Transcript: Episode 0010

“Speaking the Truth Plainly”

This transcript:
  1. Was machine generated.
  2. Has not been checked for errors.
  3. May not be entirely accurate.
WEBVTT

00:00:00 – 00:00:20:	Ah uh, cool.

00:00:20 – 00:00:44:	Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast. I am Corey J. Moller, and I'm low.

00:00:44 – 00:00:50:	What problem are you trying to solve? Anyone who's been friends with me for any

00:00:50 – 00:00:54:	length of time has probably heard me ask that question more than once. Probably

00:00:54 – 00:01:00:	dreads hearing it. If you come to me with a problem or a question or even if with

00:01:00 – 00:01:03:	any air shot you're complaining about something there's a decent chance that

00:01:03 – 00:01:08:	eventually I will ask you what problem are you trying to solve. Today we're

00:01:08 – 00:01:13:	gonna apply that question to a couple different circumstances that are part of

00:01:13 – 00:01:17:	the Christian experience. As part of our Christian lives we are we're called

00:01:17 – 00:01:22:	to testify to our faith to others and we're called to discuss our faith with

00:01:22 – 00:01:26:	others within the church. So outside of the church to those who are unbelievers

00:01:26 – 00:01:31:	and inside the church to those who do have faith, but me they come from

00:01:31 – 00:01:37:	differing beliefs. So the first scenario we're going to discuss in the first

00:01:37 – 00:01:44:	half of the episode is how do you discuss your faith with an unbeliever? And the

00:01:44 – 00:01:47:	reason I want to frame that in terms of what question are you trying to solve?

00:01:47 – 00:01:53:	Is that it's Christians we want to ultimately share the good news of the

00:01:53 – 00:01:58:	gospel. Namely that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross because we know

00:01:58 – 00:02:04:	that there's nothing we can do to pay for our sins. But for an unbeliever those

00:02:04 – 00:02:07:	there are a lot of assumptions packed into that that they don't follow. They

00:02:07 – 00:02:12:	don't have the gimmons given that we have. So to tell them Jesus died for your sins

00:02:12 – 00:02:17:	sort of as the intro it's kind of like reading the last page of a novel to

00:02:17 – 00:02:22:	someone. They don't care like they're not invested in any of it. So you gave

00:02:22 – 00:02:26:	them a fact why does it how's it connected to them. So we're gonna talk about

00:02:26 – 00:02:33:	how to in some cases discuss your faith with people in a way that you wouldn't

00:02:33 – 00:02:38:	necessarily think of normally and it's going to challenge all of us to think

00:02:38 – 00:02:43:	about Christian life in areas where we don't normally think about it. In areas

00:02:43 – 00:02:47:	that don't typically apply to faith when you're looking at them and we'll give

00:02:47 – 00:02:51:	some examples. The second half of the episode we're going to talk about something

00:02:51 – 00:02:54:	that's blown up on Twitter for the last couple weeks but it's a very good

00:02:54 – 00:03:01:	example of how within the church it's possible to not ask the question what

00:03:01 – 00:03:06:	problem am I trying to solve before you start arguing with someone or start

00:03:06 – 00:03:10:	correcting someone or start trying to manage the words that someone's using in

00:03:10 – 00:03:16:	such a way that you can actually do more harm than good because you didn't

00:03:16 – 00:03:20:	understand where they were coming from and so you were trying to solve the wrong

00:03:20 – 00:03:25:	problem. So we're gonna talk about listening better and about unwinding back to

00:03:25 – 00:03:30:	what's going on to begin with so that you can communicate clearly but you don't

00:03:30 – 00:03:36:	do harm in attempting to do so because if you can't communicate without doing

00:03:36 – 00:03:39:	harm then you should keep your mouth shut. That's that's always an option for

00:03:39 – 00:03:46:	anyone. Ironic for the jerk with a microphone to say but that's honestly

00:03:46 – 00:03:50:	something that's an important part of the Christian life too and as I've

00:03:50 – 00:03:53:	said in pass-up so there's times when I do keep my mouth shut but not right

00:03:53 – 00:03:59:	now, not for the next hour. So the first scenario we're gonna talk about is you

00:03:59 – 00:04:05:	say in the workplace you have a coworker who you're having lunch with him and

00:04:05 – 00:04:11:	he confides in you that his teenage boy has fallen under the spell of some

00:04:11 – 00:04:15:	friends. He's fallen in new friends and there's influences getting in his

00:04:15 – 00:04:21:	social circle that amounts to pressuring him to do drugs but it's not the

00:04:21 – 00:04:25:	drugs that maybe you or your parents' generations are familiar with. I'm not

00:04:25 – 00:04:29:	talking about party drugs talking about hormone replacement therapy. His

00:04:29 – 00:04:33:	friends don't want him to get high on cocaine or smoke marijuana. His friends

00:04:33 – 00:04:39:	want him to inject estrogen into his body so that he will grow breasts and so

00:04:39 – 00:04:45:	that he will lose his facial hair and he's going to want to have his genitals

00:04:45 – 00:04:49:	surgically removed because he's been convinced that he wants to be a girl or

00:04:49 – 00:04:52:	that he is a girl and it's the only way to realize that is through the

00:04:52 – 00:04:58:	application of science and so you as a Christian are sitting there listening to

00:04:58 – 00:05:05:	this horror story from this man and the question that the reason I'm raising the

00:05:05 – 00:05:10:	question what problem are you trying to solve is that I think that today is

00:05:10 – 00:05:15:	Christians as we're looking at the decaying world as we're looking at things

00:05:15 – 00:05:19:	like that man is suffering and you know this this hypothetical conversation the

00:05:19 – 00:05:23:	other person is not a Christian so he's he's completely at a loss not only is

00:05:23 – 00:05:31:	he bereft and beside himself suffering for the future of his son but he doesn't

00:05:31 – 00:05:37:	have a frame of reference for how something so terrible could happen and if

00:05:37 – 00:05:41:	you're a Christian you're listening to this podcast you're you're going to be

00:05:41 – 00:05:44:	a conservative you're probably very conservative again that's not a great

00:05:44 – 00:05:52:	word but you know we mean we say that as conservatives we are fond of calling

00:05:52 – 00:05:57:	this the culture war or calling it wokeism or you know maybe if you've done

00:05:57 – 00:06:02:	some more sophisticated digging into the genealogy these ideas you'll call it

00:06:02 – 00:06:07:	cultural Marxism or just Marxism and to some extent all of those things are

00:06:07 – 00:06:12:	true but as we talked about in the frame episode it's not the frame that the

00:06:12 – 00:06:18:	Christian should bring to the discussion because what is implicit in all of

00:06:18 – 00:06:24:	those characterizations is in the case of calling something woke you're saying

00:06:24 – 00:06:29:	effectively it's you're being derisive where you're being dismissive saying

00:06:29 – 00:06:33:	that well those guys are just being silly it's you know kind of implying that

00:06:33 – 00:06:37:	it's a phase the yeah this world's really crazy right now I don't know what's

00:06:37 – 00:06:42:	going on this is a bunch of wild cultural stuff or if you want to call it

00:06:42 – 00:06:46:	Marxism you can maybe get closer to the root that there's something bad

00:06:46 – 00:06:50:	happening but you're thinking of it even as a Christian is bad in terms of

00:06:50 – 00:06:54:	good ideas or bad ideas and which ones are going to win in the marketplace of

00:06:54 – 00:07:01:	ideas so what I want you to think about is that the question that you should be

00:07:01 – 00:07:05:	asking and the way that you should frame your response to anyone who's coming

00:07:05 – 00:07:12:	to you describing their suffering in the world is to avoid discussing it in

00:07:12 – 00:07:17:	terms that don't starkly speak of good and evil because fundamentally that's

00:07:17 – 00:07:23:	what this is the fact that that man's son has fallen under the spell of this

00:07:23 – 00:07:29:	destruction is satanic for a for anyone to be convinced that he should destroy

00:07:29 – 00:07:35:	his body it's three things that Satan's doing first Satan has robbed him as of

00:07:35 – 00:07:39:	his faith have he ever had it because no Christian is ever going to decide to

00:07:39 – 00:07:45:	change their sex it's an impossibility to reject the body that God gave you is

00:07:45 – 00:07:50:	to have already rejected your creator it's to say I hate you God you don't

00:07:50 – 00:07:54:	exist this is my body I'm gonna do it I want so the faith has already been lost

00:07:54 – 00:07:59:	before they even get to that point and then Satan destroys their minds by

00:07:59 – 00:08:04:	convincing them of these lies that yes I was born a boy but now I'm a girl and

00:08:04 – 00:08:10:	so I need to fix that and the fix is the third act of destruction by Satan and

00:08:10 – 00:08:14:	that is the destruction of the body so the soul and in the mind and in the body

00:08:14 – 00:08:19:	are destroyed and in a case of transsexuals are those who who mutilate their

00:08:19 – 00:08:25:	bodies to pretend to be the other sex the suicide rate is over 40% for those

00:08:25 – 00:08:33:	people and when that is admitted by those who will advocate those acts they're

00:08:33 – 00:08:38:	not saying it to say wow maybe this is a really bad place to take someone the

00:08:38 – 00:08:41:	excuses that will these people are misunderstood and they're bullied and

00:08:41 – 00:08:45:	that's why they're killing themselves no the suicide rate is so high because

00:08:45 – 00:08:50:	that is the final act of Satan in this act of destruction begins with the soul

00:08:50 – 00:08:54:	then the mind and then the body and he doesn't care what order he does it in but

00:08:54 – 00:08:58:	that's the order that happens in this case and the destruction of the body through

00:08:58 – 00:09:05:	mutilation and then through self murder ultimately ensures damnation because

00:09:05 – 00:09:09:	even someone who has suffered through that sort of demonic oppression there's

00:09:09 – 00:09:12:	still hope for them as long as they draw breath doesn't matter what you've done

00:09:12 – 00:09:16:	to your body it doesn't matter what you've done in your life you can be

00:09:16 – 00:09:21:	redeemed and so Christians know that but we also know that there's evil that's

00:09:21 – 00:09:26:	causing these things and so when we say well that's that's a woke that's crazy

00:09:26 – 00:09:32:	that's cultural and we can't say that's evil we're fundamentally betraying the

00:09:32 – 00:09:39:	faith we're in effect as Christians providing cover for Satan to run wild in

00:09:39 – 00:09:43:	the world because the only people who are gonna call him out who are gonna shine

00:09:43 – 00:09:47:	light and say look at what Satan is doing look at this evil we're the only ones

00:09:47 – 00:09:51:	who know that and can see that authoritatively they're non-believers who

00:09:51 – 00:09:55:	can see it's evil but they don't know what evil means they it's more

00:09:55 – 00:10:00:	relativistic to them we know that there's absolute good and evil and so we

00:10:00 – 00:10:06:	must learn as Christians to make sure that when we see evil in the world that's

00:10:06 – 00:10:11:	that's what we call it because I said to discuss your faith with someone in this

00:10:11 – 00:10:16:	century it's not gonna begin with talking about Jesus it's going to begin with

00:10:16 – 00:10:20:	pointing to the evil in the world that you share with your neighbor and then

00:10:20 – 00:10:25:	helping to frame that evil that you suffering from in terms of the Christian

00:10:25 – 00:10:31:	faith that you want to be his as well some unbelievers do see some of this more

00:10:31 – 00:10:37:	clearly than Christians because much of this is not only immoral not only

00:10:37 – 00:10:42:	against the moral law but it's against nature and in particular some pagans

00:10:42 – 00:10:48:	actually do better with the against nature the continental arguments then

00:10:48 – 00:10:52:	some Christians do and so when it comes to things like transsexualism they

00:10:52 – 00:10:57:	will look at that and viscerally understand that is contrary to nature and so

00:10:57 – 00:11:03:	they'll call it evil which they're right they just don't understand why it's

00:11:03 – 00:11:07:	necessarily evil and the source of that evil and so it depends on the person

00:11:07 – 00:11:12:	with whom you're speaking for a pagan who already recognizes the evil you can

00:11:12 – 00:11:17:	explain well I can tell you why it's evil and the source of that evil and so

00:11:17 – 00:11:21:	that can be a way you can open up that conversation and maybe get somewhere but

00:11:21 – 00:11:27:	you mentioned the the order in which this particular new it's actually not a

00:11:27 – 00:11:32:	new evil because this existed back in cult prostitution in ancient times but it's

00:11:32 – 00:11:38:	a recurrent evil it's new for recent times soul mind and body it's really the

00:11:38 – 00:11:42:	inversion of what happens with most drugs because most drugs destroy the body

00:11:42 – 00:11:46:	then there's addiction that follows on which is a destruction of the mind and

00:11:46 – 00:11:52:	ultimately despair which is the destruction of the soul Satan found a way to do

00:11:52 – 00:11:58:	it in reverse which is quite effective unfortunately but one of the other

00:11:58 – 00:12:05:	problems when dealing with Christians who say you know it's just woke or it's

00:12:05 – 00:12:09:	liberal or leftist or and I'm not saying it's not necessarily those things

00:12:09 – 00:12:14:	because it is indeed those things although I think the term woke is terribly

00:12:14 – 00:12:20:	stupid I wouldn't really use it you're making it sound like Christianity is one

00:12:20 – 00:12:26:	solution among many and it lends a sort of legitimacy it's a framing issue it

00:12:26 – 00:12:31:	lends legitimacy to the other side to Satan and his minions that they do not have

00:12:31 – 00:12:37:	you're saying well my view is better the way that I look at the world has more

00:12:37 – 00:12:43:	explanatory power or is x y and z and so you should really believe my view no you

00:12:43 – 00:12:48:	should believe what Christians believe because it's true it's not one

