, say, the case of your favorite restaurant.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If your favorite restaurant stops making the food that you like, say, your favorite restaurant is an Italian place, and suddenly one day they start making only sushi.

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<v SPEAKER_2>If you don't like sushi, you have no duty to keep going to that restaurant.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Even if they continue making your favorite food, you don't actually have a duty, you don't have a duty of loyalty to continue going to that restaurant, to continue patronizing that restaurant.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It is a fundamentally different thing.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You can be a loyal customer, and perhaps even in some cases, and to some degree, that's an admirable thing.

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<v SPEAKER_2>There's something to be said for consistency, for being sort of a stalwart part of your local economy, of your town, of your city, but it is not a loyalty that is owed.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so it's important to assess these sorts of relationships and what kind of relationship any given connection is.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And so we all recognize this to some degree, because we all know that you owe your spouse a duty of loyalty, and that is distinct from what you owe to a friend.

00:15:59.452 --> 00:16:02.452
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you owe loyalty to certainly a long time friend?

00:16:02.452 --> 00:16:03.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Of course.

00:16:03.532 --> 00:16:05.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it different from what you owe to your spouse?

00:16:05.732 --> 00:16:06.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:16:06.472 --> 00:16:08.332
<v SPEAKER_2>Is that different from what you owe to God?

00:16:08.332 --> 00:16:09.512
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:16:09.512 --> 00:16:22.472
<v SPEAKER_2>So if someone tries to argue, or tries to guilt or shame you into doing something because they say you're being disloyal, assess the kind of relationship that is in question.

00:16:22.472 --> 00:16:26.612
<v SPEAKER_2>Is this the sort of relationship to which you owe a duty of loyalty?

00:16:26.612 --> 00:16:29.892
<v SPEAKER_2>And if so, what kind of duty of loyalty is it?

00:16:29.892 --> 00:16:34.272
<v SPEAKER_2>Because they are not univocal, they are not equivalent.

00:16:34.272 --> 00:16:41.492
<v SPEAKER_2>There are different kinds, different types of loyalty that are owed to various different kinds of relationships.

00:16:43.232 --> 00:16:58.332
<v SPEAKER_2>So, don't let someone just bully you into remaining loyal by using that term, because it may very well be that there is no duty of loyalty, or the duty of loyalty no longer exists because of what the other party has done.

00:16:59.432 --> 00:17:14.952
<v SPEAKER_1>I looked up the etymology of loyal because I realized that I had no idea, and found it very interesting that loyal comes into English through old French, and it was originally derived from the Latin word that we get legal from.

00:17:14.952 --> 00:17:20.792
<v SPEAKER_1>So, loyal and legal, originally, like etymologically, the root is basically the same thing.

00:17:20.792 --> 00:17:23.132
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's pretty much what we're saying here today.

00:17:23.132 --> 00:17:30.132
<v SPEAKER_1>When you very narrowly talk about a duty of loyalty, you're talking about what is effectively a legal obligation.

00:17:30.132 --> 00:17:35.012
<v SPEAKER_1>So, loyal-legal is the same kind of pair as royal and regal.

00:17:35.012 --> 00:17:38.472
<v SPEAKER_1>They work the same way in terms of how they came into the English language.

00:17:39.472 --> 00:17:42.112
<v SPEAKER_1>I think we kind of intrinsically understand this to this day.

00:17:42.112 --> 00:17:50.032
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, one of the most typical examples of using loyal in a sentence would be, he was a loyal subject of the crown.

00:17:50.032 --> 00:17:53.992
<v SPEAKER_1>You've heard that on many period pieces for years.

00:17:53.992 --> 00:17:55.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Loyal subject of the crown.

00:17:55.992 --> 00:18:00.052
<v SPEAKER_1>The subject of the crown is really the binding key there.

00:18:00.052 --> 00:18:01.072
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the duty.

00:18:01.072 --> 00:18:03.252
<v SPEAKER_1>That's where the law comes in.

00:18:03.252 --> 00:18:04.612
<v SPEAKER_1>Someone is a subject of the crown.

00:18:04.612 --> 00:18:05.252
<v SPEAKER_1>How?

00:18:05.252 --> 00:18:06.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Because he was born there.

00:18:06.472 --> 00:18:10.632
<v SPEAKER_1>He was born as an Englishman or whatever.

00:18:10.632 --> 00:18:22.112
<v SPEAKER_1>And so to call him a loyal Englishman, a loyal subject, is a compliment, but it's also simply recognizing the duty that exists before the man even shows up.

00:18:22.112 --> 00:18:26.392
<v SPEAKER_1>So you can either be a loyal subject or you can be a treasonous subject.

00:18:26.392 --> 00:18:30.152
<v SPEAKER_1>You can be a betrayer, which we covered a few weeks ago.

00:18:30.152 --> 00:18:37.332
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that we say that someone is loyal is simply acknowledging in that context, they're doing what they're obligated to do.

00:18:37.332 --> 00:18:39.512
<v SPEAKER_1>And so that's really what this is all about.

00:18:39.512 --> 00:18:43.232
<v SPEAKER_1>Is there an absolute positive obligation to do something?

00:18:43.232 --> 00:18:47.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And then when someone does that, you would say that he was loyally carrying out his duties.

00:18:47.852 --> 00:18:49.992
<v SPEAKER_1>When it's a duty, loyalty attaches.

00:18:49.992 --> 00:18:56.732
<v SPEAKER_1>When it's not a duty, when there's not a legal obligation, which includes a moral obligation, we're not just talking about manmade laws.

00:18:56.732 --> 00:18:59.032
<v SPEAKER_1>We're talking about something where you have to do it.

00:18:59.032 --> 00:19:01.712
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to be loyal to your wife as a husband.

00:19:02.492 --> 00:19:05.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And Corey gave the example of infidelity.

00:19:05.712 --> 00:19:12.552
<v SPEAKER_1>The reason that infidelity terminates a marriage or can be viewed to terminate a marriage is that functionally it has.

00:19:12.552 --> 00:19:17.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Someone who has committed adultery in a marriage has married someone else.

00:19:17.012 --> 00:19:22.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Not legally, but physically and in principle they have.

00:19:22.072 --> 00:19:31.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the option to divorce in that case recognizes, as we discussed in the episode about this, it recognizes the fact that the bond was already broken.

00:19:32.492 --> 00:19:42.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the disloyalty in that particular case is not in the, you know, the aggrieved party choosing not to resume the marriage.

00:19:42.072 --> 00:19:48.512
<v SPEAKER_1>The disloyalty was on the part of the one who cheated, the one who left the marriage to join with someone else.

00:19:48.512 --> 00:19:55.392
<v SPEAKER_1>So really the exceptions are going to be ontological, even in a case where it can be broken.

00:19:55.392 --> 00:19:57.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And a husband and wife, they're one.

00:19:57.372 --> 00:19:58.992
<v SPEAKER_1>That union is a real thing.

00:20:00.252 --> 00:20:02.772
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that it can be broken doesn't make it less real.

00:20:02.772 --> 00:20:04.832
<v SPEAKER_1>It makes it more precious.

00:20:04.832 --> 00:20:11.632
<v SPEAKER_1>The fact that it's potentially fragile is all the more reason to guard it in as many ways as possible.

00:20:11.632 --> 00:20:15.772
<v SPEAKER_1>There's a duty of loyalty that's present there that's just not present for others.

00:20:15.772 --> 00:20:18.632
<v SPEAKER_1>The loyalty that we have to family and to nation.

00:20:18.632 --> 00:20:21.132
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, as Corey was describing, some of the conditionality.

00:20:22.212 --> 00:20:25.232
<v SPEAKER_1>It's important to understand who's breaking the rules.

00:20:25.232 --> 00:20:51.592
<v SPEAKER_1>I think one of the few cases where outside of those bonds that are very fundamental, I think that there are cases where there are bonds of loyalty that are formed usually in things like combat situations, where men are thrown so closely together, that there is a very real bond that is formed between them that exceeds even the bonds that they may have with their own family.

00:20:51.592 --> 00:20:58.332
<v SPEAKER_1>And I think that that is very real in a sense that's not understandable to someone who hasn't been in those situations.

00:20:58.332 --> 00:21:15.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's typically just inside those men's hearts and their minds, but the loyalty that they would have to someone that they'd gone through something difficult with decades prior, it's very common for such a man to still feel a duty of loyalty to those men, no matter where they go in life.

