Transcript: Episode 0092

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Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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I am Corey J.

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Mahler.

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And I'm still Woe.

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On today's Stone Choir, we're going to be discussing conflicts of interest or conflicted interest.

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For anyone who is joining us after the break that we took for December, thank you for checking out the back catalog and for coming back.

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The break was very helpful for my sanity.

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Thank you for the folks who gave some very generous donations just before and after Christmas.

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We appreciate that a lot.

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And if you just joined us, we are not the fire bomb throwing maniacs that everybody says we are.

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So you start listening like that's not remotely what I was told.

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One of the reasons that we're doing this week's episode about conflicted interest is that we want to basically make the case that there are people in participation of the public discourse of the conversations that are going on, both in public and in private, who should not be permitted to participate.

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There are people that need to be forced to shut up, not necessarily told to shut up unless they persist.

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But we have this egalitarian notion that everyone has to have their say and everyone has to participate.

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And there can be no possible discernment or regard for any particular man's motivations.

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You just say your piece, and it doesn't matter what sort of baggage or backstory anyone brings to the table.

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Everyone, for every conversation, you're just completely starting from scratch, which is just crazy.

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That's not how human anything has ever worked.

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So we're going to make the case today for a very basic principle that you find in the court system, you find in the civil law and contracts.

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And more generally, it's something that I think we intuit some, but we do not apply it as rigorously as we should.

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And so we're going to lay out some basic principles today for how to determine when something is a conflict of interest, when you have a conflicted interest.

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And again, the point is that when these things are detected, you have to change your attitude towards the person who's speaking, because the presence of one of these conflicts, conflict doesn't mean they're conflicted emotionally, and so they're in turmoil or something.

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What it means is that they have two competing duties, and those competing duties are going to be waging war within that individual in a way that's probably going to be invisible to you, but it's going to be shaping what they do in such a way that you can't trust their outputs.

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It doesn't mean they're a bad person.

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It doesn't mean they're a liar.

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There's no negative moral connotation to someone having a conflict of interest.

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It simply means that for this particular set of circumstances, this guy you shouldn't listen to just because he's got something else going on that you don't.

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So that's the purpose of the episode.

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We often see everyone wants to get at the table and have his voice made public for everyone to hear and be taken seriously.

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But when you start looking at the backgrounds, the genealogies of the men who are making those points, some wild things often emerge.

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And Corey and I have both seen this go on for years now, where every time somebody comes after us for some particular subject and we'll get into a couple of those, it's inevitable that we'll find something in their personal backstory that shows that they have a bias.

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They have a conflict of interest that will cause them to oppose us.

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Regardless of principle, regardless of whether we're right or wrong, we're making some scriptural argument, they have a competing interest because what we're saying indicts them somehow.

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Not that it's a personal attack, it's just this is wrong and this person was doing something that we're saying is wrong.

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When they defend the thing that we're saying is wrong and they don't disclose that they're guilty of doing it, guilt is begging the question, maybe they're not guilty of anything, but the question is, if the thing is wrong and this person is doing it, they should tell you that they're one of the people doing the thing.

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Say, I'm doing this and so here's why it's not at all wrong.

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That would at least be honest.

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That would be a disclosure of, you know what?

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I've been a participant in this thing for years, let me tell you how it's fine.

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That would be an honest approach of saying, look, here's my personal bias, here's where I'm coming from.

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But that's never anyone's opening salvo.

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And we try to make it a key part of when we make arguments.

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Many people have been going back and listening to the back catalog.

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In fact, our bandwidth for the last month where we didn't have an episode was as high as if we had.

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There's so many people going back.

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Because when you get into every episode that we've done, there's some meat there, there's something that's worth re-listening to.

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The stuff is evergreen, like we succeeded in that.

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One of the things you'll very frequently hear us say is that we're not trying to defend ourselves by making some particular argument.

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We did an episode where just as an aside, I mentioned for a couple of minutes talking about interracial marriages and the laws in the past, because we had been attacked for criticizing that.

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And I sort of abruptly ended my explanation by saying, I'm not trying to defend our position, I'm just trying to explain, there is an argument to be made that these guys don't want you to hear.

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And so I wasn't trying to defend what we said, I wasn't trying to convince anyone.

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And you'll hear me often say that where I'll say some of the effect that I'm not trying to make myself look good or trying to defend what we're doing.

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The reason for that is this, is that there's a conflict of interest in me telling you I'm a good guy.

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That's inherently conflicted.

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Because every man naturally wants everyone to think he's a good guy.

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No one wants to be hated and despised.

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You want people to think well of you.

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It's a pretty weird messed up person who actively wants to be hated.

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So for Cory or me to say, look, we're the good guys actually, here's all the reasons why we're good guys, that's completely conflicted.

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So we don't make those arguments because we know it's not convincing.

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I don't want anyone to get used to being convinced by unconvincing arguments, even if they're from us.

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So we'll point to things like here's a case where we are saying we're not guilty of anything, but that's also us defending ourselves.

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So you can't take that seriously just at face value.

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The distinction when you're looking at conflict of interest is that there are motivations and there are maybe hidden facts, and then there are public facts that someone can bring to bear, and there are opinions.

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So for example, if I make an argument that people find super offensive, maybe I can lay out facts for here is why the argument is grounded in history and scripture or whatever.

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But if I have been positioned as the loathsome participant, I'm naturally going to be conflicted by trying to convince you I'm not loathsome.

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So the most that I can do at that point, once it's turned into a personality conflict and not just a discussion of ideas, which is how these things always end up when the fire is incoming, the most that we can do is lay out the facts, lay out the arguments.

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We always have to acknowledge when we make an argument, we're doing it in such a way that will exonerate us as being evil.

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And so it's an inherent part of these episodes where we're tackling controversial subjects that people don't like and they get upset about.

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If we convince you, we're also secondarily convincing you that we're not the bad guys.

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And we would never even have to do that if not for the volume of slander that's been directed.

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So it's sort of unavoidable that to talk about the subject, to convince someone, they're going to conclude, well, if that guy was right about that and he wasn't doing anything that was really wrong, I'm not sure why I should hate him.

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There's a conflict of interest for us to try to make you really like us.

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And I don't want to be likeable.

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I'm not a dislikable guy, but that's not the purpose of anything that we do.

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Our purpose is to convey information.

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And a lot of people take that the wrong way.

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And some people take it the right way.

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Nothing we can do about it.

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It's personally important to me to play with my cards face up on all these things.

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I like doing this stuff on hard mode.

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Like saying, here's everything wrong with me personally.

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Here's everything weak about this position and it still survives.

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You can put the least favorable light on some of the things that we say and it's still true.

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I'm fine with that because that's a convincing argument.

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Even if you hate me, it's funny.

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There are a lot of people on X that I see who block me and don't like me and don't like Corey and don't like Stone Choir.

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We're not quoting us indirectly, but they're quoting people who are saying exactly the things that we're saying and they're saying things that made them hate us and block us in the first place and yet now they agree.

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That's a natural part of persuasion is that sometimes you make a dent and people just sort of move on with their lives and they forget where they got it.

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So the person who has been slandered can never hope to recover his name.

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And the person who is concealing that he has some purpose is doing something dishonest by not disclosing those things.

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So as we go through this today, we just want people to understand that it's important to detect when there's a conflict, to detect what an interest is.

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And then just to be rational about, well, I'll take the facts from that guy.

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And that's why our episodes are, you know, we make arguments.

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They're based around facts.

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And so we present, here's a package deal, take it or leave it, pick it apart, go discuss it amongst yourselves.

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And then we're not a part of it.

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We're not trying to invite ourselves into your lives or anything.

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It's just, this is important.

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Here's something that you can do with it.

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When you look at conflict of interest or conflicted interest, interest in this context that we're talking about is fundamentally about a person's purpose, a person's agenda, their values.

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They're things that they derive some good from versus suffering some harm for.

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So an example would be income, livelihood, reputation.

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Each of us has a natural interest in making money, having income, being able to eat, being able to clothe and feed and house yourself, and not being hated by your friends and neighbors, having a reputation that's a good reputation.

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That's a natural interest.

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There's nothing wrong or perverted about that.

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There's nothing untoward.

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It's just this is mine.

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We talked about that in the jealousy episode.

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You have things that are yours, yours particularly and uniquely and exclusively.

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Jealousy is about that which is exclusively yours.

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Your wife and your children are exclusively yours.

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They don't belong to anyone else, not to the state, not to your neighbor, not to anybody else but you.

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That's an interest.

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So there's nothing bad about having an interest.

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The conflict arises when two interests that you hold, whether or not you hold them equally, are themselves in opposition.

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And that's where the conflict comes in.

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So say, for example, you have a wife and you have kids, and you have your stuff, your life, and you get some new job offer that's going to be a lot more money, but it's going to involve moving, disrupting everything, making life harder on everybody else.

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But it's a really good job opportunity.

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If you were single, you'd be gone in a second.

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You wouldn't even think twice about leaving.

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But the conflict is that, well, your whole family is going to be along for the ride.

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And so, you know, it's not a bad situation.

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It's just you have to choose between potentially competing things that you're going to have to pick a winner.