00:12:48 – 00:12:53:	competing view among many it is the only solution it is the only truth and so it

00:12:53 – 00:12:59:	matters how you frame these things if you make it sound like it is just politics

00:12:59 – 00:13:04:	if you make it sound like your solution is one among many you've already

00:13:04 – 00:13:09:	seated the field in a way that has probably fatally undermined any chance you

00:13:09 – 00:13:14:	have a really getting through to that person with the law and then the gospel

00:13:14 – 00:13:20:	because of course you have to have the law first you're exactly right and

00:13:20 – 00:13:27:	that's it's a case that as we've talked about in previous episodes what

00:13:27 – 00:13:30:	Satan is doing to the world in this century and beginning in the last

00:13:30 – 00:13:39:	century century is to attack creation itself Satan's not going after Jesus died

00:13:39 – 00:13:45:	for you anymore I mean he does but he doesn't even need to go there because

00:13:45 – 00:13:50:	Christendom is dead there's no there's no more Christianity built into

00:13:50 – 00:13:55:	society Christianity itself is dying as a part of the nations that have hosted

00:13:55 – 00:14:01:	it for thousands of years and so he doesn't have to go after how are you saved

00:14:01 – 00:14:07:	he's going after what you are and turning people from men and women who were

00:14:07 – 00:14:15:	made men who are made in the image of God into self-actualized not creatures

00:14:15 – 00:14:20:	because creature implies creator he's saying you are your own person you can be

00:14:20 – 00:14:24:	whatever you want to be if you want to be a dog you can be a dog and this is

00:14:24 – 00:14:30:	something happening before the zoomer generation now where younger kids are

00:14:30 – 00:14:35:	actually being convinced that they can be animals and they're living their lives

00:14:35 – 00:14:40:	in school in some cases as animals where they will dress up like an animal in

00:14:40 – 00:14:44:	school they will not sit in a chair they have to sit on their dog bed and the

00:14:44 – 00:14:50:	teachers are required to tolerate this behavior to not interfere with their

00:14:50 – 00:14:55:	self-realization of their identity as a dog or a cat or whatever they're doing

00:14:55 – 00:15:02:	and as an adult who is not paying attention to what's going on when you hear

00:15:02 – 00:15:07:	these things you think instinctively that's just crazy and yes it is crazy

00:15:07 – 00:15:13:	like 150 years ago these sorts of things would periodically pop up but they

00:15:13 – 00:15:18:	were either in people who were directly an overly demon possessed or oppressed

00:15:18 – 00:15:22:	or clinically insane if there can be if you can say there's any difference

00:15:22 – 00:15:26:	between those two I don't know that there is but even assuming for the sake of

00:15:26 – 00:15:29:	argument they're not the same thing those are the only categories of people who

00:15:29 – 00:15:34:	would ever think I'm a dog you need to treat me like a dog today there's so

00:15:34 – 00:15:39:	many kids doing it the schools have to have policies around it now that's their

00:15:39 – 00:15:43:	generation the people aren't seeing yet because they're too young really to have

00:15:43 – 00:15:46:	a lot of this stuff videotape and show up on the internet but it's happening

00:15:46 – 00:15:56:	and it's coming and so again Satan is destroying creation itself both by the

00:15:56 – 00:16:02:	pollution and the destruction of the physical world and by convincing man to

00:16:02 – 00:16:07:	destroy himself and he's man is destroying himself by denying how God made

00:16:07 – 00:16:13:	him so we spend a lot of time talking about how God made us as men for

00:16:13 – 00:16:17:	this very reason you know we've we've alluded to race numerous times as a future

00:16:17 – 00:16:21:	episode we're gonna do an episode soon where we go into it in depth and it's

00:16:21 – 00:16:25:	not because we think race is that important or interesting honestly I find it

00:16:25 – 00:16:29:	a tedious and boring topic it's not gonna be a tedious and boring episode

00:16:29 – 00:16:32:	because it's pregnant light your hair on fire you're gonna hear some things

00:16:32 – 00:16:37:	you've never heard and it's probably gonna make you pretty mad and that's also

00:16:37 – 00:16:40:	now why we're talking about we're talking about it because it's true the way

00:16:40 – 00:16:45:	that God made the races is a real thing and so it was not a coincidence that

00:16:45 – 00:16:50:	before Satan convinced people to deny that they were human or to deny that

00:16:50 – 00:16:54:	they were men and women he got everyone including a lot of Christians denying

00:16:54 – 00:16:59:	that God made you as an African or as a European or as an Asian those aren't

00:16:59 – 00:17:04:	things those are social categories they're superficial they're not real God

00:17:04 – 00:17:09:	didn't do that and that was a small crack in the door but all of the rest of

00:17:09 – 00:17:14:	the stuff is plowed right through it so when we discuss these things again it's

00:17:14 – 00:17:19:	not because we think like oh well race is the foundation of the faith no it has

00:17:19 – 00:17:24:	nothing to do with it except that it's how God operates in our lives to create

00:17:24 – 00:17:30:	us and when you concede that well you're just a generic human being well why

00:17:30 – 00:17:34:	aren't I just a generic human being that's sexless how how is that dichotomy

00:17:34 – 00:17:40:	possibly tolerated in a world where all of these other differentiations that

00:17:40 – 00:17:44:	are physically observable and scientifically demonstrable if those can be

00:17:44 – 00:17:48:	discarded well you can't tell me I'm not a woman I'm a woman I feel like a

00:17:48 – 00:17:51:	woman I have a woman's thoughts and a woman's needs you can't tell me

00:17:51 – 00:17:56:	otherwise you lose the moral high ground and you lose any credibility as a

00:17:56 – 00:18:01:	Christian if you lie about one you've lost the ability to speak truthfully

00:18:01 – 00:18:04:	about the other and we've seen that play out in history as you mentioned that

00:18:04 – 00:18:10:	is exactly what happened you have the attack on it really happens sort of

00:18:10 – 00:18:16:	simultaneously but the attack on the reality of human race took off more

00:18:16 – 00:18:21:	effectively earlier and then you had following on the attack on male and female

00:18:21 – 00:18:26:	so you have the denial of the distinction the differences between the

00:18:26 – 00:18:30:	races of men and the very existence of them initially that's not of course

00:18:30 – 00:18:34:	where they started but today that is what you see you see it all the time

00:18:34 – 00:18:38:	people will deny that race is real they will say that it is as you mentioned

00:18:38 – 00:18:44:	merely a social construct merely a reporting category for the census I saw

00:18:44 – 00:18:48:	someone actually argue that I didn't follow it because I didn't want to go

00:18:48 – 00:18:56:	insane but the attack was first on that and then it immediately followed well

00:18:56 – 00:19:00:	if there's no difference between among the races of men then there's no real

00:19:00 – 00:19:03:	difference between men and women and that's where you get the 19th amendment

00:19:03 – 00:19:07:	and before that in Europe you get all of the countries permitting women to

00:19:07 – 00:19:12:	vote and run for office and do all these various things because as soon as you

00:19:12 – 00:19:18:	give up any of these truths about creation you've lost all of them it's just a

00:19:18 – 00:19:23:	matter of time you already gave Satan the foot in the door you opened the door

00:19:23 – 00:19:29:	for him and let him walk into the room he is going to own everything before he's

00:19:29 – 00:19:35:	done unless he's stopped today he is attacking still male and female because the

00:19:35 – 00:19:41:	goal is to completely destroy that distinction but he's moving on as well

00:19:41 – 00:19:44:	that's why as mentioned you have people who say no I'm actually not a human I'm a

00:19:44 – 00:19:51:	dog or a cat you have officers in our military posting pictures of themselves on

00:19:51 – 00:19:57:	social media in fur suits this is not something that is in the closet or under

00:19:57 – 00:20:01:	the rug or now this is out in the open happening before the eyes of the world

00:20:01 – 00:20:06:	Satan is not subtle he doesn't need to be subtle because Christians have

00:20:06 – 00:20:11:	abandoned the field and I think most people listening probably don't know what

00:20:11 – 00:20:17:	fur suits are and I don't I don't want to tell you but it's the again back to

00:20:17 – 00:20:22:	the the term woke ism and woke you're right it's it I please do not go for your

00:20:22 – 00:20:28:	own sanity don't don't look it up you don't need to know just it's horrible it's

00:20:28 – 00:20:34:	horrible it's depraved it's evil it's degenerate and it's normal today in the

00:20:34 – 00:20:42:	sense that it happens and you can't stop it or you will be arrested and so as

00:20:42 – 00:20:47:	Christians the reason that I want to focus on what problem are you trying to

00:20:47 – 00:20:51:	solve when you're talking to people whether it's a coworker or you know

00:20:51 – 00:20:56:	maybe it's an extended family member who is seeing the horrors happening in the

00:20:56 – 00:21:00:	world the reason that we I mentioned race and we're talking about a couple of

00:21:00 – 00:21:06:	these things is for the fact that people who aren't Christians can see that

00:21:06 – 00:21:11:	these things are evil they can look at them and see that is as Cory's you said

00:21:11 – 00:21:17:	it is contrary to nature on its face plainly Christians have lost the

00:21:17 – 00:21:21:	ability to say that we're afraid to say that now because Satan can

00:21:21 – 00:21:26:	bins Christians judge not means that you can't point at something an evil and

00:21:26 – 00:21:31:	say it's evil when scripture directly commands us to do that very thing if you

00:21:31 – 00:21:37:	cannot point to evil and say that's evil you're not a Christian period if you

00:21:37 – 00:21:40:	can't say something's evil you're not a Christian well if you're not calling it

00:21:40 – 00:21:48:	evil you are tacitly calling it good exactly woe to those who call evil good and

00:21:48 – 00:21:54:	good evil scripture is not subtle about this it's very clear and so as we

00:21:54 – 00:21:57:	discuss these things with friends and family whether it's in person or on the

00:21:57 – 00:22:02:	internet or whatever you're going to talk to people who do not have faith they

00:22:02 – 00:22:06:	don't know Jesus they don't know God they don't know about justification they

00:22:06 – 00:22:12:	know that the world is evil and this is the this is God opening the door for us

00:22:12 – 00:22:18:	to share our faith with them but we don't begin I humbly submit I'm not saying

00:22:18 – 00:22:22:	you can never talk about Jesus we have to get to talking about Jesus I would

00:22:22 – 00:22:28:	humbly submit to you consider that you don't begin by talking about Jesus when

00:22:28 – 00:22:33:	someone says why is my child mutilating himself why are my neighbors pretending

00:22:33 – 00:22:38:	to be dogs and doing obscene things in the yard and the police won't stop them

00:22:38 – 00:22:44:	why is this happening if you use a Christian you know your Tucker Carlson

00:22:44 – 00:22:49:	listener or whatever like if you call these things woke if you say that they're

00:22:49 – 00:22:55:	cultural warfare if as Cory said if you say that well maybe Christianity has a

00:22:55 – 00:23:00:	better explanation for what's going on you're never gonna make any impact in

00:23:00 – 00:23:03:	that person's life because that's the same equivocation and the same

00:23:03 – 00:23:09:	godlessness that they see defining the very people who are destroying things if

00:23:09 – 00:23:15:	you can come to someone who is horrified by the evil in the world and I think

00:23:15 – 00:23:21:	one of the things that Christians need to get comfortable with is being

00:23:21 – 00:23:25:	strategic about how we share our faith so for example I have I have numerous

00:23:25 – 00:23:31:	friends who are not Christians they're they're good friends they're loyal they're

00:23:31 – 00:23:38:	funny they are sincere and they're honest and they some of them don't have faith

00:23:38 – 00:23:44:	there are few who when I share my faith with them in whatever context or even

00:23:44 – 00:23:49:	just if something comes up they will go out of their way to blaspheme and say

00:23:49 – 00:23:53:	ha ha I can't believe you fall for this crap and they'll say terrible things

00:23:53 – 00:23:57:	about God and so I try not to instigate situations where they would do that

00:23:57 – 00:24:02:	because I don't want them to be sitting because I go to them into it but at the

00:24:02 – 00:24:08:	same time when situations arise where I can point to my faith and say look I

00:24:08 – 00:24:12:	know you think this is silly I know you don't believe it I know you think it's

00:24:12 – 00:24:17:	stupid I'm going to tell you anyway why I think that Christianity that my

00:24:17 – 00:24:22:	faith that my godly understanding of the world is relevant to this situation and

00:24:22 – 00:24:26:	you can say up front I know you're going to think I'm stupid I know that I

00:24:26 – 00:24:30:	have friends who think I'm retarded because I believe in skydady and I don't

00:24:30 – 00:24:36:	care because you know what every time they insult me and say that stuff when

00:24:36 – 00:24:39:	I don't respond in kind and I just continue to share what I know and

00:24:39 – 00:24:45:	whatever small way I can in the moment that is demonstrating my faith too even

00:24:45 – 00:24:48:	if they don't care they don't believe anything I say the fact that I can

00:24:48 – 00:24:54:	respond in a way that is consistent and tries to be supportive of doing

00:24:54 – 00:24:59:	something good will stand out to someone even if they reject the message and

00:24:59 – 00:25:03:	you never know how the Holy Spirit's going to work in someone's life I think

00:25:03 – 00:25:09:	that we know as Christians intellectually but we don't necessarily internalize

00:25:09 – 00:25:15:	it that we are planting God's seeds and he will give the growth we don't know

00:25:15 – 00:25:21:	what's going to happen all we can do is speak truthfully and truthfully as I've

00:25:21 – 00:25:26:	said as we've said numerous times is all truth it's not just truth about John

00:25:26 – 00:25:32:	316 I say John 316 all the time not because I don't love that verse I love