00:21:15.052 --> 00:21:27.492
<v SPEAKER_1>You might not have talked to somebody for 40 years, but if he realized that one of those guys was in trouble, he would probably still feel a duty of loyalty to him, because something has been in terms like forged and fire use.

00:21:27.492 --> 00:21:34.172
<v SPEAKER_1>And I've never been there, so I'm not going to try to abuse them, but I'm acknowledging that there is a real thing that can happen.

00:21:34.172 --> 00:21:36.512
<v SPEAKER_1>But that's the level that we're talking about.

00:21:36.512 --> 00:21:44.192
<v SPEAKER_1>There's no bond forged and fire when you prefer one baker over another, or you prefer one TV show or one podcast over another.

00:21:44.192 --> 00:21:45.152
<v SPEAKER_1>There's nothing there.

00:21:45.152 --> 00:21:47.332
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not remotely the same thing.

00:21:47.332 --> 00:21:52.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's important that we think about this when someone wants to appeal to your loyalty.

00:21:53.212 --> 00:21:56.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Or if you yourself feel like you're being disloyal.

00:21:56.112 --> 00:22:13.112
<v SPEAKER_1>The reason we're doing this episode is we're seeing a lot of conversations play out right now in real time, you know, over the last few weeks, where guys are like, well, I was on Team A and then this fight occurred and I want to be loyal to Team A, but I'm not really happy with the direction they're going.

00:22:13.112 --> 00:22:14.772
<v SPEAKER_1>The details don't matter.

00:22:14.772 --> 00:22:22.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Understand in your own life and in your context and with the particulars that you're dealing with, do you have a duty of loyalty?

00:22:22.252 --> 00:22:27.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Because if you don't, again, not an excuse to be fickle, but what do you do?

00:22:27.112 --> 00:22:29.872
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to cue to our consciences.

00:22:29.872 --> 00:22:33.572
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to form our consciences correctly and we have to obey them.

00:22:33.592 --> 00:22:50.972
<v SPEAKER_1>And I don't want men to be feeling that they're conscience bound and therefore duty bound to show loyalty to organizations or men or whatever, that is no longer fulfilling the purpose that originally attracted them.

00:22:50.972 --> 00:22:54.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Because once again, this is fundamentally most of what we're talking about.

00:22:54.112 --> 00:22:57.912
<v SPEAKER_1>Like the huge carve out here is about affinity.

00:22:57.912 --> 00:22:59.692
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't have affinity for God.

00:22:59.692 --> 00:23:02.052
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't get to have affinity for your nation.

00:23:02.052 --> 00:23:03.772
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't get to have affinity for your family.

00:23:03.772 --> 00:23:04.892
<v SPEAKER_1>There's there.

00:23:04.912 --> 00:23:06.472
<v SPEAKER_1>It's immutable.

00:23:06.472 --> 00:23:10.472
<v SPEAKER_1>You get to have affinity for things that can come and go.

00:23:10.492 --> 00:23:12.812
<v SPEAKER_1>Even things like doctrine.

00:23:12.812 --> 00:23:14.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, I'm not saying the doctrine is not unknowable.

00:23:15.232 --> 00:23:20.252
<v SPEAKER_1>You should absolutely seek pure doctrine, and you should stick to it.

00:23:20.252 --> 00:23:33.032
<v SPEAKER_1>But the holding of a doctrine, in the case of the Christian faith, and the finding where that doctrine is taught faithfully, it's very closely related questions, but it's not exactly the same question.

00:23:33.032 --> 00:23:43.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Because a denomination that has a historical root for whatever confession doesn't get to just de facto claim, this is ours, this belongs to us, this is the only place to get it.

00:23:44.592 --> 00:23:48.492
<v SPEAKER_1>That's one of the fundamental conceits of the Roman Catholic Church.

00:23:48.492 --> 00:23:50.472
<v SPEAKER_1>We're it, you can't go anywhere else.

00:23:50.472 --> 00:23:54.772
<v SPEAKER_1>And eventually enough guys realized, actually they're not it.

00:23:54.772 --> 00:24:04.132
<v SPEAKER_1>They've lost the plot significantly, and they're not going to fix it, and the only way that we can actually have sound doctrine is to go somewhere else.

00:24:04.132 --> 00:24:05.832
<v SPEAKER_1>And that was a disaster.

00:24:05.832 --> 00:24:11.172
<v SPEAKER_1>It was disaster, but it wasn't disloyal on the part of the men who left in the Reformation.

00:24:11.172 --> 00:24:16.312
<v SPEAKER_1>The disloyalty was to God on the part of those who had bungled everything.

00:24:16.312 --> 00:24:24.212
<v SPEAKER_1>They had taken sound doctrine that had been held at one point, centuries earlier, and thrown it away and replaced it with something that was false.

00:24:24.212 --> 00:24:30.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And so the question is always, to whom is the loyalty due if it comes into play at all?

00:24:30.952 --> 00:24:35.132
<v SPEAKER_1>So you have a duty to God, period.

00:24:35.132 --> 00:24:37.832
<v SPEAKER_1>You have a duty to have loyalty to God.

00:24:37.832 --> 00:24:44.852
<v SPEAKER_1>That includes seeking sound doctrine, but no one church body has a monopoly on the claim of sound doctrine.

00:24:44.852 --> 00:24:46.332
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not saying they're all the same.

00:24:46.332 --> 00:24:49.292
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not saying that they all have, you know, different versions of the truth.

00:24:49.292 --> 00:24:52.652
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, when I'm talking, that's not what I mean at all.

00:24:53.712 --> 00:25:04.392
<v SPEAKER_1>What we are saying here is that what you believe to be scripturally true, what you believe you've been faithfully taught, should bind your conscience.

00:25:04.392 --> 00:25:10.492
<v SPEAKER_1>To the extent that a church body is teaching and exemplifying those beliefs, stick with them.

00:25:10.492 --> 00:25:17.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Don't get mad because somebody gets something wrong and there's ongoing discussion.

00:25:17.252 --> 00:25:32.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, it's ironic for us to point to the Declaration of Independence, given what we think about much of the enlightenment, but the phrase in there talking about the long train of usurpations in good men putting up with things as long as they can is entirely sound wisdom.

00:25:32.932 --> 00:25:36.292
<v SPEAKER_1>Even if something is going wrong, again, you don't immediately pop smoke.

00:25:36.292 --> 00:25:37.392
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't say, I don't like this.

00:25:37.392 --> 00:25:38.192
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't like that guy.

00:25:38.192 --> 00:25:39.732
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm leaving.

00:25:39.732 --> 00:25:52.092
<v SPEAKER_1>If the place, if your church body, if your neighborhood was good a few years ago, and then things started going downhill, step one shouldn't be, I'm out of here.

00:25:52.092 --> 00:25:57.632
<v SPEAKER_1>If you fight for what is right along the way, it won't get to that point as much as it's in your control.

00:25:57.632 --> 00:25:58.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Some of these things are inexorable.

00:25:59.412 --> 00:26:01.232
<v SPEAKER_1>Some of these things are not in our control.

00:26:01.232 --> 00:26:02.692
<v SPEAKER_1>That's much of the problem.

00:26:02.692 --> 00:26:11.232
<v SPEAKER_1>As these things devolve over time, as we lose parts of sound doctrine or new false doctrines are introduced through the back door.

00:26:11.232 --> 00:26:12.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And I said, oh, this isn't doctrine at all.

00:26:12.652 --> 00:26:13.912
<v SPEAKER_1>This is just, this is obvious.

00:26:13.912 --> 00:26:17.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And everyone's thought this, even though no one before the 1960s believed it.

00:26:17.812 --> 00:26:21.552
<v SPEAKER_1>There's a long list of those we've gone through in past episodes.

00:26:21.552 --> 00:26:26.892
<v SPEAKER_1>When those things start creeping in, those errors start creeping in, where does your loyalty lie?

00:26:27.172 --> 00:26:29.752
<v SPEAKER_1>You do have loyalty, but it must be to God.

00:26:29.752 --> 00:26:38.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And if a church body, if your congregation, if your denomination is losing the plot, if they're changing, even while they're going to be swearing up and down, nothing's changed.

00:26:38.712 --> 00:26:40.172
<v SPEAKER_1>We're more faithful than ever.

00:26:40.172 --> 00:26:42.212
<v SPEAKER_1>We're more faithful than those guys 50 years ago.