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You're going to have to pick, do I inconvenience my family, my children, all their lives for something that's going to be good for me professionally?

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Now, the benefit of being a father and a husband is that generally, those things that benefit you will also at least trickle down and benefit your family.

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So that's not necessarily a hard sell, but there's still a conflict there.

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The thing that is a single guy would be just brain dead simple, gets a lot more complicated when someone else might be injured somehow by it.

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Not a serious injury, but you know, having to move kids and uproot your home and pack and like, it's stressful, it's hard, it's unpleasant.

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Especially once kids are in school, that's really difficult.

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I know I did it seven times.

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So that's not a desirable outcome.

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Maybe the job is worth it, especially if it's opening new career horizons, that's going to be good for the whole family.

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That's a conflict of interest.

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There's nothing bad there.

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It's not like you have two terrible options, you have two good options, and you have to weigh them and understand them.

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The reason for pointing out the things like that, and that's a very trivial example and it's an internal one, is that those conflicts have to be resolved, and they're going to be resolved by one winning and one losing.

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Now, hopefully, the winner is a big winner and the loser is a loser in a very small way.

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In the case of a job opportunity, sure, it's a mild inconvenience for your kids, but maybe if you're blessed, they're going to be closer to your extended family, you're going to be making a lot more money, so it's going to be able to go to college or whatever.

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It's going to be a huge net win with a tiny bit of downside.

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So, it's entirely possible to resolve a conflict of interest without sin, without any big blow up or disaster, but it's important to acknowledge that there's one there.

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The wrong approach would be to deny that there's any conflict of interest there at all.

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It's like, oh, I can make twice as much money doing something that I like a whole lot more, and it's going to be really good for me.

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Family, we're moving.

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If you completely disregard the downsides to your family, however small, relatively, you're doing something wrong.

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You're not acknowledging that there's competing interests there.

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And those are your interests too, because the welfare and the happiness of your wife and your children are also very important things to you.

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In the long run, they're more important than a job opportunity.

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But the thing is, with a job opportunity in particular, they're usually going to be somewhat aligned.

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Unless you're in a situation where you're going to make twice as much money because you're going to work twice as long, then maybe that would be something that would change the equation.

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There the conflict might be, it's not worth it.

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I'm never going to see my kids again if I do this.

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Sure, we'll be richer.

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We'll have a nicer house.

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But it's not worth missing out on seeing my own children grow up.

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So the purpose of acknowledging conflicts of interest exist is just to be honest about the situation.

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And then when we extrapolate that to when it's a third party that's doing something, then it gets really tricky because you have to weigh in and mentally on what somebody else's motivations are.

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You have to be looking from afar at someone who's internally conflicted, and maybe they're concealing it.

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And if you don't recognize what their internal conflict is, you're just going to listen to whatever they're saying, not realizing that they have motives to say something for one interest, that may be actually harming the other interest.

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And maybe you are more invested in the other interest.

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The thing that they're not worried about is the one that actually applies to you.

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And that's why it's a relevant conversation for all of us, because when we're all talking about these things publicly, to just leave that stuff out creates a mess.

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It creates a situation where you have some voice in your ear telling you to say or do or believe or act in some certain way, and they've not told you the truth about why they're telling you.

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It's simply a question of disclosure, because if they did tell you what they cared about, what their competing motivations were, maybe you wouldn't listen at all.

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And in fact, in some cases, you absolutely should not.

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There are some people for certain situations, certain topics, where you should not listen to them because they're conflicted.

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And it doesn't mean they're bad, doesn't mean they're sinful or evil.

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It just means that they have an internal problem to resolve, and that's for them, but they can't participate in the conversation that we're having here.

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So here at the outset of this episode, I want to note that we are not going to be addressing specific sections of scripture in this episode.

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I know that some of you want us to cite a verse for absolutely everything we say.

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This is a tendency that has become very common in the modern church, and it's simply not Christian.

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It's not rational, but it's also not Christian.

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Scripture does not speak to every single issue of human life, because that's not the point of scripture.

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Insofar as scripture addresses a topic, it is absolutely correct, and it is binding on the Christian, assuming, of course, it's not just a narrative passage of scripture.

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There are sections of scripture that simply relay history without passing judgment, at least explicitly, on it.

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But those parts that speak about morality and matters like that are, of course, absolutely true and binding.

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And to some degree, scripture does speak on this issue in a tangential way, and we've gone over that in previous episodes, because, of course, we've addressed the issues of speaking the truth, we've addressed the issue of lying, various things related to that.

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And so scripture does speak on tangential issues, and we've addressed those.

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You can go back and listen to those episodes.

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In particular, the one on truth and lies.

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But that's not exactly what we're addressing in this episode, because we are not necessarily addressing instances in which men are lying, in which they are distorting the truth.

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What we're addressing, as well as emphasized there in the opening, is there are instances in which a man may have competing interests, and he may speak in a certain way, even if it is not untruthful, that may very well be biased in some way.

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And so you have to take that into account, and that leads into another point that I want to make here.

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This is a matter of wisdom.

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Unavoidably so.

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This is not one of those instances where we can give you a bunch of black letter law, as it were.

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We can't give you a hierarchy of rules, and you simply run down this list, and then you come to an absolute conclusion on the matter.

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That's not how life works in many things.

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And again, to emphasize, Scripture does not speak explicitly on every single issue.

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Before we started recording, we were talking about the fact that Scripture doesn't really address the issue of, say, cooking.

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There are others as well.

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Scripture doesn't tell you exactly what to do with your wife on your wedding night.

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But there are matters that are not addressed.

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They are left to human wisdom.

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Because God has given us wisdom.

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That is one of the gifts of God.

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It is given unequally, of course.

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But it is given to all men.

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And insofar as you've been given a measure of that, it is incumbent on you to exercise it, particularly in matters like this.

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And so when you're assessing how you should take the statements of another man, there are certain things that come into play.

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One of those is whether or not he has an interest in what he is saying.

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Now, of course, I'm not speaking of just the general interest in being right, because you could very well be dealing with someone who's just argumentative and doing it for the sake of arguing.

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But beyond that interest in being right or winning the argument, whatever it happens to be, the man could be speaking in a completely objective fashion.

00:19:43.732 --> 00:19:46.552
It could be completely academic disinterested.

00:19:46.552 --> 00:19:57.672
The only desire is to arrive at the truth of the matter, say, a purely philosophical conversation, which all parties are being forthright, being entirely honest.

00:20:00.652 --> 00:20:03.812
But by and large, that's not how human beings operate.

00:20:03.812 --> 00:20:10.592
This is to some degree touching at the edges, as it were, of the Enlightenment, which we will eventually get to do it.

00:20:10.592 --> 00:20:13.932
We will eventually get to addressing the Enlightenment.

00:20:13.932 --> 00:20:16.272
But men are not tabula rasa.

00:20:16.272 --> 00:20:18.012
You're not a blank slate.

00:20:18.012 --> 00:20:28.612
You don't come into this world, and you certainly don't become an actual adult human being without having a background, without having certain interests.

00:20:28.612 --> 00:20:39.272
And some of those interests are going to play into how you present your arguments, how you choose the words you use to present those arguments, for instance.

00:20:39.272 --> 00:20:44.572
And that should be taken into account by other men when they hear your arguments.

00:20:44.572 --> 00:20:54.212
Again, as Woe said, that's not to say that these men are necessarily being dishonest or misleading, although that can certainly come into play here.

00:20:54.212 --> 00:21:02.432
Because a man can have conflicted or conflicting interests without being dishonest about it.

00:21:02.432 --> 00:21:04.532
Part of this is, of course, a matter of disclosure.

00:21:04.532 --> 00:21:07.812
Other disclosures are by and large a good thing.

00:21:07.812 --> 00:21:12.732
We have them up and down our legal and our social system for very good reason.

00:21:13.772 --> 00:21:28.872
If you have a financial interest in something, and you are in a position to enact, say, some regulation or some law with regard to that financial interest, it is important that you disclose that.

00:21:28.872 --> 00:21:32.572
Because it should be taken into account that you have this interest.

00:21:33.112 --> 00:21:41.292
It's one of the reasons that sometimes we use what's called a blind trust in order to distance a man from having these sorts of conflicts.

00:21:41.292 --> 00:21:53.152
Because, for instance, if you know all of your financial positions and you are the lawmaker or you are the regulator, then you do have a conflict of interest.

00:21:53.152 --> 00:22:08.292
And the reason that you have that conflict is because you know in the back of your mind, if I do this thing that my job requires me to do, that objectively I need to do, I am going to harm my financial position.

00:22:08.292 --> 00:22:12.092
And as Woe said, that's not necessarily a bad consideration.

00:22:12.092 --> 00:22:19.972
Because as a man, you have a duty to care for your family, you have a duty to care for yourself as well, but you have a duty to care for your wife and your children.

00:22:19.972 --> 00:22:24.432
And so having an interest in that is not in and of itself bad.

00:22:27.092 --> 00:22:31.392
But when you have that conflict, you are going to have to choose.

00:22:31.392 --> 00:22:35.092
In some cases, obviously, the choice is easier than in others.