00:25:32 – 00:25:38:	it dearly it's the perfect encapsulation of why we are Christians but it's not

00:25:38 – 00:25:42:	an explanation for why someone would be Christian if they don't already know

00:25:42 – 00:25:46:	why they need to be Christian you know we've talked before about the law

00:25:46 – 00:25:52:	gospel distinction the gospel is incoherent to someone who doesn't think

00:25:52 – 00:25:56:	they're a sinner who doesn't think they have a creator so the first hurdle you

00:25:56 – 00:26:00:	need to cross with someone is not let me tell you how Jesus died for your sins

00:26:00 – 00:26:08:	it's let me connect your lived experience to use the Marxist term let me let me

00:26:08 – 00:26:14:	use your life let me use what you're suffering in this world to connect you

00:26:14 – 00:26:19:	to your creator whom you do not know and if you can make even that one small

00:26:19 – 00:26:24:	connection maybe you can't talk about Jesus that day that's fine if you can

00:26:24 – 00:26:29:	plan a seed that will grow a little bit if you can nail them down on one

00:26:29 – 00:26:35:	simple concession to your frame to your your Christian worldview to use

00:26:35 – 00:26:39:	another terrible term but we're kind of stuck in a world where we have to use

00:26:39 – 00:26:43:	terrible terms because the good ones are dead and that's amusingly that's

00:26:43 – 00:26:49:	actually the subject for the second half of this episode but when we fail to

00:26:49 – 00:26:54:	realize that these struggles people face are spiritual that they have

00:26:54 – 00:26:58:	Satan behind them and that they have human beings acting in this life as

00:26:58 – 00:27:03:	say in the agents some of whom know and some of whom don't know they don't

00:27:03 – 00:27:08:	realize that they're serving Satan they just they're motivated by whatever has

00:27:08 – 00:27:13:	possessed them it's usually good intentions they're malformed intentions but

00:27:13 – 00:27:16:	they think they're doing good they think they're making the world a better

00:27:16 – 00:27:22:	place by denying creation and so when Christians can say what problem are you

00:27:22 – 00:27:29:	trying to solve by looking at the state of the world eventually you will have to

00:27:29 – 00:27:34:	unwind that conversation back to the source of good naval and the source of

00:27:34 – 00:27:40:	creation itself and how God's rules are baked into creation and how every time

00:27:40 – 00:27:47:	we physically and spiritually and mentally deviate from what God has ordained we

00:27:47 – 00:27:51:	suffer in this life we suffer temporal consequences for the sin of

00:27:51 – 00:27:58:	disbelief of not doing the things that God has ordered the world to function and

00:27:59 – 00:28:04:	as we're talking about this today I realize that this is probably not the way

00:28:04 – 00:28:07:	that most people are listening you probably don't look at the world this way

00:28:07 – 00:28:11:	you probably think more in terms of culture war you don't want to think about

00:28:11 – 00:28:17:	evil and especially the sort of existential looming evil that is ravenous and

00:28:17 – 00:28:22:	is all consuming and all destructive that's too much for most people to bear

00:28:22 – 00:28:28:	that's understandable but if you want to share the gospel in this year with

00:28:28 – 00:28:33:	people who are facing that devouring lion you're going to have to face the

00:28:33 – 00:28:37:	existential evil even if it's in a small way even if it's in a conversation

00:28:37 – 00:28:42:	that's limited and so I'm encouraging people to just think about this because if

00:28:42 – 00:28:46:	we're not looking at the world through spiritual eyes we can't describe it in

00:28:46 – 00:28:50:	that way we if we can see the frame that this is just it's culture war man I

00:28:50 – 00:28:55:	hope I hope the good culture wins in the bad culture loses if you've taken good

00:28:55 – 00:29:02:	evil off the table you cannot speak as a Christian and that's a terrible

00:29:02 – 00:29:06:	thing because that that that's an opportunity that God's given you and someone

00:29:06 – 00:29:13:	else's life to tell the truth and if if you can't do it even in a small way that

00:29:13 – 00:29:17:	person's just going to go on like nothing ever happened but it was it it was a

00:29:17 – 00:29:21:	change that occurred in that in that timeline where in the other direction if

00:29:21 – 00:29:26:	you've been able to mount a forceful clear defense of what God wants for the

00:29:26 – 00:29:29:	world even knowing that they don't believe in God yet it's fine for you to talk

00:29:29 – 00:29:33:	about God and say I understand that you don't believe this is true but if you

00:29:33 – 00:29:36:	don't mind you can be you can act a little bit embarrassed about it that's fine

00:29:36 – 00:29:41:	and you can say if God is real that's not a denial of God in conversation for

00:29:41 – 00:29:47:	you to say if you're offering an alternative to what they already believe so

00:29:47 – 00:29:51:	you're not making things any worse what you're doing is enticing the other

00:29:51 – 00:29:57:	person to concede for a moment the possibility that maybe you have something

00:29:57 – 00:30:01:	that's explanatory for what is ailing them because the thing that's ailing

00:30:01 – 00:30:05:	them while it is ultimately sin they're not going to get that until they get a

00:30:05 – 00:30:11:	lot of other givens taken out of the way first and it is worth noting that all

00:30:11 – 00:30:17:	men who do not have a seared conscience do believe in God they are suppressing

00:30:17 – 00:30:24:	it but they do actually believe in God and you're opening for many of these

00:30:24 – 00:30:29:	interactions is going to be if the other person is looking for an explanation

00:30:29 – 00:30:37:	for why the world is as it is that person is already tacitly admitted a belief

00:30:37 – 00:30:41:	in God he may not recognize that it's a belief in God but that is where that

00:30:41 – 00:30:48:	eventuates that is the end of that line of thought because if there's a reason

00:30:48 – 00:30:52:	there's a God we're not going to get into that today we're not going to explain

00:30:52 – 00:30:57:	all of the reasoning that gets you there but the alternative is to say there's

00:30:57 – 00:31:01:	no reason and then it's just a matter of preferences and this is one of the

00:31:01 – 00:31:06:	arguments of modern philosophy and modern ethics I just don't like that or I do

00:31:06 – 00:31:10:	like that if someone is speaking in those terms you're going to have more

00:31:10 – 00:31:13:	trouble because that person is saying there's no reason there's no

00:31:13 – 00:31:18:	ultimate meaning it's just preferences expressing themselves and catching

00:31:18 – 00:31:23:	on in groups in the group psychology etc but if someone is open to the idea

00:31:23 – 00:31:29:	that there may be a reason people behave the way they do things are the way

00:31:29 – 00:31:34:	they are our society has changed in the ways that it has changed that's your

00:31:34 – 00:31:39:	opening that's someone you can give him you can say well I know the reason I

00:31:39 – 00:31:44:	know why things are the way they are I know what the cause is it's evil and

00:31:44 – 00:31:49:	there's an alternative to that it's called God and so there's an opening for

00:31:49 – 00:31:54:	you there you just have to recognize that opening and know how to approach that

00:31:54 – 00:32:02:	person how to offer the information that you have that he needs there are

00:32:02 – 00:32:07:	something fundamentally fascinating that happened at the very beginning of the

00:32:07 – 00:32:14:	BLM riots that followed George Floyd's suicide in 2000 early on when BLM

00:32:14 – 00:32:19:	kicked off there were a few people who were the ring leaders who were the they

00:32:19 – 00:32:23:	were out in front they were collecting the funding they were shaping the

00:32:23 – 00:32:29:	messaging they were helping to orchestrate nationally both the violence and

00:32:29 – 00:32:35:	the public facing good parts of what they were trying to sell even while they

00:32:35 – 00:32:39:	were destroying our cities the fascinating thing that happened was that for a

00:32:39 – 00:32:48:	period of several months after the the BLM was formed and before this came to

00:32:48 – 00:32:55:	wide knowledge Black Lives Matter's website as part of their ethos page

00:32:55 – 00:32:59:	just a part of their about page talking about their motives they went far

00:32:59 – 00:33:06:	beyond racial justice and racial equity and the various other things that most

00:33:06 – 00:33:12:	naive observers thought that their so-called movement was about they went on on

00:33:12 – 00:33:18:	the very same page to say we are also here to topple the patriarchy we are here

00:33:18 – 00:33:24:	to topple heteronormativity we are here to topple the nuclear family and they

00:33:24 – 00:33:29:	went into depth on each of those why they wanted to destroy those foundational

00:33:29 – 00:33:36:	things now as a Christian who has thought about these things for some time and

00:33:36 – 00:33:41:	who has a proper understanding of what's actually going on it's no surprise at

00:33:41 – 00:33:45:	all that the people the same people who are shouting racial justice are

00:33:45 – 00:33:50:	shouting down with the patriarchy they're shouting up with homosexuality up with

00:33:50 – 00:33:57:	homosexuality with transgenerism for children shouting destroy the family let

00:33:57 – 00:34:02:	us have groups of individuals who are connected by bonds they have nothing to do

00:34:02 – 00:34:07:	with bloods whatsoever to the naive observer that sounds like just a random

00:34:07 – 00:34:11:	grab bag like that's all how did all those crazy woke things end up in the

00:34:11 – 00:34:16:	same place these guys are such lib tards that's what a lot of people thought what

00:34:16 – 00:34:22:	was actually going on was that all of those things including the racial aspect

00:34:22 – 00:34:28:	that was the top line item they're all part of the same attack the fact that

00:34:28 – 00:34:34:	patriarchy was second on the list was not a coincidence and so we're not going to

00:34:34 – 00:34:36:	get into that today we're we're going to we've talked about patriarchy and

00:34:36 – 00:34:40:	headship and past episodes and we'll connect it in some future ones as well but

00:34:40 – 00:34:47:	I want to I want to use that as an illustrative example of how something that

00:34:47 – 00:34:51:	if you're naive if you don't have spiritual eyes you can't really make sense of

00:34:51 – 00:34:55:	it like why do these people who are upset the cops are being mean to minorities

00:34:55 – 00:35:00:	why are they mad at the nuclear family and why do they want sawdemy for

00:35:00 – 00:35:05:	children that doesn't make any sense and on paper it doesn't unless you realize

00:35:05 – 00:35:10:	that the animating evil behind one of those things is the animating evil behind

00:35:10 – 00:35:16:	every one of those things and the overarching goal is the subversion of nature

00:35:16 – 00:35:22:	because Satan is already more or less one when it comes to the field of making

00:35:22 – 00:35:26:	the church irrelevant in modern society we can look at the numbers all day

00:35:26 – 00:35:32:	that say you know double digit whatever high double digit percentages claim to

00:35:32 – 00:35:37:	be Christian but when you actually get down into the real information there are

00:35:37 – 00:35:42:	very few Christians in the world and even in the places that are more Christian

00:35:42 – 00:35:47:	than most others there are very few actual Christians and that's just basic

00:35:47 – 00:35:53:	things in Christianity you know is Jesus the son of God is Jesus God is Jesus

00:35:53 – 00:35:58:	created and they give the wrong answers to these are not Christians but so the

00:35:58 – 00:36:03:	animation behind it the animating intelligence behind it is Satan and his goal

00:36:03 – 00:36:07:	is the subversion of nature and that's what all of these things have in common

00:36:07 – 00:36:11:	now as mentioned earlier there are some pagans and others who will recognize

00:36:11 – 00:36:16:	that all of these are against nature they're all perversions and so it makes

00:36:16 – 00:36:21:	sense that they're related many will not most will not recognize these things

00:36:21 – 00:36:27:	are related but every so often Satan slips up and he puts out a website that gives

00:36:27 – 00:36:34:	you his game plan it pays to pay attention when your enemy accidentally

00:36:34 – 00:36:40:	publishes his battle plan Satan telegraphs what he's going to do and we

00:36:40 – 00:36:45:	should pay attention to that because he is telling us what he hates and he hates

00:36:45 – 00:36:51:	all of the things that God loves and we need to take them seriously and that's

00:36:51 – 00:36:56:	why we're that's why we're attacking the concept of using culture war is any

00:36:56 – 00:36:59:	sort of frame of reference for what's going on if you think it's just

00:36:59 – 00:37:05:	cultural or it's just people being silly or stupid or unrealistic or impractical

00:37:05 – 00:37:11:	you will never see Satan's hand up their butt and it's there those people who

00:37:11 – 00:37:16:	are advocating those things even if they're in our churches they are agents of

00:37:16 – 00:37:20:	Satan when they're doing those things it doesn't mean that they don't do

00:37:20 – 00:37:24:	godly things on other days but when they're doing these things they're acting

00:37:24 – 00:37:31:	on behalf of Satan and me Satan said to Peter yeah in the in the Lutheran

00:37:31 – 00:37:35:	church and I think in many churches I just don't know of the others when

00:37:35 – 00:37:40:	someone is baptized as an infant their parents and sponsors will speak these

00:37:40 – 00:37:44:	words and when you're confirmed you you will speak these words again do you

00:37:44 – 00:37:50:	renounce the devil and all his works and all his ways and the Christian will

00:37:50 – 00:37:57:	respond I do renounce them we don't want to think about all his works and all

00:37:57 – 00:38:02:	his ways as modern Christians we want to renounce the devil but we don't want

00:38:02 – 00:38:07:	to pay attention to what his works and his ways are because you know what if if

00:38:07 – 00:38:12:	we unravel that too deeply we might find that the genealogy of some of our

00:38:12 – 00:38:17:	beliefs and some of our ideas traces back to something that isn't godly and I

00:38:17 – 00:38:20:	don't know how many people realize that either consciously or subconsciously

00:38:20 – 00:38:24:	but I can tell you for a fact that it's there and it's not only there in people

00:38:24 – 00:38:29:	who are casual it's there in people who are serious about their belief the