00:26:42.212 --> 00:26:44.852
<v SPEAKER_1>Okay, red flag.

00:26:44.852 --> 00:26:46.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Somebody was wrong at some point.

00:26:46.632 --> 00:26:47.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe it's now.

00:26:47.352 --> 00:26:48.832
<v SPEAKER_1>That'd be great if it were true.

00:26:48.832 --> 00:26:50.612
<v SPEAKER_1>But it's probably before.

00:26:50.612 --> 00:26:55.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Just the way everything else is going in the world, we almost exclusively see devolution.

00:26:56.032 --> 00:27:03.592
<v SPEAKER_1>So when someone says, yeah, I'm breaking with history, I'm breaking with my ancestors from 100 years ago, it's probably for the worse.

00:27:03.592 --> 00:27:11.732
<v SPEAKER_1>If you knew nothing else, except that some guy stands up in current year and says 100 years ago, they believe something else, we're doing something better.

00:27:11.732 --> 00:27:16.212
<v SPEAKER_1>If you knew nothing else, you could assume in almost every case, they're going to be wrong.

00:27:16.212 --> 00:27:17.892
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's not an appeal to tradition.

00:27:17.892 --> 00:27:19.792
<v SPEAKER_1>It's just the trajectory of these things.

00:27:19.792 --> 00:27:21.252
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything is falling apart.

00:27:21.252 --> 00:27:23.072
<v SPEAKER_1>There's very little is being put back together.

00:27:24.052 --> 00:27:28.272
<v SPEAKER_1>And the guys trying to put things back together are catching most of the fire.

00:27:28.272 --> 00:27:30.992
<v SPEAKER_1>So where's the loyalty owed?

00:27:30.992 --> 00:27:32.912
<v SPEAKER_1>It's owed to God, it's owed to truth.

00:27:32.912 --> 00:27:34.752
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not owed to organizations.

00:27:34.752 --> 00:27:38.812
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not owed to these ephemeral things that are stood up for a purpose.

00:27:38.812 --> 00:27:44.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And one day when they cease to serve that function, okay, at some point you do have to leave.

00:27:44.652 --> 00:27:46.672
<v SPEAKER_1>Maybe, you know, ideally not.

00:27:46.672 --> 00:27:49.012
<v SPEAKER_1>But if things get so bad, you're like, I can't be here anymore.

00:27:49.012 --> 00:27:50.592
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't believe what is being taught here.

00:27:51.212 --> 00:27:59.712
<v SPEAKER_1>We want you to understand that you should, in your own understanding of Scripture and God and everything that's true, that you don't have a duty to stick around.

00:27:59.712 --> 00:28:03.432
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't have to be loyal to something that is no longer being loyal to God.

00:28:03.432 --> 00:28:04.692
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the test.

00:28:04.692 --> 00:28:09.612
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's why things like Sola Scriptura are so important, because Scripture is immovable.

00:28:09.612 --> 00:28:12.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Scripture is not changing underneath us.

00:28:12.072 --> 00:28:24.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And so over the centuries, as congregations, as denominations, as entire religions calling themselves Christianity come and go, they're all going to claim to have some root in Scripture.

00:28:24.432 --> 00:28:28.912
<v SPEAKER_1>And then some of them say, but here's the real version, or we've tacked on these addenda.

00:28:28.912 --> 00:28:32.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Here's an entirely separate book that supersedes the first one.

00:28:32.932 --> 00:28:39.332
<v SPEAKER_1>All those are ways of distracting people from the fact that there's a God, we have loyalty to him.

00:28:39.352 --> 00:28:43.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Anything else with a very precious few exceptions is optional.

00:28:44.352 --> 00:28:55.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when you root your loyalty, the proper sense of loyalty, only where it belongs and those things that are immutable, it gets a whole lot easier to understand, when do I stick around and when do I leave?

00:28:55.312 --> 00:28:56.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Even if you used to like guys.

00:28:56.912 --> 00:29:04.652
<v SPEAKER_1>And we've said in the past, like guys like Doug Wilson, I know a bunch of you have been positively influenced by him in the past.

00:29:04.652 --> 00:29:07.792
<v SPEAKER_1>Not going to argue in the slightest that you were misled or anything.

00:29:07.792 --> 00:29:10.592
<v SPEAKER_1>The question is, what is the message that such men have today?

00:29:11.492 --> 00:29:13.812
<v SPEAKER_1>And this is what they play on.

00:29:13.812 --> 00:29:17.892
<v SPEAKER_1>I've been around for so long, you've been listening to me for so many decades.

00:29:17.892 --> 00:29:19.972
<v SPEAKER_1>How dare you go do this other thing?

00:29:19.972 --> 00:29:22.432
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't be disloyal to me.

00:29:22.432 --> 00:29:24.332
<v SPEAKER_1>Not how this works.

00:29:24.332 --> 00:29:26.932
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot have loyalty to a man.

00:29:26.932 --> 00:29:28.352
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't.

00:29:28.352 --> 00:29:29.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Not in these circumstances.

00:29:29.532 --> 00:29:34.272
<v SPEAKER_1>There's nothing in play in any of our lives where loyalty to a man applies.

00:29:34.272 --> 00:29:35.592
<v SPEAKER_1>Our loyalty has to be to God.

00:29:35.592 --> 00:29:41.532
<v SPEAKER_1>And when men step aside from what is in God's word, they're inevitably going to begin attacking it.

00:29:41.532 --> 00:29:55.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And it's going to look for all the world like loyalty, honor, betrayal, like these subjects that we kind of been filling bits and pieces, nooks and crannies of this past year's episodes with various aspects of this.

00:29:55.432 --> 00:29:59.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Don't get confused by habit and affinity.

00:29:59.152 --> 00:30:00.332
<v SPEAKER_1>You used to like a guy.

00:30:00.332 --> 00:30:01.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Fine.

00:30:01.152 --> 00:30:03.392
<v SPEAKER_1>Like, wouldn't even say you made a mistake.

00:30:03.392 --> 00:30:04.532
<v SPEAKER_1>Don't care.

00:30:04.532 --> 00:30:06.012
<v SPEAKER_1>What is he doing today?

00:30:06.012 --> 00:30:07.712
<v SPEAKER_1>It applies as much to us as anybody.

00:30:08.512 --> 00:30:11.152
<v SPEAKER_1>A man is only as good as his last take.

00:30:11.152 --> 00:30:18.112
<v SPEAKER_1>If we start saying stuff that's completely insane and wrong and contrary to scripture, you should walk away.

00:30:18.172 --> 00:30:20.112
<v SPEAKER_1>I will never say that you're disloyal for doing so.

00:30:20.112 --> 00:30:23.352
<v SPEAKER_1>And again, I only point to us because it's such a trivial example.

00:30:23.352 --> 00:30:30.172
<v SPEAKER_1>The examples of men who have set themselves up as pastors, who have bound consciences with these things, it's a much bigger deal.

00:30:30.172 --> 00:30:33.472
<v SPEAKER_1>Because then salvation is hanging in the balance.

00:30:33.472 --> 00:30:42.152
<v SPEAKER_1>For those who believe that these are matters of conscience, that sin is attached, if you're disloyal to a man, well, no.

00:30:42.152 --> 00:30:45.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Disloyalty to Jesus Christ is damnable.

00:30:45.072 --> 00:30:53.092
<v SPEAKER_1>Disloyalty to any other living man, almost none of us are subjects to a king, and even the kings have no power anymore, so it's moot.

00:30:54.192 --> 00:30:58.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Disloyalty is to God's principles.

00:30:58.172 --> 00:31:01.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything else either works or it doesn't.

00:31:01.012 --> 00:31:03.232
<v SPEAKER_1>And if it doesn't work, you are free to walk away.

00:31:03.612 --> 00:31:06.192
<v SPEAKER_1>In fact, you must walk away.

00:31:06.872 --> 00:31:09.052
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the crucial aspect of this.

00:31:09.052 --> 00:31:12.252
<v SPEAKER_1>You have to be ready to walk away from something that turns.

00:31:12.252 --> 00:31:17.752
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, when you buy food at the grocery store, it's fresh, it's delicious, but those things have dates on them.

00:31:17.752 --> 00:31:19.772
<v SPEAKER_1>Sometimes they're called expiration dates.

00:31:19.772 --> 00:31:23.072
<v SPEAKER_1>I think it's mostly now called freshness dates.