00:22:35.092 --> 00:22:43.552
If you are a regulator, you are supposed to choose the objective path, because you are supposed to do what is, in this case, right.

00:22:43.552 --> 00:22:49.172
And so you can't side with your own financial interest because it is a financial interest.

00:22:49.172 --> 00:22:58.592
But the disclosure, on the one hand, helps to guard against that, because it gives other men information necessary to assess what you are doing.

00:22:58.592 --> 00:23:16.252
On the other hand, the instrument of a blind trust, how that works for those who aren't aware, is that your financial positions are put into a trust that is then managed by another man or entity, and you do not know your own financial positions.

00:23:16.252 --> 00:23:26.912
You know that you have a certain amount of money, and you can look at the performance numbers, but you don't know, for instance, that you are holding Apple stock or Microsoft stock or whatever it happens to be.

00:23:26.912 --> 00:23:34.972
And so if you are a regulator, regulating those companies, you don't have that conflict of interest because you don't know.

00:23:34.972 --> 00:23:40.792
You can't have the bias because you don't know that you hold that specific financial position.

00:23:40.792 --> 00:23:44.212
It's an instrument we use in order to address this issue.

00:23:46.232 --> 00:23:50.272
This is also something that comes up obviously all over the legal system.

00:23:51.072 --> 00:23:57.652
In a particular way, it comes up with regard to witnesses in the civil courts and also in the criminal courts.

00:23:58.712 --> 00:24:21.732
It's what's called impeachment, not in the sort of grand sense of removing a man from office, for instance, the president, but in the sense of impeaching the testimony of a witness, which is to say casting doubt on what he has said, or at least giving the jury, the finder of fact, information with regard to that testimony.

00:24:21.732 --> 00:24:26.032
There are a number of ways this is done in the civil courts.

00:24:26.032 --> 00:24:40.172
Primarily, it would be to introduce factual evidence that proves a contradiction, introducing a prior inconsistent statement, the witness has said something in the past that is inconsistent with what he has said on the stand.

00:24:40.172 --> 00:24:47.072
In some limited instances, you can introduce character evidence, which is basically saying, this man is a liar, you shouldn't trust him.

00:24:47.072 --> 00:24:48.192
That's very limited.

00:24:48.192 --> 00:24:49.212
The rules are complicated.

00:24:49.212 --> 00:24:51.072
It's not the issue for today.

00:24:52.772 --> 00:24:54.412
And the other one is bias.

00:24:54.412 --> 00:24:56.312
Those are the four big ones.

00:24:56.312 --> 00:24:59.232
Bias is the one we're really dealing with here.

00:24:59.232 --> 00:25:02.112
And bias is not necessarily a bad thing.

00:25:02.112 --> 00:25:07.972
When you hear the word bias, you're probably naturally inclined to think, oh, that's bad.

00:25:07.972 --> 00:25:09.312
Bias is something you shouldn't have.

00:25:09.312 --> 00:25:10.392
You should be unbiased.

00:25:10.392 --> 00:25:11.312
You should be objective.

00:25:11.312 --> 00:25:11.932
No, you shouldn't be.

00:25:13.572 --> 00:25:14.712
Not always.

00:25:14.712 --> 00:25:17.192
In some cases, yes, absolutely, you should be objective.

00:25:17.192 --> 00:25:22.972
If you are a judge, you are required by your office to be objective.

00:25:22.972 --> 00:25:29.992
If you are a husband, you are required by your office to be biased in favor of your wife.

00:25:31.452 --> 00:25:33.552
Bias is not always bad.

00:25:33.552 --> 00:25:36.212
Bias is one way of speaking about duty.

00:25:36.212 --> 00:25:44.792
If you have a duty to someone or something, that duty, generally speaking, is to be biased in favor of that person or thing.

00:25:44.792 --> 00:25:48.692
And so bias by itself is a neutral term.

00:25:48.692 --> 00:26:02.052
In this context, do not think of bias as having a moral slant, as it were, in either direction, because depending on the specific facts, it can be positive or negative.

00:26:02.052 --> 00:26:07.172
If you have a bias against something when you should not, then that is negative.

00:26:07.552 --> 00:26:11.852
If you have a bias for something when you should, then that is positive.

00:26:11.852 --> 00:26:15.512
There is a difference between those two, and it's important to note that.

00:26:17.932 --> 00:26:28.212
And so with regard to interests, a man can have either a good interest or a bad interest, because, of course, you can be, in the negative sense, biased against something.

00:26:29.992 --> 00:26:33.452
But these interests should be taken into account.

00:26:33.452 --> 00:26:42.112
It does not mean, as Woe said in his opening, that a man cannot be trusted, because every man has interests.

00:26:42.112 --> 00:26:44.712
Every man has biases.

00:26:44.712 --> 00:26:49.832
There is no such thing as a man who is free from all these things, because that wouldn't be a man.

00:26:49.832 --> 00:26:51.972
That'd be a machine.

00:26:51.972 --> 00:26:56.632
And even then, the machine probably has biases programmed into it by men.

00:26:58.432 --> 00:27:03.732
It's not that because a man has an interest that you cannot trust him.

00:27:04.732 --> 00:27:11.292
It is that you have to take that into your calculation of how you weigh what he has said.

00:27:11.292 --> 00:27:13.552
And again, that is a matter of wisdom.

00:27:13.552 --> 00:27:19.332
And in some cases, it is a matter of excluding him from the discussion.

00:27:19.332 --> 00:27:22.292
Now, some are going to think, you can't possibly do that.

00:27:22.292 --> 00:27:24.472
Every man has to have his seat at the table.

00:27:24.472 --> 00:27:25.492
Everyone has to be heard.

00:27:25.492 --> 00:27:28.532
And that's simply not how any of this works.

00:27:29.552 --> 00:27:31.092
It's certainly not how it works in the courts.

00:27:31.612 --> 00:27:38.572
We don't call every single person who is at all relevant to the particular matter to be a witness.

00:27:38.572 --> 00:27:45.732
That would be burdensome to the point where nothing would ever function, as little as it functions at present anyway.

00:27:45.732 --> 00:27:50.572
You can't give everyone a seat at the table to be heard on every issue.

00:27:50.572 --> 00:28:02.532
And some men, by virtue of their set of interests, should not be heard, because they have a bias that is harmful to the discussion.

00:28:03.772 --> 00:28:14.352
This is not necessarily just to defend the discussion itself, just to defend the attempt to arrive at the correct conclusion, to arrive at the truth.

00:28:14.352 --> 00:28:22.452
That should always be the goal here, of course, insofar as there is an actual truth in play, which there usually is.

00:28:22.452 --> 00:28:26.252
It is also to protect the man who has the conflict of interest.

00:28:27.572 --> 00:28:34.652
And the way in which he is protected by being excluded from the discussion is that he doesn't have to choose.

00:28:35.712 --> 00:28:50.572
By and large, we should endeavor never to put a man in a position where he has to choose between his family or his nation, or his family or his church, or his financial interests or the truth.

00:28:50.572 --> 00:28:55.252
It is better to insulate that man, to shield him from having to make that choice.

00:28:56.632 --> 00:29:19.132
Because if you put a man, say, in a position, to give an extreme example, where he has to choose a course with regard to regulating an industry, and if he chooses the course that is objectively correct, he destroys his financial position, or he can act corruptly and make himself a great deal of money.

00:29:19.132 --> 00:29:23.292
You should not put a man in that position.

00:29:23.292 --> 00:29:33.252
It is one of the reasons, again, that we use things like a blind trust, because we don't want to put a man in a position where he has this conflict of interests.

00:29:33.252 --> 00:29:40.392
By and large, because very few men are going to make the right choice, but also because you simply don't want to do that to another man.

00:29:40.392 --> 00:29:44.792
As a Christian, you should not want to put someone in that position.

00:29:44.792 --> 00:29:49.532
If you find yourself in that position, it is morally incumbent on you to do the right thing.

00:29:51.272 --> 00:29:54.872
But better by far, if you are simply not put in that position.

00:29:54.872 --> 00:30:01.812
And so there is this twofold interest in excluding certain men from certain discussions.

00:30:01.812 --> 00:30:14.852
If a man has that conflict of interest, you protect him by excluding him, but you also, on the other hand, the other side of the coin, you defend the discussion itself by excluding those who have this conflict of interest.

00:30:17.252 --> 00:30:29.792
This helps to move the discussion along, as it were, and it also makes it so there is less of a burden with regard to assessing the individuals who are speaking to the issue.

00:30:29.792 --> 00:30:42.332
Because if you have a room full of men who are heavily conflicted in their interests, that's going to be very difficult as a question of wisdom to assess what each man is saying with regard to the discussion.

00:30:44.132 --> 00:30:53.752
If you have men who can be more objective because they don't have this conflict, it makes it much easier to assess the discussion.

00:30:53.752 --> 00:30:58.852
You're not wronging or harming the man who is not included.

00:30:58.852 --> 00:31:02.052
In fact, like I have said, you are protecting him in some ways.

00:31:02.052 --> 00:31:09.772
What you are doing is ensuring that you arrive at a proper conclusion by excluding those who have this conflict.