00:38:29 – 00:38:33:	guys up in Wyoming and Wyoming that are doing Luther classical college are

00:38:33 – 00:38:37:	doing fantastic work I'm very excited to see how that's coming together one

00:38:37 – 00:38:41:	thing that frightens me is that a lot of their discussion is framing things in

00:38:41 – 00:38:49:	terms of cultural more and how can we be in opposition to the culture and now

00:38:49 – 00:38:54:	when they go downstream a bit they'll focus on Jesus if you give the farm away

00:38:54 – 00:39:01:	by not explicitly condemning and damning the evil that is occurring you're

00:39:01 – 00:39:06:	not drawing a strong enough contrast and that's the reason that core you and I

00:39:06 – 00:39:13:	are viewed by most people as speaking so stridently I've had numerous

00:39:13 – 00:39:18:	people say to me on Twitter since I got on for the first time ever I expected

00:39:18 – 00:39:23:	you to be much angrier you sound normal you sound like a normal human being

00:39:23 – 00:39:29:	which is is funny like you know in 280 characters is so much you can do and so

00:39:29 – 00:39:36:	I've always been careful when I'm speaking online to speak clearly I don't

00:39:36 – 00:39:41:	care if I hurt your feelings if I've spoken clearly it's not my

00:39:41 – 00:39:46:	principal concern that you come away feeling good about the interaction it is

00:39:46 – 00:39:50:	my principal concern that you have clarity about what it is I'm trying to say

00:39:50 – 00:39:55:	which is the other topic we're going to get to in a couple minutes speaking

00:39:55 – 00:39:59:	unclearly is what Satan loves because it doesn't matter what you're speaking

00:39:59 – 00:40:05:	unclearly about see when these Christians categorize something as culture or

00:40:05 – 00:40:10:	or Marxist or woke those things are all true to a degree but they're not the

00:40:10 – 00:40:15:	final cause of what's going on and so when you can say something is just kind

00:40:15 – 00:40:20:	of silly you're providing cover for Satan even while you're condemning it see

00:40:20 – 00:40:24:	it's not that you didn't land on the right side of the issue it's that you

00:40:24 – 00:40:29:	landed on the right side so weakly that it has no impact on the observer

00:40:29 – 00:40:32:	because someone looking at the thing we'll say well that Christian doesn't

00:40:32 – 00:40:37:	seem that worked up about it I guess you know I think I care about this more

00:40:37 – 00:40:42:	than the Christian I think it's more evil than this Christian does why would

00:40:42 – 00:40:46:	why would that person who doesn't know God but they do know evil when they see

00:40:46 – 00:40:51:	it why would they ever listen to you as a lukewarm Christian who can't even

00:40:51 – 00:40:56:	condemn the evil that they do see when someone comes to you who's not a

00:40:56 – 00:41:00:	Christian who's left the faith or their weak in the faith or their absolute

00:41:00 – 00:41:04:	unbeliever if you can't stand right beside them shoulder to shoulder and say

00:41:04 – 00:41:09:	yes this is evil and I can tell you where this evil came from because there's

00:41:09 – 00:41:14:	more going on than meets the eye if you can do that you have at least had the

00:41:14 – 00:41:18:	door opened to have a conversation that will lead to a conversation about the

00:41:18 – 00:41:24:	gospel and about the saving work of Jesus if you're weaker on evil than they

00:41:24 – 00:41:28:	are in that moment they're not going to think you have any credibility when

00:41:28 – 00:41:32:	you try to bring it up elsewhere you're slamming the door on your own face if

00:41:32 – 00:41:36:	you can't condemn evil where it pops up and it's not going to pop up where you

00:41:36 – 00:41:40:	want it to it's going to be these things are called cultural it's getting

00:41:40 – 00:41:46:	to be these thorny issues like race and IQ and nationality things that are

00:41:46 – 00:41:51:	divisive because we've been lied to for so long in order to ensure that they're

00:41:51 – 00:41:55:	divisive the truth is not divisive except that it divides people who can discern

00:41:55 – 00:42:00:	the truth from those who can't for those who confuse truth with lies so the

00:42:00 – 00:42:08:	division is not caused by the tone of voice or by the clarity of speech it's

00:42:08 – 00:42:13:	caused fundamentally by the content and so when Corey and I speak and we

00:42:13 – 00:42:19:	seem strident and we seem forceful one that's our personality but I can be

00:42:19 – 00:42:25:	more laid back about stuff I can I can be I can get into the weeds on things and

00:42:25 – 00:42:30:	not take a strong point and talk about the subtleties and there are

00:42:30 – 00:42:35:	subtleties to some of those things subtleties are a luxury you don't get to

00:42:35 – 00:42:39:	debate the subtleties and you till you agree on the principles and the

00:42:39 – 00:42:42:	principles are that these things are either good or they're evil and until we

00:42:42 – 00:42:46:	can settle on that there are no subtleties to be discussed under any

00:42:46 – 00:42:50:	circumstances because as soon as you start wrestling with that pig the pig is

00:42:50 – 00:42:54:	happy and you get covered in mud and Satan loves it he's sitting on the

00:42:54 – 00:42:57:	sidelines and cheering because you're working your butt off trying to be a good

00:42:57 – 00:43:00:	Christian in the fight and all you're doing is making things worse for

00:43:00 – 00:43:07:	everyone who's observing and I think that as Christians we have to think all

00:43:07 – 00:43:11:	of these worldly things through it's not enough just to think about your faith

00:43:11 – 00:43:15:	anymore you can't just think about justification and think all right I'm done

00:43:15 – 00:43:19:	being Christian for the day you need to think about the world about all the

00:43:19 – 00:43:25:	things that happen in creation and how they apply to the Christian life and

00:43:25 – 00:43:29:	how they apply to God's word because God has something to say about all of

00:43:29 – 00:43:34:	these things all of them God tells us how he created us he gave us a roadmap for

00:43:34 – 00:43:37:	how he created us and Corey's you mentioned Satan gave us a roadmap for how

00:43:37 – 00:43:40:	he's trying to destroy it and we just laughed and pointed and said look how

00:43:40 – 00:43:45:	silly that is no one believes that and Satan was like wow that was a close one

00:43:45 – 00:43:50:	meanwhile he's already on point five or six of his ten-point plan but no

00:43:50 – 00:43:54:	clearly he's not accomplishing anything he's only been one after the other with

00:43:54 – 00:44:00:	basically no opposition and the reason you know we like I've said we we mentioned

00:44:00 – 00:44:05:	race very frequently race is one of the principal ways that Corey and I have

00:44:05 – 00:44:10:	been able to speak to non-believers on the right because there is a discussion

00:44:10 – 00:44:15:	around how God made us and it's largely taking place among people who don't

00:44:15 – 00:44:21:	believe in God which is a nightmare because while they can discern the truth

00:44:21 – 00:44:26:	from creation they can discern measurable truth they can discern things that

00:44:26 – 00:44:31:	can be correlated that can be observed they don't have any frame of reference

00:44:31 – 00:44:37:	for where it came from and the lack of God in those conversations will take

00:44:37 – 00:44:42:	them to dark places the we condemn and so while others are afraid to speak

00:44:42 – 00:44:46:	about those subjects or to speak to those people the reason that we have found

00:44:46 – 00:44:51:	vital to do so and to gain expertise on the matter is specifically because that's

00:44:51 – 00:44:56:	where Satan's taking the battle and it's where he's been for a while and there's

00:44:56 – 00:45:02:	a fight to be had there that's a vital fight to the Christian faith and if you

00:45:02 – 00:45:08:	as a Christian are talking to someone who's an unbeliever who's you know

00:45:08 – 00:45:13:	they're very conservative they're concerned about societal decay they're

00:45:13 – 00:45:18:	concerned about violence in bad neighborhoods they're concerned about the

00:45:18 – 00:45:23:	performance of groups of people in schools all of these problems have

00:45:23 – 00:45:28:	explanations that in many cases they have access to the you don't because as

00:45:28 – 00:45:34:	soon as they say hey it seems like all the African-American kids are scoring

00:45:34 – 00:45:39:	over a standard deviation lower than the white kids you say that's disparity

00:45:39 – 00:45:44:	that's caused by socioeconomic differences when the other person knows for

00:45:44 – 00:45:50:	fact that that's not true you've lied and you've lost lost credibility and like

00:45:50 – 00:45:55:	I've said repeatedly Satan is the father of every single lie and the

00:45:55 – 00:46:00:	unbeliever who hears you telling lies that are left to slice they know that

00:46:00 – 00:46:04:	they're not true they don't know Jesus but they know they know test scores and

00:46:04 – 00:46:09:	they know crime statistics and they know how to parse those out in such a way to

00:46:09 – 00:46:14:	arrive at unassailable conclusions if you lie to them and you say well no that's

00:46:14 – 00:46:18:	not what's really going on all people are exactly alike that's how God made

00:46:18 – 00:46:23:	us he meant is all exactly alike in this life world unidentified fungible

00:46:23 – 00:46:27:	interchangeable creatures who could you could drop one person anywhere on the

00:46:27 – 00:46:31:	planet they're going to be exactly the same as any other person when you tell

00:46:31 – 00:46:35:	that lie to someone who knows better you have closed the door on ever sharing

00:46:35 – 00:46:39:	your faith because you proven yourself a liar about the very God that you claim

00:46:39 – 00:46:45:	to proclaim they know that he if there is a true God who's created things that

00:46:45 – 00:46:49:	this is the creation that God made or maybe those things are the result of the

00:46:49 – 00:46:52:	fall which they would know because they don't know about the fall you should know

00:46:52 – 00:46:57:	about the fall and how it correlates with these facts on the ground and where

00:46:57 – 00:47:02:	the fall is in play and where God's created orders in play and we do a lot of

00:47:02 – 00:47:07:	in-depth episode on those things specifically to equip the Christian to speak

00:47:07 – 00:47:10:	truthfully when otherwise there's a very good chance that you would lie and

00:47:10 – 00:47:16:	inadvertently like it's it's not a lie that you intend to deceive is that you

00:47:16 – 00:47:19:	never looked at the genealogy of where your talking points came from you

00:47:19 – 00:47:23:	thought well this is just how Christians talk I know that X Y and Z when

00:47:23 – 00:47:27:	someone who's an unbeliever who knows more than you about the world says no

00:47:27 – 00:47:32:	X Y and Z are not actually true I know this to be a fact if you argue with them

00:47:32 – 00:47:36:	you've lost the chance to have any credibility about any truth and the most

00:47:36 – 00:47:41:	important truth of that person can ever hear about their salvation they'll be

00:47:41 – 00:47:45:	deaf to you saying it because why would they believe you have something big when

00:47:45 – 00:47:50:	you're going to lie about something as small as test scores and even if there

00:47:50 – 00:47:56:	is no intent to deceive you are still endangering your soul by holding to

00:47:56 – 00:48:03:	that lie it may not be that lie itself that will endangere your soul you could

00:48:03 – 00:48:09:	potentially hold a small lie your entire life right up to your death and be

00:48:09 – 00:48:14:	fine would you have been better off believing the truth yes can you believe

00:48:14 – 00:48:21:	certain lies without damning yourself of course but if you believe a lie it's

00:48:21 – 00:48:27:	never one lie because you have to defend that lie in order to continue to hold

00:48:27 – 00:48:32:	it in the face of countervailing information and so you will tell yourself

00:48:32 – 00:48:37:	another lie or someone else will tell you a lie and you'll believe that one and

00:48:37 – 00:48:43:	another lie and another lie and over time these add up you will eventually get

00:48:43 – 00:48:49:	to something that touches on some part of the faith more directly and you will

00:48:49 – 00:48:53:	have to choose are you going to continue to believe this entire house of

00:48:53 – 00:48:57:	cards all these lies you built up over the years or are you going to let that

00:48:57 – 00:49:05:	collapse and uphold the Christian truth many people will choose to compromise on

00:49:05 – 00:49:10:	the truth because it is easier to compromise on the truth it's easier to say

00:49:10 – 00:49:18:	well the sixth-day creation wasn't literal it was eras or ages or an

00:49:18 – 00:49:22:	indefinite period of time there were gaps between the days God was active for a

00:49:22 – 00:49:28:	while then he took a nap it's easier to do that than to let the entire house

00:49:28 – 00:49:32:	of cards collapse because your entire worldview I don't mind the term as much

00:49:32 – 00:49:38:	but your entire worldview has now turned into dust because you built it on one

00:49:38 – 00:49:45:	lie and you had to tell all these other lies to support it and so when it

00:49:45 – 00:49:50:	comes to race the reason Satan loves it so much loves the issue of race he

00:49:50 – 00:49:54:	hates race because he hates everything about creation everything about humanity

00:49:54 – 00:50:02:	particularly but the reason that he loves the issue is because he gets both sides

00:50:02 – 00:50:08:	with it he gets those on the largely political right who recognize that

00:50:08 – 00:50:14:	biological race is real and he gets them because many of them do not believe

00:50:14 – 00:50:18:	they are Christians but they'll talk to Christians and then Christians will

00:50:18 – 00:50:23:	deny race and so these people who know that race is real who know the truth now

00:50:23 – 00:50:29:	think that Christianity is a lie because Christians keep lying to them well as

00:50:29 – 00:50:34:	as I just mentioned the other side is Satan gets Christians because Christians

00:50:34 – 00:50:39:	are supporting a lie and building their worldview on a lie so he gets you as a

00:50:39 – 00:50:44:	Christian and he gets those who could have been Christians if you had believed

00:50:44 – 00:50:48:	the truth and that is why Satan loves the issue of race and loves that modern

00:50:48 – 00:50:54:	Christians fall all over themselves to support what the world says about it to

00:50:54 – 00:50:58:	support lies to support what Satan says about this issue instead of what