00:31:23.072 --> 00:31:27.872
<v SPEAKER_1>If you drink from a carton of milk that's one day past that date, it's still going to be fine.

00:31:27.872 --> 00:31:29.992
<v SPEAKER_1>Probably still tastes okay, too.

00:31:29.992 --> 00:31:35.352
<v SPEAKER_1>If you drink from that carton a week later, probably starting to smell and maybe taste a little off.

00:31:35.352 --> 00:31:39.112
<v SPEAKER_1>A month later, it's probably actually going to be getting close to hurting you.

00:31:39.112 --> 00:31:41.012
<v SPEAKER_1>It's really not going to make you feel good.

00:31:41.012 --> 00:31:44.952
<v SPEAKER_1>Is that because the milk is no longer milk and it just turned?

00:31:44.952 --> 00:31:51.572
<v SPEAKER_1>It was one thing and it was suitable for a purpose at that time, and then it turned into something that's no longer palatable.

00:31:51.572 --> 00:31:53.972
<v SPEAKER_1>Now, men shouldn't be doing this.

00:31:53.972 --> 00:31:56.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Men shouldn't be souring like milk.

00:31:56.572 --> 00:31:58.392
<v SPEAKER_1>That's decay, that's bad.

00:31:58.392 --> 00:32:00.192
<v SPEAKER_1>But we have to acknowledge that it happens.

00:32:00.812 --> 00:32:06.412
<v SPEAKER_1>Guys start off fine, they're doing a great job, and sometimes they go off into the weeds for whatever reason.

00:32:06.412 --> 00:32:07.732
<v SPEAKER_1>The reasons don't matter.

00:32:07.732 --> 00:32:14.272
<v SPEAKER_1>The test is, are they still consistent with scripture, or are they adopting the new global religions mores?

00:32:14.272 --> 00:32:20.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Are they doing things and saying things and fighting for things that aren't Christian anymore?

00:32:20.112 --> 00:32:21.732
<v SPEAKER_1>They're going to say they're Christian.

00:32:21.732 --> 00:32:23.892
<v SPEAKER_1>They're going to say they haven't changed at all.

00:32:23.892 --> 00:32:26.952
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the difficult part for us who are onlookers.

00:32:26.952 --> 00:32:29.352
<v SPEAKER_1>How do we determine is this guy still being faithful?

00:32:30.052 --> 00:32:34.612
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, Protestants should have this easy in the one sense that we have scripture.

00:32:34.612 --> 00:32:40.032
<v SPEAKER_1>And we can look to history and we can pick and choose where people were getting things right and getting things wrong.

00:32:40.032 --> 00:32:43.172
<v SPEAKER_1>The Catholic Church got many things right for a thousand years.

00:32:43.172 --> 00:32:44.392
<v SPEAKER_1>They got a lot of stuff right.

00:32:44.392 --> 00:32:45.592
<v SPEAKER_1>It was Christian.

00:32:45.592 --> 00:32:47.452
<v SPEAKER_1>It just wasn't entirely Christian.

00:32:47.452 --> 00:32:51.352
<v SPEAKER_1>And more and more, they threw away the things that were good and replaced them with things that were bad.

00:32:51.352 --> 00:32:55.632
<v SPEAKER_1>The Protestant Reformation was not about throwing everything out.

00:32:55.632 --> 00:32:57.212
<v SPEAKER_1>It was not about throwing everything out.

00:32:57.812 --> 00:33:01.692
<v SPEAKER_1>It was about removing the cancer that had been growing.

00:33:01.692 --> 00:33:15.352
<v SPEAKER_1>These discussions and these problems that we face individually, as we're looking at fights and whatever, you have to understand that if you're not excising, if you can't rescue whatever the patient is, you don't have to be loyal to it.

00:33:15.352 --> 00:33:16.992
<v SPEAKER_1>You're free to walk away.

00:33:16.992 --> 00:33:20.152
<v SPEAKER_1>And at some point, you're obligated to do so.

00:33:20.152 --> 00:33:34.032
<v SPEAKER_2>To make sure that we're clear and to give you a sort of framework to help you think about the issue of loyalty and how it applies in different circumstances, there's essentially a hierarchy with three levels.

00:33:34.032 --> 00:33:35.712
<v SPEAKER_2>The top is God, of course.

00:33:35.712 --> 00:33:40.392
<v SPEAKER_2>You owe absolute, unconditional loyalty to God.

00:33:40.392 --> 00:33:50.692
<v SPEAKER_2>God does not change, again, so that's somewhat easier than the other levels, the other tiers in the hierarchy, as it were, because everything other than God can change, of course.

00:33:52.972 --> 00:33:56.012
<v SPEAKER_2>The second level is nation and family.

00:33:56.012 --> 00:34:05.492
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, some will try to argue that you have to place one above the other, and often these days people will argue that family should come before nation.

00:34:05.492 --> 00:34:07.512
<v SPEAKER_2>They're really on the same level.

00:34:07.512 --> 00:34:10.592
<v SPEAKER_2>And to some degree, we all recognize this.

00:34:10.612 --> 00:34:19.132
<v SPEAKER_2>One way in which you can recognize that family does not always trump nation, and we know that nation does not always trump family, so that basically goes without argument.

00:34:20.952 --> 00:34:30.632
<v SPEAKER_2>But one way in which nation can trump family is that in the event of war, men can be called up to defend the nation.

00:34:30.632 --> 00:34:32.832
<v SPEAKER_2>That takes them away from their family.

00:34:32.832 --> 00:34:44.212
<v SPEAKER_2>That takes them away from the duties owed to the family, because those owed to the nation, at the very least, in times of war, trump the duties owed to family.

00:34:44.212 --> 00:34:48.092
<v SPEAKER_2>And so sometimes, yes, nation is higher in the hierarchy than family.

00:34:48.832 --> 00:34:59.712
<v SPEAKER_2>Under certain circumstances, some of these things are going to be matters of wisdom, because that's simply unavoidable in so many of the things that we discuss, certainly in this area.

00:34:59.712 --> 00:35:02.892
<v SPEAKER_2>And then last, of course, is everything else.

00:35:02.892 --> 00:35:11.532
<v SPEAKER_2>And everything else has that sort of limited or lesser duty of loyalty, if it is present at all.

00:35:13.092 --> 00:35:31.572
<v SPEAKER_2>As we've mentioned a number of times, your favorite restaurant or bakery or anything like that, you can be a loyal customer, you can be a loyal patron, but you don't owe a duty of loyalty, because it's simply not the same sort of thing.

00:35:31.572 --> 00:35:38.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And as Wo was mentioning and focusing on, a big part of this is change.

00:35:38.752 --> 00:35:44.112
<v SPEAKER_2>God is unchanging, and so that duty of loyalty is never drawn into question with God.

00:35:45.172 --> 00:35:49.432
<v SPEAKER_2>But men can change, men do change sometimes.

00:35:49.432 --> 00:36:11.492
<v SPEAKER_2>And if that change is of such a character that he becomes different from what he once was, in a salient way, then you no longer have whatever duty you may once have had to that man, because there's a distinction here between the duty that you owed to, say, in the example of a teacher, it's sort of the clearest.

00:36:12.972 --> 00:36:22.612
<v SPEAKER_2>A man who teaches God's word, you owe a duty both to God's word and in some limited sense to that man.

00:36:22.612 --> 00:36:29.912
<v SPEAKER_2>For instance, with regard to pastors, they are supposed to make their living by the gospel, because they are teaching the gospel.

00:36:29.912 --> 00:36:33.292
<v SPEAKER_2>It also applies to teachers, but in a slightly different way.

00:36:33.292 --> 00:36:35.452
<v SPEAKER_2>We'll leave that aside for now.

00:36:35.452 --> 00:36:47.292
<v SPEAKER_2>But you have those two different sorts of loyalty there, the stronger one being to God, and so you're loyal because what is being taught is true, is consonant with God's Word.

00:36:47.292 --> 00:36:51.952
<v SPEAKER_2>And you owe a duty to the man, because he is the one doing that.

00:36:51.952 --> 00:36:57.512
<v SPEAKER_2>If he starts to teach falsely, you no longer owe any duty to him.

00:36:57.512 --> 00:37:04.712
<v SPEAKER_2>You owe a duty to God's Word, and so in fact, you have to abandon and desert that man, because what he is doing is wicked.

00:37:06.572 --> 00:37:12.972
<v SPEAKER_2>As Woe said, a man is only as good as his last take, and that is certainly true for teachers.