00:31:11.552 --> 00:31:21.172
It's not always possible, of course, to exclude those who have a conflict of interest, because again, every man has a collection of interests.

00:31:21.172 --> 00:31:23.572
Not all of them are compatible.

00:31:23.572 --> 00:31:25.912
Some of them conflict naturally.

00:31:25.912 --> 00:31:28.512
That is simply part of this life.

00:31:28.512 --> 00:31:30.252
You have this every single day.

00:31:30.252 --> 00:31:35.872
You have a certain number of hours in the day, and you have a certain number of things you'd like to get done.

00:31:35.872 --> 00:31:43.892
There's a conflict there, because often, basically always, you can't get done everything you would like to get done in a given day.

00:31:43.892 --> 00:31:48.732
Certainly, on everything you'd like to get done on a grander scale, and so you have to choose.

00:31:48.732 --> 00:31:54.232
There is a conflict of your interests with regard to how you spend your time.

00:31:54.232 --> 00:32:00.852
In that case, probably not a particularly harmful outcome, regardless of which one you choose.

00:32:00.852 --> 00:32:04.012
Could be, usually isn't.

00:32:04.012 --> 00:32:17.532
When we are speaking about issues on the grander scale, political questions, and things like that, there is a great deal of potential harm if we do not arrive at a correct conclusion.

00:32:17.532 --> 00:32:28.692
And so, including those who have this conflict of interest, harms what is essentially the greater good, harms this more important outcome.

00:32:30.312 --> 00:32:33.672
And we have to take that into account.

00:32:33.672 --> 00:32:42.212
And so again, it's not a matter of saying that those who have this conflict of interest are necessarily going to lie.

00:32:42.212 --> 00:32:47.332
We're not saying anyone is necessarily a liar.

00:32:47.332 --> 00:33:02.472
If you have a financial position, a financial interest in the outcome of a decision, it does not mean necessarily that you will choose to act, you will choose to decide in favor of your financial interests.

00:33:02.472 --> 00:33:11.112
If what is right actually harms your financial interests, you are in fact still free to make that right choice, but you have that conflict.

00:33:12.792 --> 00:33:26.112
And so that has to be taken into account by other men, and putting you in that position does actually cause you a certain kind of harm because it's forcing you to choose between legitimate interests.

00:33:26.112 --> 00:33:28.052
And we're talking about legitimate interests here.

00:33:28.052 --> 00:33:34.932
We're not talking in this episode about those who are malicious, about those who are seeking to cause harm.

00:33:35.012 --> 00:33:37.992
And those are certainly men who are out there.

00:33:37.992 --> 00:33:39.552
That is also a possibility.

00:33:39.552 --> 00:33:40.952
And again, a matter of wisdom as well.

00:33:40.952 --> 00:33:42.812
You have to assess those men.

00:33:42.812 --> 00:33:47.372
You have to assess the motives of those who are engaged in the discussion.

00:33:49.492 --> 00:33:55.972
And part of the way that you can assess those motives is whether or not men make disclosures.

00:33:55.972 --> 00:34:17.612
Generally speaking, the men who are willing to come forward and make disclosures with regard to their interests, whether it's a financial position or a personal stake, whatever it happens to be, by and large, those men should generally be trusted more because they have made the necessary or at least the helpful disclosures.

00:34:17.612 --> 00:34:25.732
They are playing with their cards face up, which in this sort of situation, in these matters, that is vitally important.

00:34:26.832 --> 00:34:47.152
If I were, again, to use the obvious example, if I were regulating a given industry, I would be, legally speaking, probably required, but I would be morally bound to a certain degree to disclose my financial interests in the companies I would be regulating.

00:34:47.152 --> 00:34:54.612
Because if I didn't do that, it would be seen as at the very least suspicious and probably dishonest.

00:34:56.152 --> 00:35:02.932
The same thing is true with regard to political discussions or even religious discussions.

00:35:02.932 --> 00:35:11.412
Men should disclose their interest in the outcome, their interest with regard to the statements they are making.

00:35:11.412 --> 00:35:15.912
It's one of the reasons that Woe and I do not hide that we're Lutheran.

00:35:15.912 --> 00:35:29.772
We are going to let you know up front that we are Lutheran, we are going to make arguments from that Lutheran background, we are going to make arguments that are consonant with what we believe as Lutherans.

00:35:29.772 --> 00:35:34.952
Now, we're not saying that we make these arguments because we are Lutheran.

00:35:34.952 --> 00:35:46.532
Rather, we are Lutheran because we believe that Lutheranism is consistent with Scripture, is consistent with the arguments that we are making, the things that we are advancing.

00:35:46.532 --> 00:35:51.152
But we let you know up front that we're Lutheran because it's a form of disclosure.

00:35:51.832 --> 00:35:54.312
We're not going to hide that from you.

00:35:54.312 --> 00:35:57.712
We're going to let you know that this is what we believe.

00:35:57.712 --> 00:36:08.492
We are going to make certain arguments because we believe that those arguments are consonant with what we believe because we believe all of this is consistent with Scripture.

00:36:08.492 --> 00:36:17.692
That is a form of disclosure, similar to the form of disclosure that you would give in the financial context with regard to stock positions.

00:36:17.692 --> 00:36:18.632
I'm regulating Apple.

00:36:19.372 --> 00:36:22.232
I own 10,000 shares in Apple.

00:36:22.232 --> 00:36:24.112
That's relevant.

00:36:24.112 --> 00:36:34.232
These are things that you have to tell the relevant audience, whether it's the world or a podcast audience or the other men at the discussion table.

00:36:34.232 --> 00:36:41.132
It's important to have these things on the table so that other men can make an accurate wisdom call.

00:36:41.132 --> 00:36:45.192
It doesn't mean that you're a liar because you have this conflict of interests.

00:36:45.192 --> 00:36:52.892
It means that you have that conflict, and other men recognize that because they have conflicts as well.

00:36:52.892 --> 00:36:59.212
Just because you have this set of things pulling you in different directions does not mean that you will lie.

00:36:59.212 --> 00:37:04.012
It does not mean you will mislead or deceive or any of these other things.

00:37:04.012 --> 00:37:07.292
It just means that you have to make that decision.

00:37:07.292 --> 00:37:23.192
And so it may be necessary to exclude you from the discussion, to avoid putting you in the position where you have to choose, to avoid putting you in the position where you may very well be strongly incentivized to mislead, to deceive, to lie.

00:37:23.192 --> 00:37:32.852
It is better from a Christian standpoint to exclude men from those discussions and not put them in a position where they are very tempted to sin.

00:37:33.952 --> 00:37:39.352
And again, it's not just because of the protection of the discussion itself.

00:37:39.712 --> 00:37:42.952
It is also for the protection of that man.

00:37:42.952 --> 00:37:47.672
And these are somewhat abstract discussions to a certain degree.

00:37:47.672 --> 00:37:53.712
I've given some concrete examples, and we'll go through some more as we continue along in this episode.

00:37:53.712 --> 00:37:56.112
But this is not an abstract matter.

00:37:56.112 --> 00:37:58.852
This is a very concrete, everyday matter.

00:37:58.852 --> 00:38:03.212
This is something that we do constantly in our lives.

00:38:03.212 --> 00:38:07.052
We know that individuals have biases, have interests.

00:38:07.052 --> 00:38:08.712
We know that those things conflict.

00:38:09.112 --> 00:38:13.512
We know that a man may be arguing for something because he has a stake in it.

00:38:13.512 --> 00:38:15.292
And that's not always wrong.

00:38:15.292 --> 00:38:21.012
If you are arguing for something that will help your family, you are doing your duty.

00:38:21.012 --> 00:38:31.392
But just because you are doing a particular duty, fulfilling a particular duty, does not mean that you are suited to the discussion in question.

00:38:31.392 --> 00:38:42.652
And it may very well mean that you should make some sort of disclosure with regard to your interests, with regard to your position, and why you are advancing the thing you are advancing.

00:38:42.652 --> 00:38:53.072
As I explained earlier, this is something we do in the civil courts, because we recognize that a witness probably has an interest in what he is saying.

00:38:53.072 --> 00:38:55.852
He may have an interest because he was involved in the crime.

00:38:55.852 --> 00:38:57.112
That's relevant.

00:38:57.112 --> 00:39:01.292
He may have an interest because the outcome of the case affects his bottom line.

00:39:01.292 --> 00:39:03.252
That's relevant.

00:39:03.252 --> 00:39:11.852
All of these things have to be taken into consideration, because this is a wisdom call, and it is unavoidably so.

00:39:11.852 --> 00:39:19.092
There are certain episodes where, yes, we can give you a black and white list of rules, as it were.

00:39:19.092 --> 00:39:21.712
We can say, if this, then that.

00:39:21.712 --> 00:39:36.752
This is not one of those episodes, because, again, just because a man has an interest does not mean he is going to act in a way that is wrongful or immoral or deceitful or anything like that.

00:39:36.752 --> 00:39:47.412
It just means that it is something you have to take into account when you are making this assessment pursuant to the measure of wisdom that God has given you.