00:50:58 – 00:51:03:	scriptures says about the issue and what reality what biology says about the

00:51:03 – 00:51:09:	issue because God has two books one of them is the Bible one of them is creation

00:51:09 – 00:51:17:	God is the author of both both of them are true I never would have cared about

00:51:17 – 00:51:22:	race until I saw the attacks that were occurring in the world in the

00:51:22 – 00:51:27:	direction of those attacks it was it's just never been a part of my life it's

00:51:27 – 00:51:30:	never been interesting I've observed things I've had observations and I've

00:51:30 – 00:51:36:	had opinions but it never seemed important to me because I was I fell into the

00:51:36 – 00:51:41:	the lulled false sense of security that I can just ignore something and everything's

00:51:41 – 00:51:46:	hunky-dory and that usually works when there's no attack but when the storm

00:51:46 – 00:51:50:	comes if you haven't batten down all the hatches if you haven't put the

00:51:50 – 00:51:55:	storm shutters on all the windows when the wind starts howling and the branches

00:51:55 – 00:51:59:	start flying off the trees they're gonna punch through those windows and you're

00:51:59 – 00:52:02:	gonna have glass everywhere and you're gonna have water everywhere and it's

00:52:02 – 00:52:06:	going to be a terrible mess because you didn't plug one of the holes in your

00:52:06 – 00:52:12:	defenses and so it's important to look at these subjects and to be knowledgeable

00:52:12 – 00:52:17:	about them to the point that you can at least not lie to someone else and

00:52:17 – 00:52:24:	ideally that you would know enough to be able to amount a simple defense even

00:52:24 – 00:52:29:	just you know for a minute or two in a conversation and it's why we talked a

00:52:29 – 00:52:33:	little bit about in one of the recent episodes about evolution and or not

00:52:33 – 00:52:38:	about evolution per se but about the creation of the universe and how God created

00:52:38 – 00:52:43:	the six day universe and how scientists have now simulated some of those

00:52:43 – 00:52:49:	things I made clear that we're not trying to say science justifies faith but

00:52:49 – 00:52:53:	the point that the unbeliever who would point to that article and maybe come

00:52:53 – 00:52:58:	to you with and say look where's your God in this if you know about the

00:52:58 – 00:53:03:	science enough that you can point to Genesis and say well I'm glad you found

00:53:03 – 00:53:06:	that article here's my version of that article I've known this since I was a

00:53:06 – 00:53:10:	little kid it's nice to see the scientists capturing up that's how the truth

00:53:10 – 00:53:15:	works and that's how God works in the Christian life by revealing truth through

00:53:15 – 00:53:22:	scripture and through reason both avenues are accessible ways of reaching

00:53:22 – 00:53:28:	truth reason can apprehend truth on its own not that truth which saves that is

00:53:28 – 00:53:33:	contained only in scripture which is precisely why a vital part of the Christian

00:53:33 – 00:53:38:	life must be precisely this must be making sure that the problem that you're

00:53:38 – 00:53:43:	solving when you're talking to someone is that you're being truthful and that

00:53:43 – 00:53:48:	you're paving the road in such a way that maybe that conversation won't take

00:53:48 – 00:53:52:	you there but it's going to be a brick in the road so that in a future conversation

00:53:52 – 00:53:56:	you will have built up credibility and you have been building a road towards God

00:53:56 – 00:54:01:	by saying things that are truthful and things that are scriptural in ways that

00:54:01 – 00:54:05:	are consistent with what the person knows so that you become a more and more

00:54:05 – 00:54:10:	trusted source of truth to them because you know things that they don't from a

00:54:10 – 00:54:15:	perspective they don't share and they may never believe in Jesus they may never

00:54:15 – 00:54:20:	believe in the cross and in their salvation but you will never get the chance if

00:54:20 – 00:54:26:	you lie to them so many times that they're like I just don't care what you have to

00:54:26 – 00:54:31:	say and in many cases the number of lies that it may take from you who claim to

00:54:31 – 00:54:35:	have a source of all truth before they will disregard your opinion and maybe

00:54:35 – 00:54:40:	one and maybe the one time that you say something worldly that's popular on

00:54:40 – 00:54:45:	MSNBC is the one time that they say you know what I'll still talk to this guy

00:54:45 – 00:54:48:	he's my friend but this Christianity stuff he's selling it's a bunch of garbage

00:54:48 – 00:54:53:	all the churches around me have rainbow flags I know exactly what these guys are

00:54:53 – 00:54:58:	up to and I know what it is that they're capable of defending and it's not the

00:54:58 – 00:55:02:	sort of good and evil that I know as an unbeliever this is the frame that we

00:55:02 – 00:55:08:	need to bring in our own minds as we're tackling these problems because God will

00:55:08 – 00:55:12:	ultimately give you the chance to share the good news of their salvation but

00:55:12 – 00:55:17:	only if you can first tell them the good news of God's creation and again

00:55:17 – 00:55:21:	where I'm not trying to say never talk about Jesus first every situation is

00:55:21 – 00:55:24:	different every conversation is different there's no script which is why we're

00:55:24 – 00:55:27:	not giving you a script here I don't know what conversations you're going to

00:55:27 – 00:55:31:	have but I can tell you that if you've not thought things through in this way

00:55:31 – 00:55:36:	you're not going to be equipped to have those conversations later on we would

00:55:36 – 00:55:41:	love to give people a script but that's just not how this works you have to have

00:55:41 – 00:55:46:	a sort of general knowledge of a lot of different things in order to have these

00:55:46 – 00:55:51:	conversations because you're having a conversation this is not a telemarketing

00:55:51 – 00:55:54:	call that's not what you're doing you're not cold calling people you're dealing

00:55:54 – 00:55:59:	with another human being as an actual person asking questions answering

00:55:59 – 00:56:04:	questions moving things forward in the discussion yes you may very well have a

00:56:04 – 00:56:08:	goal in mind you may be trying to get somewhere but conversations evolve

00:56:08 – 00:56:13:	naturally you just have to know how to conduct yourself in the conversation and

00:56:13 – 00:56:18:	if you lie to people one of the things they are going to think about you is

00:56:18 – 00:56:23:	that you are stupid because as mentioned they are going to see these rainbow

00:56:23 – 00:56:28:	flags and they're going to think well he's just he doesn't pay attention or they'll

00:56:28 – 00:56:33:	think you don't really believe it or they'll think that you are lying none of

00:56:33 – 00:56:39:	these options are good you may very well destroy any opportunity of ever

00:56:39 – 00:56:44:	getting that person to truly listen to the gospel because you lied about

00:56:44 – 00:56:49:	something about which he knows the truth and it is incumbent on you to speak

00:56:49 – 00:56:55:	the truth you don't have to know everything if you don't know it is fine to say

00:56:55 – 00:57:00:	I don't know and then find someone who does because there are plenty of very

00:57:00 – 00:57:05:	intelligent Christians who are specialists in various different areas the

00:57:05 – 00:57:10:	information is there you can find it you can get it for this person it is

00:57:10 – 00:57:16:	better to say I don't know than to give a false answer I'm glad you brought

00:57:16 – 00:57:19:	scripts because I think that's a good segue to the second half of this

00:57:19 – 00:57:26:	conversation there's a recent debate that occurs I mentioned on Lutheran

00:57:26 – 00:57:30:	Twitter they had to do with the sacrament of the altar with communion or

00:57:30 – 00:57:35:	Eucharist the Eucharist now we're not going to go through the entire

00:57:35 – 00:57:40:	discussion and we're not going to make the case for the full case for the

00:57:40 – 00:57:44:	proper view of the sacrament what we're going to do is discuss this

00:57:44 – 00:57:50:	conversation as it played out online as an example of how the treatment of

00:57:50 – 00:57:57:	conversation as a series of scripted responses can do tremendous harm because

00:57:57 – 00:58:03:	again when people are talking about points of doctrine and you're

00:58:03 – 00:58:07:	disagreeing about terms the first question you need to ask is what problem

00:58:07 – 00:58:13:	were you trying to solve by disagreeing with the other person now I realize

00:58:13 – 00:58:19:	that there's a bit of irony and the two of us sort of backing away from the

00:58:19 – 00:58:23:	discussion of terms because it's been such a prominent aspect of so many

00:58:23 – 00:58:31:	episodes but I think the care trying to solve problems yes and we're we're

00:58:31 – 00:58:36:	focusing on terms specifically so that there isn't confusion sewn by the

00:58:36 – 00:58:42:	misuse of that terms those terms so if you've listened to me talk about what

00:58:42 – 00:58:46:	a nation is when I say a nation you're never going to think I mean

00:58:46 – 00:58:50:	country you're always going to think I mean race if you've been paying

00:58:50 – 00:58:55:	attention I'm very specific about the terms that I'm using so even if you think

00:58:55 – 00:58:59:	that's terrible even if you think I'm a horrible or a stupid person at least

00:58:59 – 00:59:03:	you know what I'm talking about and you can properly categorize whatever it is

00:59:03 – 00:59:09:	I'm saying about nations at the moment the problem that played out online and

00:59:09 – 00:59:12:	again this is not an online question this is not this is not about

00:59:12 – 00:59:18:	online drama this is specifically about how a group of Lutherans who were

00:59:18 – 00:59:22:	generally aligned on the same type of beliefs ended up having a knockdown

00:59:22 – 00:59:29:	dragout fight over a single word that was taken out of context was misused by

00:59:29 – 00:59:34:	people who on both sides didn't understand the word or how it was being used by

00:59:34 – 00:59:39:	either side and it resulted in people having their faith undermined to the point

00:59:39 – 00:59:43:	that they're absolutely people who observed that conversation who will

00:59:43 – 00:59:49:	ultimately leave the Lutheran church because of how it played out so this

00:59:49 – 00:59:52:	began with someone who's probably going to come up and perhaps on his own

00:59:52 – 00:59:57:	episode at some point in the future a guy named Jordan Cooper he has the

59:57 – 01:00:02
largest single presence online as a Lutheran talking head he's got a

01:00:02 – 01:00:05:	YouTube channel with over 20,000 followers he's got a bunch of people on

01:00:05 – 01:00:10:	Twitter but he cares about YouTube because he makes some money there he tweeted

01:00:10 – 01:00:16:	apparently there's discourse on here about the Lutheran doctrine of communion we

01:00:16 – 01:00:22:	do not believe in a physical presence or local presence it's a real presence and

01:00:22 – 01:00:30:	a substantial presence but a mysterious one now in a recent episode where where I

01:00:30 – 01:00:35:	was talking about you know the the genesis narrative you may have heard me over

01:00:35 – 01:00:40:	and over talk about real but not factual and I sort of iterated through things

01:00:40 – 01:00:45:	seemingly a random and it was deliberately a random because that's a very

01:00:45 – 01:00:49:	common thing that happens where people will say well real doesn't mean true and

01:00:49 – 01:00:56:	true doesn't mean factual and factual doesn't mean actual and that's the

01:00:56 – 01:01:02:	perfect opportunity for Satan to undermine faith and so the reason that this

01:01:02 – 01:01:08:	discussion blew up was that in the 16th century the very same fate fight was

01:01:08 – 01:01:15:	being had among the Lutherans the reformed and the Roman Catholics the

01:01:15 – 01:01:19:	Roman Catholics had invented the doctrine of transubstantiation which I

01:01:19 – 01:01:24:	mentioned in an earlier episode where they agreed with the reformed at the

01:01:24 – 01:01:33:	time either the bread and wine in communion is only bread and wine or it is

01:01:33 – 01:01:39:	only Christ body and blood now scripture says both in separate places it says

01:01:39 – 01:01:44:	one and it says the other in some places it says both but as a logical

01:01:44 – 01:01:50:	deduction both the reformed and the Romanists agreed that it can only be one of

01:01:50 – 01:01:54:	if you have body you don't have have bread if you have bread you don't have

01:01:54 – 01:01:59:	body and the same with the blood in the line the Lutherans were caught in the

01:01:59 – 01:02:07:	middle of this highly technical highly philosophical debate and they

01:02:07 – 01:02:13:	necessarily engaged with it because this was not only a doctrinal problem but

01:02:13 – 01:02:17:	it was a political problem because there were princes who were choosing one

01:02:17 – 01:02:22:	side or the other in these fights and so they were basically demanding

01:02:22 – 01:02:27:	explanations for what's going on the Pope says one thing Calvin says another

01:02:27 – 01:02:32:	what do you Lutheran say we need to know the truth and so for a period of 50

01:02:32 – 01:02:38:	years the Lutheran reformers and the fathers in the faith formulated repeated

01:02:38 – 01:02:44:	arguments getting deeper and deeper into the philosophical weeds to try to

01:02:44 – 01:02:50:	narrow down what the sacrament was and what it was not and I think

01:02:50 – 01:02:58:	unfortunately by doing so they fundamentally ceded the frame to the rationalists

01:02:58 – 01:03:07:	who were using these philosophical presuppositions to impose rules on God when

01:03:07 – 01:03:11:	as we've said before this is a God who spoke the universe into existence if

01:03:11 – 01:03:17:	Jesus says this is my body that's declarative that that's a statement of fact

01:03:17 – 01:03:23:	not because Jesus can't lie but because when he says it it becomes true it's

01:03:23 – 01:03:27:	performative as well exactly that's what it was sorry yeah yeah yeah it's both

01:03:27 – 01:03:32:	yes it's both yeah it's it's it's not descriptive that that's the crucial

01:03:32 – 01:03:36:	distinction exactly yeah yeah yeah you know again we get these things were like

01:03:36 – 01:03:40:	we use a lot of synonyms do they mean the same thing so Jordan back to the