00:37:12.972 --> 00:37:24.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Teachers of the Word are good as teachers of the Word, only so long as, and only so far as, they teach the Word truthfully and correctly.

00:37:24.992 --> 00:37:30.732
<v SPEAKER_2>As soon as they stray from that path, they are no longer orthodox teachers.

00:37:30.732 --> 00:37:40.052
<v SPEAKER_2>They become false teachers, and we are instructed very clearly by God's Word not to entertain, not to listen to false teachers.

00:37:40.052 --> 00:37:48.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And so that duty to God, the loyalty to God, trumps whatever you may have had in the past with regard to that teacher.

00:37:49.632 --> 00:37:55.432
<v SPEAKER_2>And again, it is possible for men to change, and that's why we have to be cognizant of these issues.

00:37:55.432 --> 00:38:03.612
<v SPEAKER_2>It's why we have to pay attention to what men are saying today, not just what they've said in the past.

00:38:03.612 --> 00:38:19.312
<v SPEAKER_2>For instance, if we came out in the future and released an episode saying that you should become a neo-pagan, you should absolutely stop listening to this podcast, because we would be false teachers if we were to do that.

00:38:19.312 --> 00:38:23.532
<v SPEAKER_2>Does that mean that all of the material that we produced in the past is wrong?

00:38:24.012 --> 00:38:30.612
<v SPEAKER_2>Of course not, because committing an error in the future does not alter the past.

00:38:30.612 --> 00:38:33.892
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not how causality works.

00:38:33.892 --> 00:38:46.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Now, perhaps you would subject the older material to greater scrutiny if someone became a false teacher in the future, because you may wonder if any of that was hidden in the old stuff.

00:38:46.132 --> 00:38:50.412
<v SPEAKER_2>But it doesn't necessarily mean that it was, because men can change.

00:38:51.032 --> 00:38:55.332
<v SPEAKER_2>And so, a man who becomes a false teacher, you stop listening to him.

00:38:55.332 --> 00:39:03.332
<v SPEAKER_2>It doesn't mean that whatever relationship you had with that man or his teaching in the past was wrongful or was harmful.

00:39:03.332 --> 00:39:09.492
<v SPEAKER_2>It may in fact have been very beneficial, because apostasy is a very real thing.

00:39:09.492 --> 00:39:19.812
<v SPEAKER_2>There are men who were faithful teachers, perhaps for decades, who even preached and taught the word rightly and soundly, and then abandoned the faith.

00:39:21.432 --> 00:39:23.192
<v SPEAKER_2>They became apostate.

00:39:23.192 --> 00:39:31.912
<v SPEAKER_2>It doesn't change what they did in the past, but it does mean that you can no longer listen to them, because they have become false teachers.

00:39:31.912 --> 00:39:37.372
<v SPEAKER_2>And so the duty that you had to that man no longer exists.

00:39:37.372 --> 00:39:43.052
<v SPEAKER_2>The stronger and higher duty you have to God and his word still exists.

00:39:43.052 --> 00:39:48.192
<v SPEAKER_2>That is theoretically and should certainly be why you were listening to that man in the past.

00:39:49.512 --> 00:39:53.052
<v SPEAKER_2>It is also why you cannot listen to him in the future.

00:39:53.052 --> 00:40:10.132
<v SPEAKER_2>And so a teacher who strays from the path again must be abandoned and deserted, because he has become a false teacher and your duty to God trumps whatever relationship, sentiment, affinity, whatever it is you had for that man in the past.

00:40:10.132 --> 00:40:13.252
<v SPEAKER_2>And we see that happening today.

00:40:13.252 --> 00:40:33.932
<v SPEAKER_2>And the most common area in which we see that happening, the most common way that we see it happening, is when men are faced with the decision between what society says is good and right and honorable and true and all of these wonderful things, and what the Word of God actually says when you read it carefully.

00:40:35.772 --> 00:40:40.432
<v SPEAKER_2>Many of our past episodes have dealt with these issues.

00:40:40.432 --> 00:40:48.212
<v SPEAKER_2>So, for instance, the modern world says that slavery is a horrible wicked sin, a horrible evil, something you could never do.

00:40:48.212 --> 00:40:52.732
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't possibly be a Christian and support slavery, never mind St.

00:40:52.732 --> 00:40:56.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Paul and many, many others down through the ages.

00:40:58.472 --> 00:41:05.032
<v SPEAKER_2>Scripture does not condemn slavery, as we made very clear in the episode on slavery.

00:41:05.032 --> 00:41:19.052
<v SPEAKER_2>And so many men, when faced with the choice between saying, slavery is morally permissible, or slavery is evil, will choose slavery as evil, because they do not want to be condemned by the world.

00:41:19.052 --> 00:41:21.272
<v SPEAKER_2>They don't want to be a social pariah.

00:41:21.272 --> 00:41:30.132
<v SPEAKER_2>They do not want to stand up and draw fire for saying what God says in his word, because God does not say that slavery is evil.

00:41:30.132 --> 00:41:33.852
<v SPEAKER_2>God does not say that slavery is morally impermissible.

00:41:33.852 --> 00:41:35.672
<v SPEAKER_2>In fact, he says the opposite.

00:41:35.672 --> 00:41:42.572
<v SPEAKER_2>He says it is morally permissible he even instructs Old Testament Israel to take slaves, and then he regulates it.

00:41:42.572 --> 00:41:45.832
<v SPEAKER_2>God doesn't regulate things that are evil per se.

00:41:45.832 --> 00:41:47.652
<v SPEAKER_2>He bans them.

00:41:47.652 --> 00:41:52.672
<v SPEAKER_2>The worship of false gods is evil per se, and so it is banned.

00:41:52.672 --> 00:41:58.872
<v SPEAKER_2>But modern teachers, when faced with that choice, will often choose to abandon God.

00:41:58.872 --> 00:42:02.792
<v SPEAKER_2>And so, as Christians, we have to abandon them.

00:42:02.792 --> 00:42:09.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, we can first rebuke them and try to bring them back to the truth, but many of them have already made that choice.

00:42:09.732 --> 00:42:17.732
<v SPEAKER_2>They have decided that they are going to side with the world, and what the world says is good, instead of what God says is good.

00:42:17.732 --> 00:42:24.532
<v SPEAKER_2>They're going to say what the world says is evil is the actual sin that matters, instead of the things that God says.

00:42:24.532 --> 00:42:26.032
<v SPEAKER_2>No, these are sins.

00:42:26.032 --> 00:42:28.092
<v SPEAKER_2>These are the things you may not do.

00:42:28.092 --> 00:42:30.852
<v SPEAKER_2>These are the things of which you must repent.

00:42:30.852 --> 00:42:32.192
<v SPEAKER_2>And what are they doing when they do that?

00:42:33.212 --> 00:42:45.652
<v SPEAKER_2>When a man tells you that something that is not a sin according to God is a sin, he's telling you that his religion is not the religion of Scripture, is not the religion of the Lord God.

00:42:45.652 --> 00:42:48.972
<v SPEAKER_2>His God is not the God of the Bible.

00:42:48.972 --> 00:42:50.432
<v SPEAKER_2>His God is a different God.

00:42:50.432 --> 00:42:53.632
<v SPEAKER_2>His religion is a different religion.

00:42:53.632 --> 00:42:55.932
<v SPEAKER_2>Because every religion has sins.

00:42:55.932 --> 00:42:57.152
<v SPEAKER_2>Every religion has good works.

00:42:58.792 --> 00:43:10.292
<v SPEAKER_2>If the sins of a religion, which is to say if a man tells you something is sin, is not something that is found in the Bible, that man is telling you that he is not a Christian.

00:43:10.292 --> 00:43:14.992
<v SPEAKER_2>There are many, many instances of that in our world these days.

00:43:14.992 --> 00:43:16.912
<v SPEAKER_2>Slavery is just one example.

00:43:16.912 --> 00:43:18.692
<v SPEAKER_2>Polygyny is another.

00:43:18.692 --> 00:43:26.792
<v SPEAKER_2>This one makes many uncomfortable when you point out, as we have done in previous episodes, that God does not prohibit polygyny.

00:43:27.432 --> 00:43:29.432
<v SPEAKER_2>A man may have multiple wives.

00:43:29.432 --> 00:43:30.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it advisable?