00:39:49.852 --> 00:40:00.072
The reason for giving those financial examples is that, one, it's the most common one that we see out in public being called a conflict of interest.

00:40:00.072 --> 00:40:03.232
But it's also because financial examples are quantifiable.

00:40:03.792 --> 00:40:13.872
You understand that if you have a stake in something and you make some decision that's going to harm that business interest, you jeopardize, maybe you lose the stake.

00:40:13.872 --> 00:40:25.152
So they're quantifiable losses if your competing interests are such that you end up choosing against whatever is going to cause you to lose your money.

00:40:25.152 --> 00:40:28.372
Most of the problems that we are dealing with are not financial at all.

00:40:28.772 --> 00:40:36.052
They're matters of doctrine, they're matters of politics, they're matters of policy and procedure.

00:40:36.052 --> 00:40:38.792
How do we operate a society?

00:40:38.792 --> 00:40:40.152
How do we operate a church?

00:40:40.152 --> 00:40:42.412
How do we operate a DM group?

00:40:42.412 --> 00:40:44.732
Pick any sphere you want.

00:40:44.772 --> 00:40:49.532
You have to decide as a group of men who are gathered together, how do we make this thing work?

00:40:49.532 --> 00:40:55.212
And the men who should be participating in that need to have their cards face up.

00:40:56.112 --> 00:41:03.412
For this example, you can't be hiding something when you're trying to establish, especially when you're trying to change things.

00:41:03.412 --> 00:41:10.812
And frankly, it's pretty much all we talk about on Stone Choir, is here's something that's going wrong, and here's how we need to change it.

00:41:10.852 --> 00:41:18.832
One example that comes up occasionally where people will snipe at Corey and me and say, don't listen to those guys.

00:41:18.832 --> 00:41:19.672
They're not married.

00:41:19.672 --> 00:41:21.232
They don't have kids.

00:41:28.032 --> 00:41:31.172
Corey and I were saying, you, dear listener, should also get divorced.

00:41:31.172 --> 00:41:31.752
You should not have kids.

00:41:31.752 --> 00:41:32.232
You shouldn't be married.

00:41:32.692 --> 00:41:51.092
We're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, we're saying, You shouldn't have kids, you shouldn't be married.

00:41:51.092 --> 00:42:04.692
That would be a very clear conflict of interest, because that would be us justifying the things in our lives that have problems with them, and saying, you should be just like us, then we'll fit in, we'll be okay if we make you like us.

00:42:04.692 --> 00:42:07.732
And so here, it's fine, you can do that.

00:42:07.732 --> 00:42:11.112
The conflict only goes one way, and we've never said anything like that.

00:42:11.112 --> 00:42:13.532
We've only ever said the opposite.

00:42:13.532 --> 00:42:26.052
We have only ever encouraged men to start families, to get married, to pick a girl they're going to stay married to, not to get divorced, to do things that will ensure that you remain happily married.

00:42:26.052 --> 00:42:35.912
So the opposite of conflict of interest is basically to some degree throwing yourself under the bus, which is kind of what we're doing when we talk about those things.

00:42:35.912 --> 00:42:41.512
When I tell you that you should get married and have kids, which is absolutely true, like that's not original, that's God's order.

00:42:41.512 --> 00:42:43.412
That's the way everything is supposed to be.

00:42:43.412 --> 00:42:47.412
And it didn't used to be that you needed any sort of salesmanship for that.

00:42:47.412 --> 00:42:52.592
It's been in the last few generations in the West that we forgot how that was even supposed to work.

00:42:52.592 --> 00:42:54.412
And I did too in my personal life.

00:42:54.412 --> 00:42:59.932
And made mistakes that led to the point that I am single, I don't have kids, and I'm divorced.

00:42:59.932 --> 00:43:08.072
Not something I would commend to anyone, but that's kind of the state of the world as it's falling apart, and it's a bad thing.

00:43:08.072 --> 00:43:09.412
I don't wish that on anyone.

00:43:11.532 --> 00:43:20.572
It's absurd to say, don't listen to Stone Choir because they don't have kids, or that, you know, we don't have wives.

00:43:20.572 --> 00:43:23.832
It's an absurdity on its face because it doesn't communicate anything.

00:43:23.832 --> 00:43:25.552
There's no conflict there.

00:43:25.552 --> 00:43:31.992
It's really kind of a bizarre thing, because a lot of you who are listening don't have wives, don't have kids.

00:43:31.992 --> 00:43:34.272
You dearly wish that you did.

00:43:34.272 --> 00:43:36.932
And I dearly wish that you do as well.

00:43:36.932 --> 00:43:38.312
I pray for that for everyone.

00:43:39.132 --> 00:43:42.932
There's no conflict there because I'm saying please don't turn out like me.

00:43:42.932 --> 00:43:46.992
The conflicted version of that story would be no, it's fine to live like me.

00:43:46.992 --> 00:43:49.332
In fact, live like Andrew Tate.

00:43:49.332 --> 00:43:50.852
Andrew Tate is conflicted.

00:43:50.852 --> 00:44:01.832
He has a conflict of interest because he's living a debauched, worthless lifestyle that he then tries to sell to others and hold himself as an example of turn out like me.

00:44:01.832 --> 00:44:04.192
There's a conflict of interest when you say, hey, turn out like me.

00:44:04.852 --> 00:44:06.992
Simply, forget selling anything.

00:44:06.992 --> 00:44:13.932
Just the fact that other people would approve of your choices, of your decisions, there's necessarily some upside there.

00:44:13.932 --> 00:44:24.192
Even if it's purely just the psychic benefit of people like me, the warm fuzzy glow of being loved and beloved by complete strangers on the Internet for whatever good that does.

00:44:24.192 --> 00:44:30.572
The conflict comes in when there are bad things about whatever is going on, and you sell them anyway.

00:44:30.572 --> 00:44:34.052
So, Corey and I don't really talk about child rearing very little.

00:44:34.352 --> 00:44:38.312
Apart from, fathers teach your kids to do these things.

00:44:38.312 --> 00:44:40.952
Is that invalid because we don't have kids?

00:44:40.952 --> 00:44:42.672
No, that's absurd.

00:44:42.672 --> 00:44:48.292
Now, to pause for a second, what I'm doing here is a conflict of interest.

00:44:48.292 --> 00:44:55.152
Because I'm telling you that we have not done anything wrong by discussing these things in the manner that we discuss them.

00:44:55.152 --> 00:45:00.432
That's necessarily conflicted because I have every incentive for you not to dislike me.

00:45:00.432 --> 00:45:09.392
Doesn't mean I'm lying, which is why I said in the intro, someone who has a conflict of interest in a participation of a discussion can present facts.

00:45:09.392 --> 00:45:14.412
And so that's all I'm doing here, saying, look, here's the things that we say, and here are the things that we don't say.

00:45:14.412 --> 00:45:21.212
If you can look at that and indict it, and say that we are terrible, wicked men for the things that we've said, fine.

00:45:21.232 --> 00:45:23.212
That's why I always say take it or leave it.

00:45:23.212 --> 00:45:28.492
I'm not trying to sell anything, certainly of myself, because I know that there's a conflict of interest.

00:45:28.492 --> 00:45:30.112
I'm not trying to make you like me.

00:45:30.912 --> 00:45:40.952
So, when you look at what we say, and again, this example is not to make people look at us, it's because it's a prime example of a conflict of interest.

00:45:40.952 --> 00:45:56.152
If we were saying, don't have kids, don't get married, just live alone and do whatever stuff, and then leave nothing behind, that would be a very clear conflict of interest, because we would be saying, you can be like us and that's okay.

00:45:56.152 --> 00:45:57.172
I don't think that.

00:45:57.172 --> 00:45:58.392
I don't wish that for anyone.

00:45:58.932 --> 00:46:02.972
Assuming I outlive my parents, there won't even be anyone to bury me.

00:46:02.972 --> 00:46:04.072
That kind of stinks.

00:46:04.072 --> 00:46:05.452
I don't want that for anyone.

00:46:05.452 --> 00:46:06.612
I also don't worry about it.

00:46:06.612 --> 00:46:07.912
I don't care, because I'll be dead.

00:46:07.912 --> 00:46:11.232
Like, it's kind of embarrassing, I guess, but whatever, it's not my problem.

00:46:11.232 --> 00:46:12.712
I'll be in heaven.

00:46:12.712 --> 00:46:14.592
I don't want that for anybody else.

00:46:14.592 --> 00:46:20.212
I can be indifferent to my own state, and yet earnestly desire that someone else not turn out like that.

00:46:20.212 --> 00:46:21.552
But that's what you get.

00:46:21.552 --> 00:46:24.752
That's the cat lady trajectory is that.

00:46:24.752 --> 00:46:28.632
Dies alone with 50 cats and the cat's eater, because there's nobody else around.

00:46:28.632 --> 00:46:30.052
That's a bad outcome.

00:46:30.052 --> 00:46:31.312
It is bad for society.

00:46:31.312 --> 00:46:32.712
It's bad for the individual.

00:46:32.712 --> 00:46:33.972
It's horrible.