01:03:40 – 01:03:45:	tweet says we don't believe in physical or local we do believe in real and

01:03:45 – 01:03:49:	substantial and so there was a reply from one of his followers who said

01:03:49 – 01:03:54:	getting a lot of pushback from your fellow Lutherans here as they insist that

01:03:54 – 01:03:59:	Christ is physically present and several have told that when it says real it

01:03:59 – 01:04:06:	means physical and Jordan's reply was sorry but they're wrong now this is

01:04:06 – 01:04:11:	interesting for several reasons we'll get out of the rest but a friend dug up

01:04:11 – 01:04:15:	one of Jordan's comments on YouTube four years ago where he says the exact

01:04:15 – 01:04:22:	opposite and he says it in a good way the fight that they were having again on one

01:04:22 – 01:04:27:	hand you have the Romanist the Pope who's saying this is Christ's body and blood

01:04:27 – 01:04:33:	only the position of Rome is that the bread and wine are no longer there

01:04:33 – 01:04:37:	there's no bread and there's no wine anymore it's not home all you have is

01:04:37 – 01:04:45:	Jesus body and blood yes yes plus some philosophy to explain why you don't

01:04:45 – 01:04:51:	taste flesh which is why Cooper said substantial that is what well at least if

01:04:51 – 01:04:55:	he was actually thinking about he may have been to be charitable that's what he

01:04:55 – 01:04:59:	was thinking of when he said substantial he was thinking of the essence why

01:04:59 – 01:05:03:	don't you give the breakdown give the subset I mean as we'll give the the quick

01:05:03 – 01:05:09:	version when it comes to the Eucharist you can fall off one side of the other

01:05:09 – 01:05:13:	of the horse it's like so many other issues in Christianity the Romanist the

01:05:13 – 01:05:19:	papus fall off the right side of the horse they say well Christ says it's his

01:05:19 – 01:05:23:	body and his blood so it's just his body and his blood of course they miss the

01:05:23 – 01:05:28:	part where he says this bread is my body so he actually does say two things one

01:05:28 – 01:05:32:	it's bread to it's his body that's the Lutheran position we don't fall off

01:05:32 – 01:05:37:	the horse the reformed fall off the other side of the horse they say well I see

01:05:37 – 01:05:43:	bread I taste bread I see wine I taste wine and so according to my reason it's

01:05:43 – 01:05:48:	bread and wine and so when Christ says it's his body and blood he must mean

01:05:48 – 01:05:52:	something else and so then they launch into their arguments about what it

01:05:52 – 01:05:56:	actually is or how it actually happens etc and that's where you get giant

01:05:56 – 01:06:01:	volumes on this full of terms that are alien to scripture and so they fall off

01:06:01 – 01:06:07:	the left side of the horse Lutherans to reiterate stay on the horse Christ says

01:06:07 – 01:06:14:	this bread okay it's bread is my body okay it's his body this cup the wine is my

01:06:14 – 01:06:19:	blood okay it's wine and blood we just affirm what Christ said and we're fine

01:06:19 – 01:06:26:	with it that's enough we're done now the reason that the Romans came to their

01:06:26 – 01:06:32:	conclusion is that they mixed the words of God scripture with Aristotle I am

01:06:32 – 01:06:36:	not necessarily condemning all philosophy philosophy is useful you can go

01:06:36 – 01:06:42:	overboard and they did so what they do is they take Aristotle which the two

01:06:42 – 01:06:48:	terms you need to know here are essence and accident the essence of a thing

01:06:48 – 01:06:51:	which is what substances we're just dealing with Greek versus Latin

01:06:51 – 01:06:55:	essentially in different terms for the same things the essence of a thing is

01:06:55 – 01:07:04:	what that thing is I am male I am a human these are things related to my essence

01:07:04 – 01:07:12:	as a being I happen to have a black shirt on that is an accident that is not

01:07:12 – 01:07:17:	something that is essential to me I could have paint on myself or something these

01:07:17 – 01:07:26:	are accidents and so what the papers say is that the essence of bread and wine

01:07:26 – 01:07:32:	is removed by the words of institution by the consecration and that the essence

01:07:32 – 01:07:38:	of body of flesh and blood is what takes the place but the accidents of

01:07:38 – 01:07:43:	bread and wine remain and so it looks and tastes like bread and wine but in essence

01:07:43 – 01:07:47:	it is body and blood now of course you could wrangle over whether or not

01:07:47 – 01:07:52:	taste as part of the essence of bread and wine and they have trust me but that

01:07:52 – 01:07:57:	is essentially how they came to their conclusion so again to the short

01:07:57 – 01:08:01:	summary is just Rome falls off the right side of the horse the reformed fall

01:08:01 – 01:08:04:	off the left side of the horse and Lutherans stay on the horse and just say

01:08:04 – 01:08:10:	God said it I believe it but when Lutherans stayed on the right side of the

01:08:10 – 01:08:17:	horse which I believe which is on top of it right in the middle they engage in

01:08:17 – 01:08:21:	lengthy debate in the terms of their opponents so they got down in the mud and

01:08:21 – 01:08:27:	they argued these things in philosophical terms now the reason that script was

01:08:27 – 01:08:31:	a good jumping off point is that that's where the conversation online really went

01:08:31 – 01:08:37:	to hell I mean that literally I can tell you one of them well yeah well here's

01:08:37 – 01:08:41:	one of the thoughts from someone else in that thread a few hours later this

01:08:41 – 01:08:45:	entire thing is honestly shaken my faith today I was always under the impression

01:08:45 – 01:08:50:	that we did affirm a physical presence if we don't I don't see a distinction

01:08:50 – 01:08:54:	between us and the reformed I need to talk with my pastor about this I'm terrified

01:08:54 – 01:08:58:	of receiving improperly and he was right to do so his faith was rightly

01:08:58 – 01:09:03:	undermined by this argument now the reason that this argument was so

01:09:03 – 01:09:08:	contentious was that in the response the Jordan had rather than trying to

01:09:08 – 01:09:13:	comfort this soul who was terrified and terrorized by this sort of

01:09:13 – 01:09:18:	scholastic wrangling he said read the formula of conquered article seven which

01:09:18 – 01:09:23:	is very long it's very detailed it's very technical it's all the very worst

01:09:23 – 01:09:30:	things about the reformed in the Romanist position on these things now it

01:09:30 – 01:09:34:	expresses the Lutheran position but it doesn't do it in Lutheran terms it

01:09:34 – 01:09:40:	does it in the opponents terms in order to circumscribe our position in

01:09:40 – 01:09:48:	contra distinction to theirs so to make clear this was a 16th century

01:09:48 – 01:09:54:	argument taking place among extraordinarily learned men who were far smarter

01:09:54 – 01:10:00:	than anyone involved in this modern debate who had far greater knowledge far

01:10:00 – 01:10:05:	greater training and education than anyone who's saying read the formula of

01:10:05 – 01:10:10:	conquered now this is not an argument against the formula of conquered it's an

01:10:10 – 01:10:16:	argument for what problem are you trying to solve because no the the people who

01:10:16 – 01:10:22:	were expressing doubt in this thread about whether physical means real they

01:10:22 – 01:10:26:	were Lutherans they were not papers who are saying no that's only that's

01:10:26 – 01:10:31:	transubstantiation it's physical it means blood and guts minus the the

01:10:31 – 01:10:37:	accidents it wasn't reformed guys saying no there's no Jesus there it's it's

01:10:37 – 01:10:42:	only spiritual it was Lutherans and see the problem that they were trying to

01:10:42 – 01:10:47:	solve should have been can I make sure that my Lutheran brothers are

01:10:47 – 01:10:53:	describing us the way that we understand it to be faithfully described nobody

01:10:53 – 01:10:58:	in the conversation did that nobody except for me and Cory and you know one or

01:10:58 – 01:11:03:	two other people I was still banned at the time so I didn't participate yeah yeah

01:11:03 – 01:11:08:	your God's New Year's present to Lutheran Twitter is that Cory was unbanned so

01:11:08 – 01:11:17:	welcome back Carter the the terrible thing that happened in this fight was the

01:11:17 – 01:11:23:	Jordan and a number of other other people focused on the word physically now

01:11:23 – 01:11:28:	they did it not because they understood what the man meant when he said it

01:11:28 – 01:11:35:	because again his comment was his Christ physically present in the sacrament when

01:11:35 – 01:11:41:	a Lutheran asks that he's talking about the sacramental union and no point has

01:11:41 – 01:11:45:	any Lutheran in my life that I've ever talked to or heard talking believed in

01:11:45 – 01:11:51:	and transubstantiation or that Jesus isn't really present every Lutheran

01:11:51 – 01:11:57:	regardless of their education level I've ever heard discuss this whether they

01:11:57 – 01:12:02:	use the word or not they effectively subscribe to the mystery of the

01:12:02 – 01:12:07:	Eucharist and I have to give credit again to the Eastern Orthodox they just

01:12:07 – 01:12:11:	call it a mystery they didn't get bogged down in this crap like we did in the

01:12:11 – 01:12:15:	West and I think they were better for it and that one regard they're terrible

01:12:15 – 01:12:19:	about everything else but at least they didn't make the mistake of wrestling

01:12:19 – 01:12:24:	with these pigs because again it's not that the formula of conquered is wrong

01:12:24 – 01:12:30:	it's that when you take a 16th century technical treatise and you take

01:12:30 – 01:12:37:	philosophical terms from that treatise that we're not telling Lutherans here's

01:12:37 – 01:12:41:	what we believe they were telling the reformed here is what is in error that's

01:12:41 – 01:12:46:	that's a crucial distinction what problem are you trying to solve they knew

01:12:46 – 01:12:50:	what problem they were trying to solve they were trying to testify for once

01:12:50 – 01:12:54:	and for all time here is how our position differs from the reformed and

01:12:54 – 01:12:59:	differs from the Romanists they were not in the formula of conquered which was

01:12:59 – 01:13:05:	written in 1577 this is nearly 50 years after the initial confessions of what

01:13:05 – 01:13:10:	we believe about the Eucharist those initial confessions were sufficient for

01:13:10 – 01:13:14:	any Lutheran to understand what we're talking about it was only once these

01:13:14 – 01:13:19:	philosophical fights dragged out for decades after Luther was dead that these

01:13:19 – 01:13:25:	other guys wrestled with the pig and wrote these things down and so again I

01:13:25 – 01:13:30:	want to keep saying this because I was accused of numerous hilarious and

01:13:30 – 01:13:34:	terrible things including that I didn't believe in the book of conquered at all I

01:13:34 – 01:13:42:	was also accused simultaneously of being a cannibal which is fascinating

01:13:42 – 01:13:46:	because that is not only the accusation that the Calvinist leveled against the

01:13:46 – 01:13:51:	Lutherans but it's a it's an accusation that was leveled in the first and second

01:13:51 – 01:13:56:	century by the Romans when they were murdering Christians when when the first

01:13:56 – 01:14:01:	and second century Christians were testifying to what the sacrament was to

01:14:01 – 01:14:06:	them and they said this is Jesus body and blood they were legally charged with

01:14:06 – 01:14:11:	cannibalism and they were sentenced to death and at any point they could have

01:14:11 – 01:14:16:	said no we don't mean physically we don't mean that it's actually really Jesus

01:14:16 – 01:14:21:	body and blood in a real sense it's just it's there in a spiritual sense and

01:14:21 – 01:14:25:	let me explain how Jesus body isn't heaven but it's a spirit body and so

01:14:25 – 01:14:29:	there's a spiritual mode of presence they didn't say any of that those those

01:14:29 – 01:14:34:	explanations hadn't been invented yet well also to be clear if they had done

01:14:34 – 01:14:38:	that Romans would have been fine with that that would have been just like any

01:14:38 – 01:14:41:	other Gnostic cult they would have been totally fine with that oh you're just

01:14:41 – 01:14:46:	doing weird Gnostic stuff great have fun they didn't do that that would have been

01:14:46 – 01:14:51:	a very natural explanation at the time in that context yeah that's an excellent

01:14:51 – 01:14:56:	point and yet there's no record of that ever happening those men the men who

01:14:56 – 01:15:01:	were ripped to shreds by lions you know we've heard about Christians being fed

01:15:01 – 01:15:06:	to lions we don't get told why that happened except that they were Christians in

01:15:06 – 01:15:11:	some cases they were literally fed to lions because they were accused of

01:15:11 – 01:15:15:	cannibalism and they would not deny it now it wasn't that they wouldn't deny

01:15:15 – 01:15:20:	because they were cannibals there were nothing of the sort there is no Christian

01:15:20 – 01:15:26:	belief that we are gnawing on the toe or on the finger of Jesus it is mysterious

01:15:26 – 01:15:31:	we don't know how he's there but we know that he's God and when Jesus said this

01:15:31 – 01:15:37:	bread is my body that's the end of the discussion if you don't believe that if

01:15:37 – 01:15:43:	you need other explanations that is unbelief that is sin and he was holding

01:15:43 – 01:15:48:	physical bread with his physical body worth noting yes and he hadn't been

01:15:48 – 01:15:54:	crucified yet this the the thing that one of the one of the ways that our

01:15:54 – 01:15:58:	reason breaks down when we discuss God's action in the creation is that God is

01:15:58 – 01:16:04:	not bound by time so when Jesus on Thursday night held up the bread and said

01:16:04 – 01:16:08:	this is my body referring to the body that was sacrificed on the cross the

01:16:08 – 01:16:14:	following afternoon he wasn't saying something he wasn't making a forward

01:16:14 – 01:16:18:	looking statement he wasn't something saying something that would be true

01:16:18 – 01:16:22:	the next time they had communion because it would be after Jesus was sacrificed

01:16:22 – 01:16:26:	on the cross he was saying something that was true because the