00:43:30.572 --> 00:43:31.172
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

00:43:31.172 --> 00:43:33.092
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it wise?

00:43:33.092 --> 00:43:34.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Very seldom.

00:43:34.472 --> 00:43:36.572
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it something to which one should aspire?

00:43:36.572 --> 00:43:38.132
<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely not.

00:43:38.132 --> 00:43:40.652
<v SPEAKER_2>But is it morally permissible?

00:43:40.652 --> 00:43:42.732
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:43:42.732 --> 00:43:51.472
<v SPEAKER_2>Very few supposedly Christian teachers are willing to defend that, because it runs counter to what society says.

00:43:51.472 --> 00:44:05.492
<v SPEAKER_2>The great irony in that case, of course, is that society really doesn't believe that, because society is hell-bent on maximizing promiscuity, which is really just some sort of serial polygyny that's even less committed.

00:44:05.492 --> 00:44:08.612
<v SPEAKER_2>It's in fact far worse than just having a harem.

00:44:10.692 --> 00:44:16.672
<v SPEAKER_2>But modern Christians, so-called, have decided that that's a horrible egregious sin.

00:44:16.672 --> 00:44:19.292
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't possibly have more than one wife.

00:44:20.852 --> 00:44:28.532
<v SPEAKER_2>That is something that is permissible for the Christian prince, or whatever the governing authority happens to be, to enshrine in the positive law.

00:44:28.532 --> 00:44:33.252
<v SPEAKER_2>Because God doesn't say it's required, and he also doesn't say it's prohibited.

00:44:33.252 --> 00:44:35.872
<v SPEAKER_2>So it is a matter left to wisdom.

00:44:35.872 --> 00:44:44.312
<v SPEAKER_2>But a Christian teacher, when presented with the very clear word of God on the subject, must side with the word of God.

00:44:44.312 --> 00:44:51.712
<v SPEAKER_2>If instead of siding with the word of God, he says that polygyny is per se sin, he's telling you he has a different God.

00:44:51.712 --> 00:44:58.592
<v SPEAKER_2>Because according to his God, this thing that scripture does not ban is sin.

00:44:58.592 --> 00:45:01.812
<v SPEAKER_2>And I could keep giving examples because there are so many of them.

00:45:01.812 --> 00:45:04.992
<v SPEAKER_2>Obviously, racism is one of the biggest ones.

00:45:06.092 --> 00:45:08.672
<v SPEAKER_2>That's nowhere in scripture.

00:45:08.672 --> 00:45:12.152
<v SPEAKER_2>There is no sin of racism in scripture.

00:45:12.152 --> 00:45:18.592
<v SPEAKER_2>In fact, scripture says rather the opposite, because it says if you do not provide for your own, you are worse than an unbeliever.

00:45:20.872 --> 00:45:39.752
<v SPEAKER_2>And yet, when faced with the choice between condemning racism or saying that no, that's not a sin, that's modernism, that's Marxism, that's something that is alien to scripture and alien to the God of scripture, most teachers who claim to be Christian will choose to condemn racism.

00:45:42.032 --> 00:45:48.232
<v SPEAKER_2>We have rampant false teaching and false teachers in the churches in the West.

00:45:48.632 --> 00:45:51.832
<v SPEAKER_2>Which is really the churches in the entire world.

00:45:51.832 --> 00:45:54.352
<v SPEAKER_2>This is a serious problem.

00:45:54.352 --> 00:46:09.972
<v SPEAKER_2>And they will try to tell you that you are disloyal or dishonorable, or you're not a real Christian, or any of a number of other terms, anything they can find to try and bully you into changing your position, into trying to yield to what they say is wrongful.

00:46:11.192 --> 00:46:15.672
<v SPEAKER_2>Because they will tell you, these are the list of modern sins that you absolutely cannot commit.

00:46:17.332 --> 00:46:21.292
<v SPEAKER_2>And how dare you compare those to the Word of God?

00:46:21.292 --> 00:46:22.712
<v SPEAKER_2>But that's exactly what a Christian will do.

00:46:22.712 --> 00:46:27.632
<v SPEAKER_2>A Christian will look to the Word of God and say, where is that in God's Word?

00:46:27.632 --> 00:46:32.072
<v SPEAKER_2>Where does God's Word say that this thing is per se sin?

00:46:32.072 --> 00:46:37.292
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if God's Word does not say that it is per se sin, I cannot say it either.

00:46:37.292 --> 00:46:43.972
<v SPEAKER_2>Because if I say that it is per se sin, when God does not, I am saying that I have a different God.

00:46:45.752 --> 00:46:51.152
<v SPEAKER_2>Because confessing a sin that is no sin is worship of a false God.

00:46:51.152 --> 00:46:56.872
<v SPEAKER_2>And so when you confess the sin of racism, you are confessing a false God.

00:46:56.872 --> 00:47:26.792
<v SPEAKER_2>If you are faced with a teacher who has taught rightly on many subjects, and there are many of these, we could give examples, but if you are faced with a teacher who has taught rightly, soundly, truthfully, on a number of subjects, even over a course of decades, and then when faced with these modern questions today, he sides with the world against God, you cannot continue to listen to that man.

00:47:26.792 --> 00:47:32.012
<v SPEAKER_2>It doesn't mean you have to throw out all of his books that were sound on other topics.

00:47:32.012 --> 00:47:49.632
<v SPEAKER_2>What he has done in the past is not destroyed by what he is doing now, except insofar as his reputation is concerned, because of course a man can destroy his entire legacy if he says things that are ill-advised or unwise or outright wicked.

00:47:50.812 --> 00:47:53.852
<v SPEAKER_2>You do not have to destroy the past materials.

00:47:53.852 --> 00:48:00.532
<v SPEAKER_2>You do not have to be ashamed of the relationship you had with the man or those materials in the past.

00:48:00.532 --> 00:48:13.712
<v SPEAKER_2>But you cannot continue it going forward, because your duty of loyalty to God trumps whatever relationship, whatever loyalty you have or had with that man.

00:48:13.712 --> 00:48:15.872
<v SPEAKER_2>Because again, men can change.

00:48:15.872 --> 00:48:19.452
<v SPEAKER_2>And so a teacher who is true can become false.

00:48:19.452 --> 00:48:25.892
<v SPEAKER_2>If he becomes false, you do not owe a duty to him.

00:48:25.892 --> 00:48:34.572
<v SPEAKER_2>With the exception, the minor exception as it were, of the general Christian duty that we owe to Christian brothers to rebuke them if we are in a position to do so.

00:48:35.632 --> 00:48:45.352
<v SPEAKER_2>And so if you know this false teacher, this man who has become a false teacher personally, absolutely you should go to him and tell him, what you are saying is wrong.

00:48:45.352 --> 00:48:47.952
<v SPEAKER_2>You are speaking contrary to the word of God.

00:48:47.952 --> 00:48:50.012
<v SPEAKER_2>You are on the path to apostasy.

00:48:50.012 --> 00:48:52.132
<v SPEAKER_2>You need to repent.

00:48:52.132 --> 00:48:56.052
<v SPEAKER_2>If he repents, you've won a brother, and that's great news.

00:48:56.052 --> 00:49:10.612
<v SPEAKER_2>But with regard to these modern sins so called, most men when confronted will not repent, because they have revealed to you they have a different God, and they are going to stick with that religion.

00:49:10.612 --> 00:49:19.072
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you owe a duty of loyalty to God to abandon them, to cease to listen to them, because they will lead you astray.

00:49:19.072 --> 00:49:20.212
<v SPEAKER_2>They are false prophets.

00:49:20.212 --> 00:49:22.092
<v SPEAKER_2>They are false teachers.

00:49:22.092 --> 00:49:24.452
<v SPEAKER_2>They are wolves in sheep's clothing.

00:49:24.452 --> 00:49:29.592
<v SPEAKER_2>They are dangerous to your soul, and they are dangerous to the souls of everyone else who hears them.

00:49:31.112 --> 00:49:38.952
<v SPEAKER_2>We unfortunately do not currently have a Christian prince who suppresses these wolves, who destroys these false teachers.

00:49:38.952 --> 00:49:43.652
<v SPEAKER_2>If we had that, we would be in much better shape, but we do not have that.

00:49:43.652 --> 00:50:02.112
<v SPEAKER_2>And so the best that we can do today is to condemn those false teachers, cease to listen to them, cease to give them a platform, certainly don't give them money or support of any kind, support truthful teachers instead, because that's the best thing we can do at the present juncture, under current conditions.