00:46:33.972 --> 00:46:38.192
So the conflict of interest is if someone's pitching that terrible outcome.

00:46:38.192 --> 00:46:40.352
And the world is full of people doing that.

00:46:40.352 --> 00:46:45.132
The world is full of Andrew Tate saying, be a debauched moron like me.

00:46:45.132 --> 00:46:46.572
We do the opposite.

00:46:46.572 --> 00:46:52.352
So you have to decide for yourself, can these guys participate in certain types of conversations?

00:46:52.352 --> 00:46:55.712
And there are lots of conversations that we deliberately exclude ourselves from.

00:46:56.412 --> 00:46:59.772
I've been involved in multiple groups that have had side dad chats.

00:46:59.772 --> 00:47:02.952
Never once have I wanted to insinuate myself into dad chat.

00:47:02.952 --> 00:47:08.852
Never mind, I wouldn't be invited, but that makes perfect sense for me to be excluded, because I don't have kids.

00:47:08.852 --> 00:47:13.732
I'm sure I'd have things to contribute, but I'm not being left out because it's dad chat.

00:47:13.732 --> 00:47:14.592
I'm not a dad.

00:47:14.592 --> 00:47:15.852
I don't get to do that.

00:47:15.852 --> 00:47:16.812
And that's fine.

00:47:16.812 --> 00:47:18.672
That's exactly the way it should be.

00:47:18.672 --> 00:47:31.032
Dads need a place to commiserate amongst themselves about the crazy things that their wives and their kids do, and enjoy that sort of camaraderie that's only possible with other men who know the thing personally.

00:47:31.032 --> 00:47:34.472
It doesn't matter that I might have good opinions and wouldn't be disruptive or whatever.

00:47:34.472 --> 00:47:37.452
I don't belong in dad chat because I'm not a dad.

00:47:37.452 --> 00:47:42.052
The conflict of interest would be, say, no, bring me in because I'm really smart and clever and I got lots of fun things to say.

00:47:42.052 --> 00:47:44.172
You should listen to me too.

00:47:44.172 --> 00:47:48.252
Probably wouldn't make a mess, but it would still be stupid because I don't belong.

00:47:48.252 --> 00:47:54.592
It's perfectly okay to identify people who don't belong and then exclude them on the basis of things about them.

00:47:54.592 --> 00:47:57.992
That's how civilization has always worked.

00:47:57.992 --> 00:48:00.512
We have gotten away from being able to do that.

00:48:00.512 --> 00:48:06.592
We've gotten away from being able to exclude people and say, no, you don't belong here for these purposes.

00:48:06.592 --> 00:48:14.152
Now, this example of people saying, don't listen to Stone Choir because we don't have families, well, if you think that's persuasive, okay.

00:48:14.152 --> 00:48:17.912
Like, it would be a conflict of interest for me to convince anyone otherwise.

00:48:17.912 --> 00:48:23.412
I'm telling you, I think if you examine that rationally and you look at the fact, it's dumb, but whatever.

00:48:23.412 --> 00:48:27.132
For me to say it's dumb is both true and completely biased.

00:48:27.132 --> 00:48:30.052
Because if you agree with me, then I win something.

00:48:30.192 --> 00:48:32.952
I win somebody saying, yeah, you're okay.

00:48:32.952 --> 00:48:44.672
The greater problem that we face is that the discussion of the ideas can't be separated from the men, but sometimes it's just situational.

00:48:44.672 --> 00:48:48.772
You know, I'm not going to give a bunch of parenting advice, certainly unbidden.

00:48:49.292 --> 00:48:59.832
You know, every so often people ask me for my advice about things, and I disclose like, look, I was married and I got divorced and I don't have kids, so I can tell you what I think, but please take it with a grain of salt.

00:48:59.832 --> 00:49:02.552
And then I will give them the best advice I possibly can.

00:49:02.552 --> 00:49:03.572
Only if asked.

00:49:03.572 --> 00:49:05.772
I'm never going to chase anybody around and giving them advice.

00:49:05.772 --> 00:49:08.252
I don't think I've ever harmed anyone by anything I've said.

00:49:08.252 --> 00:49:15.672
I have a fair degree of wisdom about things, but it can only possibly be from the place of generic advice and not experience.

00:49:16.532 --> 00:49:23.452
So the conflict there is that if I'm trying to convince you to include me, then I'm selling something.

00:49:23.452 --> 00:49:28.312
If someone comes to me and say, look, I know you're conflicted, but you also do a pretty good job with this stuff, what do you think?

00:49:28.312 --> 00:49:30.132
Like, sure, I'm happy to help.

00:49:30.132 --> 00:49:32.012
It's any way I can.

00:49:32.012 --> 00:49:36.052
You know, the divorce thing is particularly funny because I was married for 10 years.

00:49:36.052 --> 00:49:37.552
I got married when I was 24.

00:49:37.552 --> 00:49:44.052
I was married for 10 years, which is longer than a lot of the guys who criticized me for being divorced or for not being married.

00:49:44.852 --> 00:49:50.752
I would have set up until the afternoon that I found out I wasn't going to be married anymore, but I would have said I was happily married.

00:49:50.752 --> 00:49:56.572
Now, looking back, you know, doing a postmortem on things, I can see mistakes that I made along the way.

00:49:56.572 --> 00:50:04.352
I can certainly tell you any number of things that you can do to have a failed marriage, and I can tell you, you know, the opposite of those is going to make your marriage work better.

00:50:04.352 --> 00:50:08.172
I don't go around doing that precisely because there's a conflict.

00:50:08.172 --> 00:50:12.712
For me, the divorce guy to go around telling people how to be happily married, it's just kind of gross.

00:50:13.472 --> 00:50:26.732
Even if it's right, even if everything that I would say is completely factual, there's still kind of an inherent grossness to the bias of someone who has this conflict, saying, no, no, look, I'm still an expert, even though mine burned down.

00:50:26.732 --> 00:50:28.532
Let me tell you how to do your marriage right.

00:50:28.532 --> 00:50:30.012
It's preposterous.

00:50:30.012 --> 00:50:44.512
So as much as possible, I avoid it even though I do have things to say simply for appearances, not for the sake of looking good, just that the world doesn't need more people who are bad at things, who have proven to have done something wrong, trying to play.

00:50:44.512 --> 00:50:57.612
On the other hand, the guys who think that their marriages are perfect and that they can never possibly get divorced are often deluding themselves to some degree because the world is screwed up and the pressures on families are horrific.

00:50:57.612 --> 00:51:03.452
The pressures on girls, especially with no fault divorce is completely universal.

00:51:03.452 --> 00:51:06.992
It's very easy for these things to be contagious.

00:51:06.992 --> 00:51:10.192
Divorce itself is actually contagious in social circles.

00:51:10.192 --> 00:51:20.192
A lot of people will have seen circumstances where one couple gets divorced, and all the girlfriends of that woman who got divorced, within a few years, most of them are too.

00:51:20.192 --> 00:51:21.372
That's contagion.

00:51:21.372 --> 00:51:21.892
It's evil.

00:51:21.892 --> 00:51:23.172
It's spiritual disease.

00:51:23.172 --> 00:51:24.712
It's spiritual rot.

00:51:24.712 --> 00:51:31.312
But the legal system makes it so easy that all someone has to do is get an idea, oh, I'd be happy doing something else.

00:51:31.312 --> 00:51:34.872
And it doesn't take very long to burn down a marriage.

00:51:34.872 --> 00:51:36.492
So I would just mourn guys.

00:51:36.492 --> 00:51:39.892
You're like, oh, these guys don't know what they're talking about and you shouldn't listen to them.

00:51:40.272 --> 00:51:47.612
And from a perspective of being smug about their own marriages, that's, you're just asking for trouble.

00:51:47.612 --> 00:51:48.792
Don't do that.

00:51:48.792 --> 00:51:50.572
Worry about doing your own thing well.

00:51:50.572 --> 00:51:54.252
Don't worry about saying how bad I am at doing things.

00:51:54.252 --> 00:51:56.992
And again, this is mercenary for me to defend myself.

00:51:56.992 --> 00:51:58.732
I freely acknowledge that.

00:51:58.732 --> 00:52:02.612
So if you think I'm being a jerk by saying I didn't do anything wrong, fine.

00:52:02.872 --> 00:52:06.392
It's a conflict of interest for me to get you to agree with me.

00:52:06.392 --> 00:52:08.372
And this is us playing with our cards face up.

00:52:08.832 --> 00:52:12.572
I can tell you all of these things because I believe that the argument stands.

00:52:12.572 --> 00:52:16.652
If you agree with me that not getting divorced is good, I lose.

00:52:16.652 --> 00:52:19.912
If you agree with me that having kids is good, I lose.

00:52:19.912 --> 00:52:21.812
There's no conflict there.

00:52:21.812 --> 00:52:28.652
The greater the success that we have in getting people to do what God says about these things, the worse we look.

00:52:28.652 --> 00:52:30.392
And I'm okay with that.

00:52:30.392 --> 00:52:41.792
And as we've said before, the specifics of our lives, the fact that I have no family, I have no kids, I have nothing that would cause me harm if and when I was doxxed.