01:16:26 – 01:16:31:	propitiating sacrifice of Christ body and blood physical body and blood real

01:16:31 – 01:16:37:	blood and guts on the cross that happened one time for all sins in every

01:16:37 – 01:16:43:	direction and we receive that by faith and we receive it in the sacrament and we

01:16:43 – 01:16:48:	also receive it in baptism because God pours out his blessings on us because

01:16:48 – 01:16:54:	he knows that we need the reassurance and so for these men to take what was

01:16:54 – 01:16:59:	intended to be reassurance and turned it into something that undermined faith

01:16:59 – 01:17:04:	is the most wicked and evil thing that you can possibly do in Christian discourse

01:17:04 – 01:17:09:	so if any of these guys had asked at any point what problem am I trying to

01:17:09 – 01:17:15:	solve by arguing with the man who is saying physical presence they wouldn't

01:17:15 – 01:17:20:	own better they wouldn't have done it because they would have understood that

01:17:20 – 01:17:24:	I'm talking to a Lutheran I'm not confused about what he believes maybe it's

01:17:24 – 01:17:31:	worth clarifying when physical means toenails and when physical means real but

01:17:31 – 01:17:37:	mysterious and we don't understand I affirm the physical presence of Christ body

01:17:37 – 01:17:44:	and blood because I affirm the mystery I don't affirm transubstantiation I

01:17:44 – 01:17:50:	don't affirm solely a spiritual mode by which I ascend to heaven or Christ

01:17:50 – 01:17:56:	spiritual body comes down to earth I affirm that it's truly his body and blood

01:17:56 – 01:18:02:	because that's what he said and I don't need any further explanation and if the

01:18:02 – 01:18:05:	conversation had been left at that we would have been fine but it wasn't and

01:18:05 – 01:18:10:	everyone is worse for it it's also worth mentioning just how ridiculous the

01:18:10 – 01:18:16:	entirety of it was because the word physical doesn't actually appear in either

01:18:16 – 01:18:22:	article under discussion because of course he directed people to article seven

01:18:22 – 01:18:26:	which is the article on the Lord's this is in the epitome incidentally it's

01:18:26 – 01:18:29:	worth mentioning that there's the epitome and the solid declaration article seven

01:18:29 – 01:18:34:	is the Lord's supper the word physical doesn't appear anywhere in that article

01:18:35 – 01:18:40:	and I just checked in the reader's edition as well it's also not in there the word

01:18:40 – 01:18:50:	physical appears once in article eight which is on the nature the person of Christ now it appears

01:18:50 – 01:18:56:	twice in the reader's edition because they translate one word differently is physically but it's

01:18:56 – 01:19:03:	it's a different issue so it's not related the one that is translated physical is in brackets

01:19:03 – 01:19:10:	to give people context to help them understand what is meant and then it is also said

01:19:10 – 01:19:14:	Coperniatic which is exactly what you were just saying we're not saying that you're chewing

01:19:14 – 01:19:22:	on Jesus's toe that's all that's condemned there and again not the word physical because the word

01:19:22 – 01:19:29:	that is actually used as I've mentioned elsewhere is Iadish in German which does not mean physical

01:19:29 – 01:19:38:	is Coperniatic is a different word Iadish means earthly or mundane that's all we're saying we're

01:19:38 – 01:19:43:	saying you're not chewing on his toe it's a polemic against the reformed and so not only does the

01:19:43 – 01:19:51:	word not appear in the actual text the argument they were having is not at all what is addressed

01:19:51 – 01:19:56:	by the article because it is a polemic against the reformed and they're basically adopting the

01:19:56 – 01:20:02:	reformed argument so the entirety of it was harmful to make to faith and had by men who didn't

01:20:02 – 01:20:08:	even understand the terms being used in German or Latin they tenuously perhaps understood them

01:20:08 – 01:20:13:	in English and got them wrong and it was done for the worst possible motives because it wasn't

01:20:13 – 01:20:20:	done to try to clarify yeah it was about what it was was it a man said the word physically

01:20:20 – 01:20:25:	and that set off all the alarms elutheran headquarters like well physically that sounds like

01:20:25 – 01:20:30:	that might be one of these number of errors we have to fight this error without any regard

01:20:30 – 01:20:36:	for either the man who is speaking or anyone who is observing now you mentioned cavernatic

01:20:36 – 01:20:41:	which is a word that got thrown around around a whole bunch by guys which I find hilarious because

01:20:41 – 01:20:48:	the word basically doesn't exist yes I looked in google google books the word refers to the Jews

01:20:48 – 01:20:55:	from cavernium and john six fifty two who were arguing with jesus how can this man give us his

01:20:55 – 01:21:03:	flesh to eat so cavernatic is a term of art specific to this very argument it doesn't exist anywhere

01:21:03 – 01:21:08:	else it's it's it's the most technical term I think I probably ever heard like it comes from one

01:21:08 – 01:21:14:	verse it deals with one dispute and exists nowhere else in the english language I did a search on

01:21:14 – 01:21:21:	google broke google books it it's effectively never used it's like five zeros before you get past

01:21:21 – 01:21:28:	where you will find a numeral for the frequency of the use of the word it's such a technical term

01:21:28 – 01:21:33:	that for a bunch of guys on twitter to be throwing it around pretending that they're clarifying

01:21:34 – 01:21:39:	it would be laughable if not for the fact that it was so destructive and it was destructive because

01:21:40 – 01:21:45:	I don't disagree with I think what came out of this I think 80% of them were fighting

01:21:46 – 01:21:52:	the wrong fight for a silly reason I think that they were just mad that someone said physical

01:21:52 – 01:21:56:	and they said well that sounds like it might be here see I'm getting really mad on the internet

01:21:56 – 01:22:02:	I think the other 20% it came out actually are reformed because the the number of people who made

01:22:02 – 01:22:08:	explicitly swingly and Calvinistic arguments against me and against other Lutherans again I

01:22:08 – 01:22:16:	have never held anything other than the mysterious bodily presence that I can't understand or explain

01:22:16 – 01:22:22:	beyond its true now I'm not using true as a as a weasel word I'm saying I don't how is anything

01:22:22 – 01:22:28:	true than the word of God there's no true or true then when truth speaks truth so I let that

01:22:28 – 01:22:37:	rest but people came out of the woodwork including some people who had been friends called me a demon

01:22:37 – 01:22:43:	and a wolf because I said physically and again as you said like the words not even in the book of

01:22:43 – 01:22:48:	conquered except in your relevant places and they were using cavernatic as though it meant anything to

01:22:48 – 01:22:54:	them all of this was a fight about a word that nobody understood and if they had asked themselves what

01:22:54 – 01:22:59:	question what problem I trying to solve the fight never would have happened in the first place

01:22:59 – 01:23:03:	they have Jordan had any sense he could have linked to the video four years ago where he did clearly

01:23:03 – 01:23:08:	explain this in a way that was defensible his explanation this time was not only indefensible

01:23:08 – 01:23:14:	but it was fundamentally subversive because it destroyed faith in real time it's not the first time

01:23:14 – 01:23:22:	he's done this Jordan has mentioned repeatedly on his streams that he has lost track of the number

01:23:22 – 01:23:29:	of men who have reached out to him and said because of your videos I became Roman Catholic this is a man

01:23:29 – 01:23:34:	who claims to be Lutheran who claims to be making Lutheran videos when people hear him talk they become

01:23:34 – 01:23:42:	papists some of them go east some of them become Roman Eastern Orthodox I have talked to a lot of people

01:23:42 – 01:23:48:	and I've made many of them angry I've never convinced anyone to become a papus because I argued the

01:23:48 – 01:23:55:	Lutheran position for anything so when we express a concern for the clarity of speech and the clarity

01:23:55 – 01:24:01:	of descriptors it's for this reason when a man can talk for an hour and the end result is a

01:24:01 – 01:24:07:	people are more confused than when he began that man shouldn't be speaking at all and that's what we

01:24:07 – 01:24:12:	had here and again some some of the people who are arguing against us I think actually don't believe in

01:24:12 – 01:24:18:	the sacramental union they don't believe that it is Christ's body and blood they had to resort to so

01:24:18 – 01:24:25:	many terms that pushed God his body can't be here his body somewhere else Jesus not here

01:24:27 – 01:24:31:	and the fact that they called us cannibals just like happened in the 1600s and just like happened

01:24:31 – 01:24:37:	in the first century like I'm not insulted like it's it would be laughable again if it weren't so

01:24:37 – 01:24:43:	tragic and if it weren't so blasphemous they're blaspheming the body and blood of Christ which is

01:24:43 – 01:24:49:	truly present when they call a Lutheran who receives the sacrament a cannibal for believing what

01:24:49 – 01:24:54:	Christ says that is a horrible thing and although a couple men spoke up and said that their

01:24:54 – 01:25:00:	consciences were burdened many thousands of people saw that and the ones who weren't Lutheran

01:25:00 – 01:25:04:	went away thinking who knows what they thought but they certainly didn't think Lutherans that

01:25:04 – 01:25:09:	are act together they did either they think they were reformed or they think they were just jerks

01:25:09 – 01:25:15:	and were incoherent and the Lutherans who read it some of them will cease to be Lutheran as

01:25:15 – 01:25:21:	quarries you said not because of that one thing what happens the way Satan takes advantage of error

01:25:21 – 01:25:27:	a point that we will make over and over Satan just needs a chunk in the armor in this one small

01:25:27 – 01:25:34:	subversion of one corner of faith and some of the men who read that later on it's going to come up

01:25:34 – 01:25:39:	in a different context and they're going to have doubts maybe in some from some other angle

01:25:39 – 01:25:43:	and then Satan's going to hit him from a completely different perspective it's got nothing to do

01:25:43 – 01:25:48:	with sacrament and you know what maybe one day they just don't go back to church you know

01:25:48 – 01:25:53:	their kids got a soccer game and then their kid makes the finals and so it's three more weeks

01:25:54 – 01:25:58:	and you know come to think of it Jesus isn't actually present there and the preacher's kind of

01:25:58 – 01:26:03:	boring he's kind he's got a lamp hand shake I'm just not going to go back you know all maybe I'll

01:26:03 – 01:26:08:	find another church later but it's I'm just I wasn't getting anything that I thought I was

01:26:08 – 01:26:13:	getting there in the first place that man will eventually lose his soul because of what happened on

01:26:13 – 01:26:19:	Twitter so when we talk about being careful about what problem you're trying to solve it's not

01:26:19 – 01:26:24:	about being spurgian it's not about being picky it's about understanding who you're talking to when

01:26:24 – 01:26:31:	you speak because if it had been Romanus or if it had been Calvinus some of those discussions maybe

01:26:31 – 01:26:35:	could have happened I think it's it's pointless to happen on Twitter because you can't make any point

01:26:35 – 01:26:41:	really on Twitter but the fact that the words of the Lutheran confessions were used as weapons

01:26:41 – 01:26:47:	against other Lutherans is evil it's honestly the most evil thing I have ever seen happen

01:26:47 – 01:26:53:	Lutheran church and I I grow increasingly ashamed of Lutheran as I'm not because I don't believe

01:26:53 – 01:27:00:	our claims but because the more I see of the conduct of Lutherans the less I can explain to people

01:27:00 – 01:27:05:	when I'm trying to explain that we're right how can we be right if we say and do these things

01:27:06 – 01:27:12:	and you know it's there's nowhere else to go it's it's not like oh well I don't believe these

01:27:12 – 01:27:18:	things I'm going to find another church no Lutheranism is the best explanation for these things

01:27:18 – 01:27:23:	but it doesn't mean that we've been infallible we've been perfect about it and the book of

01:27:23 – 01:27:28:	conquered is not a script if it were a script it would tell us how to deal with trannies it would

01:27:28 – 01:27:32:	tell us how to deal with all these things that aren't in there because Satan wasn't attacking

01:27:32 – 01:27:38:	creation does in fair century have a statement that god created his male and female that is actually

01:27:38 – 01:27:44:	in there so I was quoting scripture I've exactly I've paid close enough attention that I've found

01:27:44 – 01:27:50:	these little tidbits that Lutherans keep missing like for instance it basically does advocate for

01:27:50 – 01:27:57:	monarchy but that's a discussion for another time and you're right it's to say that the book of

01:27:57 – 01:28:02:	conquered is incomplete is not to denigrate it it's to say that they settled the questions that

01:28:02 – 01:28:10:	they were debating and so we don't need said it is yes they were very yes they were very explicit

01:28:10 – 01:28:14:	within the text of the book of conquered that this is not everything that there is to be said

01:28:14 – 01:28:21:	this is what it there is to say about these controversies and I'm not advocating for a new book

01:28:21 – 01:28:27:	of conquer for a volume tube to be written principally because there are no worthy theologians

01:28:27 – 01:28:33:	alive today who would be remotely competent to the task there might be one man somewhere but frankly

01:28:33 – 01:28:36:	you know I don't know what his name is but the fact that I don't know his name tells me that he's

01:28:36 – 01:28:41:	not competent to do this because he would already be producing the works that are necessary

01:28:41 – 01:28:48:	to battle today's fights so I'm not saying crack anything open I'm not saying give it a second shot

01:28:48 – 01:28:54:	I'm saying don't take something that you don't understand and use it as a cudgel against your

01:28:54 – 01:29:01:	brother when he's trying to be faithful even if he made a small mistake talk about how to narrow

01:29:01 – 01:29:07:	down that mistake in a way that won't undermine his faith and won't betray the truth of scripture

01:29:07 – 01:29:13:	because this is about scripture it's not about the book of conquered or anybody else's confessions

01:29:13 – 01:29:17:	if you're from another denomination and you have another confession and so far is it