00:50:04.212 --> 00:50:12.052
<v SPEAKER_2>The more true teaching we have, and the more men we have listening to true teaching, the better off we are.

00:50:12.052 --> 00:50:20.032
<v SPEAKER_2>But the flip side of that is not listening to false teachers, even if they were good teachers in the past.

00:50:21.252 --> 00:50:29.292
<v SPEAKER_1>As in the case of many of our episodes, as funny as it is to say, this is really about raising awareness.

00:50:29.292 --> 00:50:32.952
<v SPEAKER_1>It's something you hear from beauty pageant queens.

00:50:32.952 --> 00:50:37.672
<v SPEAKER_1>But raising awareness of the question, when should I be loyal?

00:50:37.672 --> 00:50:41.932
<v SPEAKER_1>When is it not disloyalty for me to say, yeah, I'm done here.

00:50:41.932 --> 00:50:49.112
<v SPEAKER_1>There's nothing more for me is vital, particularly because we see so many men who are trying to do a better job.

00:50:49.112 --> 00:50:53.012
<v SPEAKER_1>They're trying to live honorable lives to do that which is honorable.

00:50:53.012 --> 00:50:54.412
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's completely commendable.

00:50:55.072 --> 00:51:12.172
<v SPEAKER_1>In this episode, short though it may be, is emphasizing the fact that there is in fact not only no dishonor in refusing to be loyal to that which doesn't have the duty of loyalty, it is dishonorable for you to stick with someone who's leading you down a false path.

00:51:12.172 --> 00:51:15.412
<v SPEAKER_1>And discerning that is the hard part.

00:51:15.412 --> 00:51:18.632
<v SPEAKER_1>We're all going to answer to God for everything that we say and do.

00:51:18.652 --> 00:51:25.032
<v SPEAKER_1>And there's no get out of jail free card for us to say, well, I was following the guy that was really popular.

00:51:25.172 --> 00:51:27.632
<v SPEAKER_1>I just did what the guy that I liked said.

00:51:27.632 --> 00:51:29.852
<v SPEAKER_1>Whatever he said, I stuck with it.

00:51:29.852 --> 00:51:32.592
<v SPEAKER_1>That is not the biblical test.

00:51:32.592 --> 00:51:36.272
<v SPEAKER_1>That is kind of where the Jews were when Jesus showed up.

00:51:36.272 --> 00:51:38.672
<v SPEAKER_1>That's where the Pharisees had led them.

00:51:38.672 --> 00:51:41.412
<v SPEAKER_1>They had invented an entirely new religion.

00:51:41.412 --> 00:51:45.872
<v SPEAKER_1>They had bits and pieces of the old religion, and many were led astray by it.

00:51:45.872 --> 00:51:55.572
<v SPEAKER_1>And so when Jesus came back and he cleaned house, one of the things that he did very dramatically was to divide the people from their teachers.

00:51:55.572 --> 00:51:59.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Was that because he was there to create division and do harm?

00:51:59.152 --> 00:52:07.292
<v SPEAKER_1>He said he was there to create division, but the division because false teachers were sweeping in among the sheep.

00:52:07.292 --> 00:52:10.912
<v SPEAKER_1>So yes, there must be division where there's false teaching.

00:52:10.912 --> 00:52:14.292
<v SPEAKER_1>There must be division where the sheep are being harmed.

00:52:14.292 --> 00:52:20.952
<v SPEAKER_1>And unfortunately for us as sheep, most have no ability to discern subtle things.

00:52:20.952 --> 00:52:25.072
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's why as much as possible, we try to point to things that are obvious.

00:52:25.072 --> 00:52:33.052
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't need to have some super IQ to be able to figure out when something is a complete break with all of Christian history.

00:52:33.052 --> 00:52:38.172
<v SPEAKER_1>And when you look at the scriptural arguments for and against, they don't look at all the same.

00:52:38.172 --> 00:52:40.692
<v SPEAKER_1>The scriptural arguments on one side are thick.

00:52:40.692 --> 00:52:45.132
<v SPEAKER_1>The scriptural arguments on the other side are almost always deranged.

00:52:45.392 --> 00:52:52.072
<v SPEAKER_1>Whatever the topic is, you look at them side by side and you're like, no one could possibly believe one of these.

00:52:52.072 --> 00:52:58.172
<v SPEAKER_1>And yet, there are teachers who will continue to push the thing that is plainly contrary to scripture.

00:52:58.172 --> 00:53:07.712
<v SPEAKER_1>Everyone not only has a permission slip, not to be loyal to teachers who are false, we have an obligation, a positive duty to God not to do so.

00:53:07.712 --> 00:53:10.032
<v SPEAKER_1>And that is the honorable act.

00:53:10.032 --> 00:53:20.572
<v SPEAKER_1>So none of this is about being casual about these matters, about being fickle, about being unforgiving or lacking in grace to people who make mistakes.

00:53:20.572 --> 00:53:21.572
<v SPEAKER_1>That's fine.

00:53:21.572 --> 00:53:26.832
<v SPEAKER_1>I mean, it's not fine to make mistakes, especially as a teacher, because the consequences are so dire.

00:53:26.832 --> 00:53:29.412
<v SPEAKER_1>But step one is not, I'm out of here.

00:53:29.412 --> 00:53:33.612
<v SPEAKER_1>Step one is not, this is evil, get him, he's finished.

00:53:33.612 --> 00:53:43.832
<v SPEAKER_1>Step one is brotherly rebuke to go to someone and say, hey, you've done something wrong, you've said something wrong, let's get back on the same page.

00:53:43.912 --> 00:53:46.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And the page is right here, it's in the Bible.

00:53:48.132 --> 00:53:53.172
<v SPEAKER_1>The honorable thing to do is to try to hammer those things out as Christian men.

00:53:53.172 --> 00:53:56.232
<v SPEAKER_1>But the loyalty ultimately is always to God alone.

00:53:56.232 --> 00:54:00.772
<v SPEAKER_1>In these circumstances, you cannot have loyalty to a denomination.

00:54:00.772 --> 00:54:03.272
<v SPEAKER_1>You cannot have loyalty to a pastor.

00:54:03.272 --> 00:54:10.052
<v SPEAKER_1>And it has nothing to do with being fickle, it has nothing to do with being disrespectful or being suspicious.

00:54:10.052 --> 00:54:16.832
<v SPEAKER_1>It's saying when an issue arises, and you look at the argument for and against, you're going to have to make a decision.

00:54:16.832 --> 00:54:27.192
<v SPEAKER_1>And your decision has to be based on what God says, and not the sunk cost of you been going there for 30 years, and you don't want to move your membership.

00:54:27.192 --> 00:54:29.112
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't want to see anybody leaving their churches.

00:54:29.112 --> 00:54:33.852
<v SPEAKER_1>The purpose of this episode is not to subliminally message to anyone, you should leave your congregation.

00:54:33.852 --> 00:54:35.252
<v SPEAKER_1>That's not the point.

00:54:35.252 --> 00:54:54.292
<v SPEAKER_1>What we're saying is that when these fights arise, when these disagreements occur, you have to understand that your positive duty must always be to God, and where time and inertia in family history have a draw, they certainly have an affinity, and it's a shame to lose those things.

00:54:54.292 --> 00:55:02.852
<v SPEAKER_1>It is nevertheless honorable to say, for me to be loyal to God, for me to be faithful as a Christian, I have to be somewhere else.

00:55:02.852 --> 00:55:04.692
<v SPEAKER_1>I don't wish that for anyone.

00:55:04.692 --> 00:55:11.972
<v SPEAKER_1>I wish for all of our churches to be faithful, and to be more faithful over time, not less as so many seem to be.

00:55:11.972 --> 00:55:18.432
<v SPEAKER_1>But do not let anyone play on your sense of honor and your sense of loyalty, to say, no, you're stuck here.

00:55:18.432 --> 00:55:22.012
<v SPEAKER_1>We're doing this new thing now, and you're coming along, or else you're a traitor.

00:55:22.012 --> 00:55:24.352
<v SPEAKER_1>We're going to isolate you.

00:55:24.352 --> 00:55:25.612
<v SPEAKER_1>That may well happen.

00:55:25.612 --> 00:55:27.232
<v SPEAKER_1>That often happens.

00:55:27.232 --> 00:55:29.352
<v SPEAKER_1>Frankly, that's cult behavior.