00:52:41.792 --> 00:52:49.632
And after I was doxxed, ongoing threats and hatred and all the other crap, it's fine because it's only directed at me.

00:52:49.632 --> 00:52:52.432
This podcast would not exist if I had a wife and kids.

00:52:52.432 --> 00:52:59.472
It simply wouldn't because I couldn't take the chance of doing this because I wouldn't just be yoloing for myself anymore.

00:52:59.472 --> 00:53:01.172
I would be involving a wife.

00:53:01.172 --> 00:53:10.732
I would be involving kids who have to go to school, who would be hated and berated and abused, who would be suffering for things that I am saying and things that I'm doing.

00:53:10.732 --> 00:53:13.132
I would never do that as a married man.

00:53:13.132 --> 00:53:16.992
And that's really what the message is when guys like, don't listen to those, they should just have wives.

00:53:16.992 --> 00:53:19.412
They should shut up and get off the Internet.

00:53:19.412 --> 00:53:28.152
What we're doing here that's having such profoundly beneficial effect on people can only exist because of our personal failures.

00:53:28.152 --> 00:53:29.152
This is simply a fact.

00:53:29.812 --> 00:53:39.052
I don't think that the guys who agree with us, who have kids and have happy good families, you aren't cowards for not doing what we do.

00:53:39.052 --> 00:53:40.192
You have to keep your heads down.

00:53:40.192 --> 00:53:41.992
You had to feed your kids.

00:53:41.992 --> 00:53:46.712
That's exactly what you need to do because you have a conflict of interest, just like I do.

00:53:46.712 --> 00:53:52.412
Your conflict of interest is on one hand, I know all these things are true, and I think that it's important that they be said.

00:53:52.412 --> 00:54:03.392
On the other hand, if I say them in public, I'll be destroyed and I might not be able to feed my family and my wife is going to get hated, my kids are going to be abused at school, and I can't do that to them.

00:54:03.392 --> 00:54:04.992
That's a conflict of interest.

00:54:04.992 --> 00:54:07.892
And you resolve it by keeping your mouth shut in public.

00:54:07.892 --> 00:54:09.332
And you're not a coward for doing it.

00:54:09.332 --> 00:54:11.572
You're choosing correctly.

00:54:11.572 --> 00:54:14.532
I don't have that particular conflict.

00:54:14.532 --> 00:54:21.332
I don't have anything to lose except for my life and whatever material possessions I have, and I'm not attached to either one of those things.

00:54:21.332 --> 00:54:30.712
Beyond like I'm thankful that God has given me these gifts, but I'm using them as best I can to serve his purposes for the benefit of others.

00:54:30.712 --> 00:54:38.812
It's a completely self-serving comment if I'm selling something, but the question for the objective observer is, is it true or not?

00:54:38.812 --> 00:54:40.432
And if you think it's false, fine.

00:54:40.432 --> 00:54:45.172
And if you think it's true, okay, like, that's the reason we're able to do what we do.

00:54:45.172 --> 00:54:55.052
But the fact that over and over again, people want to tell us, you should stop doing the thing that you're doing that's so effective and go be just like me, that's conflicted too.

00:54:55.052 --> 00:55:01.952
It's not that the generic advice is bad, it's that it doesn't address the specific situation.

00:55:01.952 --> 00:55:06.652
So there are lots of conversations where I'm happy to be excluded from.

00:55:06.652 --> 00:55:08.332
I should be excluded.

00:55:08.332 --> 00:55:11.152
And that's good order.

00:55:11.152 --> 00:55:19.592
There are other conversations like, it doesn't matter if I'm one of the people speaking, but everyone else has to decide that for themselves.

00:55:19.592 --> 00:55:22.972
Don't let me convince you that I get to play, because that's conflicted.

00:55:22.972 --> 00:55:25.872
Even if I'm right, that's the whole point here.

00:55:25.872 --> 00:55:32.952
The guy who's trying to say, let me play, the guy who's saying, look, what I'm doing is okay, he's conflicted all by itself.

00:55:32.952 --> 00:55:35.092
Doesn't matter if there's money on the line.

00:55:35.092 --> 00:55:36.192
He has a reputation.

00:55:36.192 --> 00:55:37.232
He's being included.

00:55:37.232 --> 00:55:39.532
There's the social benefit.

00:55:39.532 --> 00:55:42.072
There's just being part of the crowd.

00:55:42.072 --> 00:55:46.412
That all by itself creates a conflict when you're going to be the winner.

00:55:46.412 --> 00:55:48.732
It's a separate question if you're going to be the loser.

00:55:48.732 --> 00:55:53.252
If I tell you something that's true that makes me look bad, okay, so it goes.

00:55:53.252 --> 00:55:55.532
Let me be an example.

00:55:55.532 --> 00:56:08.792
I remember in high school, we had a motivational speaker who had abused PCP, and so he came in and he was dressed very shabbily, and it was clear this is kind of how he probably made a lot of his money.

00:56:08.792 --> 00:56:10.852
I don't think he had any job prospects.

00:56:10.852 --> 00:56:13.972
So going around and speaking to high school kids was his thing.

00:56:13.972 --> 00:56:15.352
And I very clearly remember this.

00:56:15.352 --> 00:56:17.412
Like it was an effective motivational speech.

00:56:17.832 --> 00:56:23.512
He talked about having been a hardcore drug abuser who took PCP or angel dust.

00:56:23.512 --> 00:56:37.552
I'm not going to describe how he injured himself, like the specifics, but when he made his case to prove that the story he was telling was true, as part of one of his drug trips, he had lost an eye.

00:56:37.552 --> 00:57:02.172
And to prove this, I don't remember if he had spectacles or not, but if he did, he took them off, but he took the microphone, the big bulky microphone, and held it up to one of his eyes, and he pulled out a pair of nail clippers in his other hand, and he tapped his eyeball to show that it was a glass eye, it was a fake eye, because he had injured it and lost it as a result of abusing PCP.

00:57:02.172 --> 00:57:05.672
He was telling us something terrible about himself, and it stuck with me.

00:57:05.672 --> 00:57:07.032
Like I said, it was pretty effective.

00:57:07.032 --> 00:57:08.472
Like, okay, I'm not gonna do drugs.

00:57:08.472 --> 00:57:09.392
I don't want it.

00:57:09.392 --> 00:57:10.772
It was just gruesome.

00:57:10.772 --> 00:57:11.752
The story was gruesome.

00:57:11.752 --> 00:57:15.372
I'm not gonna give you the details, but I remember them like 30 years later.

00:57:16.012 --> 00:57:19.492
He was paid to be there, probably next to nothing.

00:57:19.492 --> 00:57:26.732
He was saying something about himself that was embarrassing to a bunch of teenage kids who were kind of laughing at him.

00:57:26.732 --> 00:57:35.852
And he did it anyway, because it was an important thing to say, look, you think that you can mess around with this stuff, and you'll be all right, and it's simply not true.

00:57:35.852 --> 00:57:46.712
So the fact that he would stand up there and he would make himself look bad for the sake of other people lent him more credibility than the principal standing up there and saying, don't do drugs, kid.

00:57:46.712 --> 00:57:48.992
Like, that's not persuasive.

00:57:48.992 --> 00:57:57.152
It's not persuasive when someone who isn't a drug user, who doesn't do anything, tells you not to do something.

00:57:57.152 --> 00:57:58.712
I've never even smoked a cigarette.

00:57:58.712 --> 00:58:02.052
I'm basically completely straight edge except for alcohol.

00:58:02.052 --> 00:58:03.812
Inadvertently, I never really drank alcohol.

00:58:03.812 --> 00:58:05.492
It was about 30.

00:58:05.492 --> 00:58:06.632
I wasn't trying to be straight edge.

00:58:06.632 --> 00:58:08.812
I just wasn't that interested in it.

00:58:08.812 --> 00:58:12.972
So for me to tell anybody, don't do drugs doesn't have any credibility.

00:58:12.972 --> 00:58:13.972
Because like, what do I know?

00:58:14.492 --> 00:58:21.792
Like, I can give you science and studies and crap, but there's no credibility to someone saying, be just like me.

00:58:21.792 --> 00:58:23.752
That's a conflict of interest.

00:58:23.752 --> 00:58:33.512
The guy who started out smoking weed and ended up smoking PCP and losing his eye as a result of it, he has credibility when he says, don't do drugs.

00:58:33.512 --> 00:58:39.912
Because despite the fact that he was paid some pittance, there was not really a conflict of interest there.

00:58:39.912 --> 00:58:42.792
He was telling a true story, which is part of why he took out the nail clippers.

00:58:43.132 --> 00:58:49.092
Like, he wasn't just weaving a tail, he actually lost his eye because he was messing around with drugs.

00:58:49.092 --> 00:58:56.632
So that's persuasive because the facts were presented, and there was no conflict of interest from the guy.

00:58:56.632 --> 00:59:09.772
If the principal had stood up there and told the same story about the third party, like, you know, there's this guy, like, I'm telling you, I'm telling you that someone took PCP and he lost his eye, and so don't do drugs, which is a pretty good message.