01:29:18 – 01:29:23:	agrees with scripture it's valuable I said and so far specifically because that's one of the

01:29:23 – 01:29:30:	disputes within Lutheranism there are those who subscribe to the book of conquered and so far as

01:29:30 – 01:29:35:	yet agrees with scripture and there are those who subscribe to it because it agrees with scripture

01:29:36 – 01:29:42:	Cory and I are the latter it agrees with scripture which is why it's true but it's not true by

01:29:42 – 01:29:49:	itself it's only true because it agrees with scripture it doesn't have anything new to say it has

01:29:49 – 01:29:57:	arguments to be made from scripture in reason to defend what is revealed in scripture and Lutherans

01:29:57 – 01:30:02:	who go to proof texting from the confessions to attack faith and to attack scripture

01:30:03 – 01:30:10:	guys you're not Lutheran anymore you're you're doing something terrible and it's not about

01:30:10 – 01:30:18:	winning arguments it's about being a faithful confessor and if you don't have the words shut up

01:30:18 – 01:30:23:	that's okay there are arguments that occur that I bow out of because I'm not fit to engage in them

01:30:23 – 01:30:29:	when we raise topics on this podcast it's because we believe that we can speak speak faithfully in a

01:30:29 – 01:30:37:	way that will be true to God that will be edifying and that we'll we'll teach something that is not

01:30:37 – 01:30:43:	going to do harm but is going to do good for people if we didn't believe that about a subject

01:30:43 – 01:30:48:	you're never going to hear us talk about it that's the approach you can be quiet you don't have to

01:30:48 – 01:30:53:	have an opinion and don't go word searching either in the Bible or the book of conquered or in

01:30:54 – 01:31:01:	in anything else don't say that is not theology yeah that's control F for the the windows

01:31:01 – 01:31:06:	unfortunately yeah I met we probably won't use that for the title of this episode but that

01:31:06 – 01:31:11:	pretty much what it could be command F is not theology you don't just go find a word and say we

01:31:11 – 01:31:17:	you use the wrong word you you lose you're wrong you're you're a demon you're a blasphemer no man

01:31:17 – 01:31:22:	I particularly when you don't know what the word means yes and in the sick in the fifth in the

01:31:22 – 01:31:29:	16th century when the accusation against the Lutherans that they ascribed to a physical presence

01:31:29 – 01:31:36:	it was false when a 21st century Lutheran says if they choose to that they confess a physical

01:31:36 – 01:31:43:	presence in the context of Lutheran faith and scripture that is a true and faithful statement

01:31:44 – 01:31:51:	now you may ask for clarification that's fine but to say it is untrue is not solving the right

01:31:51 – 01:31:57:	problem and it's potentially doing tremendous harm and so just pay attention to what it is you're

01:31:57 – 01:32:02:	doing before you wait into something because it's easy to do damage trying to score points

01:32:02 – 01:32:07:	without even realizing that you're doing it I think the sum had good intentions and I think that a

01:32:07 – 01:32:12:	lot were just midwits were in over their head they felt like there was some attack on the faith

01:32:12 – 01:32:17:	and they had to protect the symbol of the faith which is the book of conquered but they didn't

01:32:17 – 01:32:22:	know how to do it because they didn't realize that it wasn't under attack the only the only people

01:32:22 – 01:32:27:	talking were Lutherans and then reform saying wait you guys are reformed and like no no no we're

01:32:27 – 01:32:33:	not reformed but some of them effectively said the same thing and that's the the confusion and the

01:32:33 – 01:32:38:	damage is unspeakable so as we've talked about this we haven't tried to make the case for the full

01:32:38 – 01:32:44:	Lutheran position you can find it in the book of conquered you can look for where where communion

01:32:44 – 01:32:51:	is discussed start with the catechisms yeah exactly start start small because the simplest

01:32:51 – 01:32:57:	explanation is the best one start start with scripture start with where Jesus gave them the

01:32:57 – 01:33:02:	Eucharist and then where Paul describes the Eucharist that was given to him I think that's one of

01:33:02 – 01:33:09:	the that's a topic for another day but these these conversations don't need to be complicated I

01:33:09 – 01:33:15:	think one of the most valuable differences between Lutheranism and some other denominations

01:33:15 – 01:33:22:	is you don't have to be smart to be a good Lutheran you don't have to be able to debate in these

01:33:22 – 01:33:28:	highly technical philosophical terms in order to hold proper doctrine and that's what really actually

01:33:28 – 01:33:35:	happened everyone suddenly believed I I'm not sure if I'm Lutheran because they thought maybe

01:33:35 – 01:33:40:	they're using the words wrong or maybe they believe the wrong words when Jesus says this is my

01:33:40 – 01:33:46:	body if you believe that you're done there's nothing more the reason that the book of conquered has

01:33:46 – 01:33:54:	so much to say about the Eucharist is the unbelief of others it's because people said well what about

01:33:54 – 01:33:59:	well I don't believe that well I don't think that's possible they were arguing with God it was

01:33:59 – 01:34:04:	sinful doubt and so yes there's a lot said but it's not because there's a lot that has to be said

01:34:04 – 01:34:10:	for you to believe it's because there's a lot that can be said in refutation of unbelief those

01:34:10 – 01:34:15:	are two separate questions they may look the same superficially but it's a crucial distinction

01:34:15 – 01:34:22:	that Christians need to make just because there's a lot to be said about something doesn't need to

01:34:22 – 01:34:27:	mean that you necessarily need to understand all of it to understand the thing the person you know

01:34:27 – 01:34:33:	the 13-year-old who maybe is a little slow developmentally who's been categorized properly by his

01:34:33 – 01:34:39:	parents and his pastor who's told this is the body and blood of Jesus this bread and wine is the

01:34:39 – 01:34:45:	body and blood of Jesus that he shed on the cross for you for the forgiveness of your sins if

01:34:45 – 01:34:53:	that boy believes that he is worthily receiving the sacrament the end nothing else needs understood

01:34:53 – 01:34:57:	and he's blessed if he's developmentally challenged because he's not going to devolve into

01:34:57 – 01:35:03:	Aristotelian arguments over will it is is that really true it's it's the smart people that make

01:35:03 – 01:35:10:	these whole the essence or the accident yeah is it his physical mode is it a spiritual body

01:35:11 – 01:35:19:	which cause are we talking about here yeah these these terms yeah these terms of art have a place

01:35:19 – 01:35:25:	in highly formal debate personally I don't think I don't think they have any place in the normal

01:35:26 – 01:35:31:	Christian discussion of what's going on pastor should use them yeah no pastors shouldn't be

01:35:31 – 01:35:35:	explaining things to the lady in this way and actually I am fine with the pastor saying physical

01:35:35 – 01:35:40:	because I think physical today is the right way to describe it I will add in the show notes the

01:35:40 – 01:35:46:	the one the one sentence that I said say it this way this is this is the best way to say it

01:35:46 – 01:35:52:	because I think that that was so I'll show us read the sentence Christ is physically substantially

01:35:52 – 01:35:58:	sacramentally present in with and under the bread and the wine in the supper as he promises

01:35:59 – 01:36:04:	that's it that is the totality of the correct of the Lutheran position on the supper and in fairness

01:36:04 – 01:36:09:	to the men who wrote the book of Concord if those telling them to go read the epitome had told

01:36:09 – 01:36:14:	them to read paragraph six and seven they would have been set because those are the Lutheran

01:36:14 – 01:36:22:	position the rest of it is refuting false doctrine so yeah if you just and those two paragraphs are

01:36:22 – 01:36:26:	very short I won't read them you can go read them yourself I'll link them in the show notes

01:36:27 – 01:36:33:	but they are very short and they are the correct statement of what Lutherans believe of what

01:36:33 – 01:36:41:	scripture teaches anything beyond that has its place if you want to have a stomp dish and go

01:36:41 – 01:36:46:	drink beer and talk with your theologically literate friends about these issues by all means have

01:36:46 – 01:36:54:	fun but don't bring up a church exactly you don't drive Twitter yeah these these are BS sessions

01:36:54 – 01:36:58:	that you can have with friends privately where you're not going to burden conscious as a people you

01:36:58 – 01:37:07:	don't know what you don't belong to them yeah that's fine so again what problem are you trying to

01:37:07 – 01:37:12:	solve if you want to wait into an argument by controlling the Bible or the book of Concord and

01:37:12 – 01:37:16:	saying well I found this word here here's a screenshot where it says the opposite of what you

01:37:16 – 01:37:23:	said but it's a screenshot from a 40 page treat 40 page treatis that's refuting the reformed or

01:37:23 – 01:37:29:	somebody else it's not refuting what you believe don't begin with the presumption that the

01:37:29 – 01:37:37:	Lutheran you're talking to is a crypto Calvinist like there's I I hasn't come up yet on this podcast

01:37:37 – 01:37:42:	but I have a real problem with the way the English small catechism translates Luther's words

01:37:42 – 01:37:47:	put the best construction on everything for the mafe commandment not that it wasn't a correct

01:37:47 – 01:37:53:	thing to say but that the way it's employed as a weapon within modern discourse is actively

01:37:53 – 01:37:59:	destructive because today when a pastor says put the best construction on things usually they mean

01:37:59 – 01:38:04:	pretend something evil is good so you don't have to condemn it there is a time for a best

01:38:04 – 01:38:09:	construction and that's when a Lutheran who's concerned about making a faithful statement about

01:38:09 – 01:38:16:	the Eucharist says physically and he's concerned specifically that we don't deny the Christ is

01:38:16 – 01:38:22:	truly present you don't beat that man over the head of the book of Concord you give him a hug

01:38:22 – 01:38:27:	and you say thank you I share your belief I would put it a different way and hear some of my

01:38:27 – 01:38:33:	reasons why and then you can talk about the book of Concord but you don't begin by undermining a

01:38:33 – 01:38:38:	true confession if you're at the problem you're trying to solve is that someone is using the word

01:38:38 – 01:38:44:	that you don't understand and don't like please be quiet for the sake of souls for the sake of

01:38:44 – 01:38:50:	observers and for the sake of everyone's sanity it's okay to sit out some conversations

01:38:52 – 01:38:57:	there's also a little comment there in the best construction that is always left out rather

01:38:57 – 01:39:03:	curiously it's a parenthetical it's there even in the English in the words of the trigolata

01:39:04 – 01:39:13:	if it be not notoriously evil there is a very clear very obvious exception to best construction

01:39:13 – 01:39:20:	so many of the times that we are supposedly supposed to apply it to various people by these

01:39:20 – 01:39:27:	very online pastors it doesn't apply even literally as it's just written even if you don't

01:39:27 – 01:39:33:	actually understand what is meant by best construction the exception is what applies in many of

01:39:33 – 01:39:38:	those cases if you have someone who is openly defending abortion this is not a best construction

01:39:38 – 01:39:46:	issue that's notoriously evil you speak truthfully so I think to wrap things up I would just point back

01:39:46 – 01:39:54:	to the first first example in Concord with a second as a Christian you have a duty to God to talk

01:39:54 – 01:40:00:	about your faith with unbelievers and with believers you're gonna talk to him differently you would

01:40:00 – 01:40:06:	never go to someone who didn't even understand Jesus and try to explain the sacrament to him in any

01:40:06 – 01:40:12:	words because it would be it would be like talking to your dog it's just noises he has no idea like

01:40:12 – 01:40:20:	you might pick up one word but there's no context when we speak about our faith we must speak truthfully

01:40:20 – 01:40:26:	and we must speak with wisdom we must understand to whom we're speaking so that the manner in which we

01:40:26 – 01:40:33:	speak the words that we use and the approach that we take and how far we go are all in accord with

01:40:33 – 01:40:38:	what they can receive because different people can receive different teachings at different times

01:40:38 – 01:40:45:	Paul talks about spiritual milk and solid food as different types of teaching and as some of the

01:40:45 – 01:40:50:	people they still needed milk they they weren't ready for solid food because they've had so little

01:40:50 – 01:40:57:	understanding that's fine that's in a way that's a blessing for someone to still need spiritual

01:40:57 – 01:41:01:	milk because whatever mistakes you're going to make are going to be very simple and very easily

01:41:01 – 01:41:08:	corrected by the time you get into the red meat of theology you're if you keep learning and you

01:41:08 – 01:41:15:	keep digging you may get very far off into the weeds not to say that that's necessarily a bad thing

01:41:15 – 01:41:22:	but it does become dangerous because when you start worrying more about putting your reason above

01:41:22 – 01:41:29:	what God has revealed you can make these messes that that were describing in this episode and again

01:41:29 – 01:41:36:	it's ultimately always about sharing your faith faithfully sometimes that requires silence

01:41:36 – 01:41:41:	sometimes it requires only sharing a tiny piece of it at a time and praying for the opportunity

01:41:41 – 01:41:49:	to go further sometimes it involves in-depth discussion but the more in-depth you go the more

01:41:49 – 01:41:53:	wisdom and understanding you need to have about what it is you're saying to whom you're speaking

01:41:53 – 01:41:57:	and what problem you're trying to solve because maybe nothing needs to be said I

01:41:59 – 01:42:07:	if if the argument that the Lutheran Reformers had made had been is means is the sacrament is a

01:42:07 – 01:42:12:	mystery that would have been a sufficient confession personally I wish that they left it at that

01:42:12 – 01:42:18:	I understand why they didn't and I don't fault them but as a Lutheran that's all we need

01:42:18 – 01:42:27:	is means is this is my body means precisely that God cannot lie I believe it it is my confession

01:42:27 – 01:42:33:	and it's what I receive no amount of philosophizing is going to change that that is what the faith is

01:42:33 – 01:42:38:	supposed to be oh man

01:43:03 – 01:43:05:	you