00:55:29.352 --> 00:55:33.432
<v SPEAKER_1>When someone is like, well, you've transgressed, you've lost all ties.

00:55:34.252 --> 00:55:35.752
<v SPEAKER_1>You can't talk to these people anymore.

00:55:35.752 --> 00:55:37.512
<v SPEAKER_1>They're outcasts.

00:55:37.512 --> 00:55:41.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Christian duty says to do that when someone is behaving poorly.

00:55:41.172 --> 00:55:50.512
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, I'm not disputing what's in scripture, but when you pay careful attention to when those rules are actually used, they're never used in a way that's godly.

00:55:50.512 --> 00:55:53.712
<v SPEAKER_1>They're never used for things, virtually never.

00:55:53.712 --> 00:55:54.532
<v SPEAKER_1>I shouldn't say never.

00:55:54.532 --> 00:55:56.532
<v SPEAKER_1>It's not an absolute statement.

00:55:56.532 --> 00:56:08.272
<v SPEAKER_1>Overwhelmingly, when you see people in denominations that have never had any history, any modern history of church discipline, they're suddenly screaming about church discipline.

00:56:08.272 --> 00:56:11.312
<v SPEAKER_1>Don't think, yeah, church discipline, that's the thing that occurs in churches.

00:56:11.332 --> 00:56:15.012
<v SPEAKER_1>Ask them, where's your history of behaving like this in the past?

00:56:15.012 --> 00:56:18.652
<v SPEAKER_1>Show me the last 20 men that you have treated this way.

00:56:18.652 --> 00:56:20.372
<v SPEAKER_1>And they won't have a list that long.

00:56:20.372 --> 00:56:25.592
<v SPEAKER_1>They'll have a list that's very short and very modern and has very particular targets.

00:56:25.592 --> 00:56:28.412
<v SPEAKER_1>It has nothing to do with anything that was historical belief of the church.

00:56:29.172 --> 00:56:30.932
<v SPEAKER_1>Your loyalty must remain to God.

00:56:30.932 --> 00:56:33.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And it can't be to anyone who behaves in that way.

00:56:33.852 --> 00:56:39.572
<v SPEAKER_1>It's so easy for us to be tricked and deceived and exploited by brand affinity.

00:56:39.572 --> 00:56:42.552
<v SPEAKER_1>And that has no place in moral matters.

00:56:42.552 --> 00:56:44.412
<v SPEAKER_1>It's perfectly fine to have an affinity.

00:56:44.412 --> 00:56:47.152
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm a very loyal customer at all sorts of things.

00:56:47.152 --> 00:56:52.612
<v SPEAKER_1>If there's a sales guy that I like and trust, I don't want to buy from anybody else for whatever it is.

00:56:52.612 --> 00:56:54.392
<v SPEAKER_1>I want to shop in the same places.

00:56:54.392 --> 00:56:55.992
<v SPEAKER_1>I want to buy the same stuff.

00:56:55.992 --> 00:56:59.152
<v SPEAKER_1>Because once I find something that I like, I don't want to shop around.

00:56:59.152 --> 00:57:02.832
<v SPEAKER_1>I want the thing that I like, that I know I can trust, and that's it.

00:57:02.852 --> 00:57:05.192
<v SPEAKER_1>I am very brand loyal.

00:57:05.192 --> 00:57:07.452
<v SPEAKER_1>But at the same time, there's no moral duty.

00:57:07.452 --> 00:57:14.272
<v SPEAKER_1>The moral duty and the use of the word colloquially to describe affinity are completely separable.

00:57:14.272 --> 00:57:24.832
<v SPEAKER_1>And the hard part is that we as men, in these situations where tumult is arising, because of false teaching, we have to understand that the affinity and the duty are separable.

00:57:24.832 --> 00:57:26.272
<v SPEAKER_1>They're completely separable.

00:57:27.432 --> 00:57:29.312
<v SPEAKER_1>If you have affinity for something, that's great.

00:57:29.312 --> 00:57:31.632
<v SPEAKER_1>Stick with it as long as you can.

00:57:31.632 --> 00:57:38.252
<v SPEAKER_1>But that is a subscription to something that only goes so far as it's actually a valid thing.

00:57:38.252 --> 00:57:42.852
<v SPEAKER_1>When you're betrayed, because God is betrayed, you know, it's not about personal betrayal.

00:57:42.852 --> 00:57:49.912
<v SPEAKER_1>When you believe that someone was a sound teacher, and it turns out that he's not, whatever duty you thought that you had has ended.

00:57:49.912 --> 00:57:55.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Because your loyalty was only a matter of affinity for the proper teaching to which you actually have duty.

00:57:55.712 --> 00:57:59.172
<v SPEAKER_1>Again, your duty is always rooted to God in these matters.

00:57:59.172 --> 00:58:01.852
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything else is best effort.

00:58:01.852 --> 00:58:04.112
<v SPEAKER_1>Everything else is what is the best case.

00:58:04.132 --> 00:58:09.312
<v SPEAKER_1>And that's the blessing of having good teachers who continue to deliver their entire lives.

00:58:09.312 --> 00:58:13.032
<v SPEAKER_1>It's incredibly rare, because it's incredibly difficult.

00:58:13.032 --> 00:58:15.892
<v SPEAKER_1>Most men will fall short in all sorts of ways.

00:58:15.892 --> 00:58:26.852
<v SPEAKER_1>And seemingly, the further some men go along, the worse they get, because the greater the popularity or influence or whatever, there are additional pressures that weren't there when they were unknown.

00:58:26.852 --> 00:58:34.192
<v SPEAKER_1>You as an individual, you as a husband, as a father, with a wife and children, with your household, you answer to God for them.

00:58:34.192 --> 00:58:40.092
<v SPEAKER_1>You answer to God for when they're misled, because you let unsound influences into their lives.

00:58:40.092 --> 00:58:47.292
<v SPEAKER_1>So make sure that you're loyal in the right circumstances, and make sure that you reserve affinity for the things that are morally optional.

00:58:47.972 --> 00:58:50.212
<v SPEAKER_1>That's the sum total of this episode.

00:58:50.212 --> 00:58:54.952
<v SPEAKER_1>You don't have a moral obligation to something that's just a matter of, I like it.

00:58:54.952 --> 00:59:00.432
<v SPEAKER_1>And when doctrine is involved, when right teaching is involved, that is a vertical relationship with God.

00:59:00.432 --> 00:59:03.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And whoever is doing it the best, you give them your business.

00:59:03.712 --> 00:59:09.892
<v SPEAKER_1>I'm not trying to be economically reductive about churches, but to some degree, that's kind of where we are.

00:59:09.892 --> 00:59:16.292
<v SPEAKER_1>We find churches coming and going, getting bits and pieces of things right here and there, and then getting other things wrong.

00:59:16.712 --> 00:59:18.652
<v SPEAKER_1>In some cases, horribly wrong.

00:59:18.652 --> 00:59:27.512
<v SPEAKER_1>In some cases, even the things that they used to get right, they then throw away for the sake of another modern gospel that's not from God.

00:59:27.512 --> 00:59:30.072
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to be aware, we have to pay attention.

00:59:30.072 --> 00:59:33.252
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to some degree be ruthless editors.

00:59:33.252 --> 00:59:36.692
<v SPEAKER_1>We have to detect when the milk has gone bad.

00:59:36.692 --> 00:59:41.852
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, when it's past the expiration date, it's probably fine to eat it and drink it for a few days, but you smell it.

00:59:41.852 --> 00:59:45.132
<v SPEAKER_1>In the second you get a whiff of something that's sour, you pour it out.

00:59:46.012 --> 00:59:47.632
<v SPEAKER_1>That's what we're saying here.

00:59:47.632 --> 00:59:50.132
<v SPEAKER_1>Men shouldn't be going sour, but they do.

00:59:50.132 --> 00:59:58.712
<v SPEAKER_1>And we must acknowledge it because we have a duty to God, to our families, to our communities, to be guardians insofar as we have been given the gifts to do so.

00:59:58.712 --> 01:00:03.772
<v SPEAKER_1>And when men come along and change the tune, there's no loyalty.

01:00:03.772 --> 01:00:06.432
<v SPEAKER_1>There's an affinity for something that no longer exists.

01:00:06.432 --> 01:00:12.912
<v SPEAKER_1>And we must recognize that the only honorable course of action is to seek those answers elsewhere.