00:59:10.192 --> 00:59:13.352
But it doesn't have the credibility of the man saying it himself.

00:59:13.352 --> 00:59:34.912
Because when you look at the evidence and you look at whether there are conflicts or not, his interest in not being made fun of or laughed at by teenage boys and girls in an audience was outweighed by his interest in wanting to help people, of wanting his stupidity and his failures in his life to not be a complete waste.

00:59:34.912 --> 00:59:41.392
Sometimes when someone can act in some fashion as a motivational speaker, that's kind of what it is.

00:59:41.392 --> 00:59:48.732
You know, if I talk about staying married, getting married, having kids, it's a little bit like being a motivational speaker.

00:59:48.732 --> 00:59:51.772
If you conclude away, wait a minute, you don't have any of that.

00:59:51.772 --> 00:59:52.752
Yeah, you're right.

00:59:52.752 --> 00:59:55.872
I don't and it stinks and I don't want that for you.

00:59:55.872 --> 00:59:58.492
I lose if you agree with me.

00:59:58.492 --> 01:00:02.272
That's the principle that I want you to apply to these other circumstances.

01:00:02.272 --> 01:00:03.652
Again, this is not look at me, look at me.

01:00:03.652 --> 01:00:09.692
This is I'm showing you that if you agree with me about this one thing, I come out the loser for that argument.

01:00:09.692 --> 01:00:11.972
I come out the guy that doesn't have the thing that I want you to have.

01:00:11.972 --> 01:00:14.412
I want you to do better than me.

01:00:14.412 --> 01:00:21.632
That is the difference between conveying information honestly and having a conflict of interest about things.

01:00:21.632 --> 01:00:29.472
Because a lot of the discussions that we have online today are dominated somehow by guys who do have these conflicts of interest.

01:00:29.472 --> 01:00:34.732
They're hiding the fact of whatever's going on in their family or their past life.

01:00:35.312 --> 01:00:39.572
And then they're arguing for the mistake, for the things that they've done.

01:00:39.572 --> 01:00:41.452
Calling it a mistake is begging the question.

01:00:41.452 --> 01:00:45.372
Assuming it's completely fine that they did it, they should say, look, I did it, and here's why it's okay.

01:00:45.372 --> 01:00:51.852
So I said at the beginning, it's perfectly fine for you to say that and disclose, look, if you agree with me, I win.

01:00:51.852 --> 01:00:53.112
I think it's a good thing.

01:00:53.112 --> 01:00:54.572
I want you to be a winner like me.

01:00:54.572 --> 01:00:57.012
You should do the same thing that I did.

01:00:57.012 --> 01:01:07.252
Someone who has to conceal personal facts in order to persuade you, they're betraying the fact that their conflict of interest is actually material.

01:01:07.252 --> 01:01:13.952
If it were no big deal, that they had, their kids were whatever, their wife was whatever, their background was whatever.

01:01:13.952 --> 01:01:16.472
If it didn't matter, they would disclose those things.

01:01:16.472 --> 01:01:21.572
They would say, here's part of my story, and here's how I got here, and here's why I think you should do this.

01:01:21.572 --> 01:01:24.812
I'm an expert because of this.

01:01:24.812 --> 01:01:28.652
That would at least disclose the conflict, and it would significantly mitigate it.

01:01:29.252 --> 01:01:39.352
The guys who hide the details are the ones that are saying, A, I'm conflicted here, and B, it matters enough that I don't want you to know about it.

01:01:39.352 --> 01:01:42.892
And again, conflicted does not mean emotional turmoil.

01:01:42.892 --> 01:01:49.232
Conflicted is not a question of being torn in both directions and having some emotional state.

01:01:49.232 --> 01:01:51.812
It's literally a question of competing interests.

01:01:51.812 --> 01:01:54.452
And oftentimes, there are two good interests.

01:01:54.452 --> 01:01:59.192
One good interest goes in one direction, the other one goes in the other, and a man has to choose.

01:01:59.192 --> 01:02:01.572
And in his personal life, that's fine.

01:02:01.572 --> 01:02:18.992
The problem is when you get online or you get anywhere in real life where you're dealing with other people, if you're making the same pitch about whatever the subject is and you're not disclosing that, if you agree with me, I come out ahead here because I was guilty of doing that or I'm innocent of doing that, but I did it.

01:02:18.992 --> 01:02:20.892
I was a participant in doing that.

01:02:20.892 --> 01:02:25.152
And if you agree with me, then you're saying that what I did was okay too.

01:02:25.152 --> 01:02:26.512
That's a conflict of interest.

01:02:26.892 --> 01:02:41.012
That's the sort of person that shouldn't be a participant in those conversations because they're adding their voice in a scenario where they're effectively tricking people by not divulging something that's material, something that actually matters.

01:02:41.012 --> 01:02:50.632
If your kids or your wife or whatever, something that's very dear and important to you, if that has to be kept secret in order for you to participate in a conversation, that's a coverup.

01:02:50.632 --> 01:02:57.072
That is an act of omission that is a deception, because everyone else should be able to decide whether or not it's material.

01:02:57.072 --> 01:03:02.312
You don't get to decide that for yourself, and you certainly don't get to lie about it.

01:03:02.312 --> 01:03:08.372
When we're looking at these discussions, sometimes it's simply a question of who gets to participate and who doesn't.

01:03:08.372 --> 01:03:10.412
I don't get to be in dad chat, and that's fine.

01:03:10.412 --> 01:03:11.972
I don't belong there.

01:03:11.972 --> 01:03:16.692
I'm not going to be the guy who's giving long-form discussions about, here's how to have a happy marriage.

01:03:16.692 --> 01:03:18.912
I can tell you how to have a failed marriage.

01:03:18.912 --> 01:03:23.152
And I can tell you some things that if you did the opposite, your marriage would be happier, because that's just how it works.

01:03:23.712 --> 01:03:26.212
That's not like being a relationship expert.

01:03:26.212 --> 01:03:29.072
It's literally, don't make the mistake and you won't pay the price.

01:03:29.072 --> 01:03:33.312
And the opposite of making the mistake is that things are pretty good.

01:03:33.312 --> 01:03:36.592
I'm not going to do that simply because of the optics.

01:03:36.592 --> 01:03:38.012
It's not my place to do that.

01:03:38.012 --> 01:03:40.452
There are plenty of other people that can give good advice.

01:03:40.452 --> 01:03:48.452
I don't have anything new to add apart from personal anecdotes, which in this case, I'm not going to share because it's about, you know, somebody who's no longer around and doesn't want anything to do with me.

01:03:48.452 --> 01:03:51.172
So I'm not going to drag them into my stuff.

01:03:52.112 --> 01:03:56.212
So all I'm going to do for the most part is keep silent about those things.

01:03:56.212 --> 01:04:05.172
Even though I would be honest if I talked about them, I wish that everyone who are participating in all these various discussions would have the same amount of integrity.

01:04:05.172 --> 01:04:08.712
And it's conflict of interest for me to say that's integrity.

01:04:08.712 --> 01:04:09.772
You have to decide.

01:04:09.772 --> 01:04:11.352
Am I trying to sell something?

01:04:11.352 --> 01:04:14.132
Am I trying to make myself look good or am I just giving a tool?

01:04:14.132 --> 01:04:16.132
You know what I want you to think.

01:04:16.132 --> 01:04:18.372
You have to then decide why I don't want you to think that.

01:04:18.372 --> 01:04:18.972
Is it good for you?

01:04:18.972 --> 01:04:19.652
Is it beneficial?

01:04:20.192 --> 01:04:23.092
Or am I selling something else?

01:04:23.092 --> 01:04:25.432
That question should always be in people's minds.

01:04:25.432 --> 01:04:30.632
And Christians unfortunately are not really good at that because it's judgmental.

01:04:30.632 --> 01:04:33.072
It's introspecting someone's motives.

01:04:33.072 --> 01:04:40.952
It's actually thinking about outside of yourself, thinking about the other person and what makes them tick, what makes them do the things they're doing.

01:04:40.952 --> 01:04:43.472
Not taking everything at face value.

01:04:43.472 --> 01:04:47.732
The purpose of this episode is you should not be taking things at face value with other people.

01:04:48.372 --> 01:04:51.632
You should be understanding where they're coming from and why.

01:04:51.632 --> 01:04:54.512
And sometimes, maybe that doesn't put them in a very good light.

01:04:54.512 --> 01:05:05.312
It doesn't even mean they're bad or wrong or guilty of anything, but they should disclose the things that if you knew about them, you take a different approach to how you view the subject.

01:05:05.312 --> 01:05:12.472
Fundamentally, this question is about honest discussions taking place unimpeded and without disruption.

01:05:12.472 --> 01:05:19.832
And when men conceal their motivations, they can seal their interests, they will necessarily nudge them in one way.

01:05:19.832 --> 01:05:21.772
The rest of us can't talk freely.

01:05:21.772 --> 01:05:27.312
The rest of us can't have an honest conversation with the one guy who's vehement and passionate.

01:05:27.312 --> 01:05:30.132
I mean, like, wow, he really cares about this subject.

01:05:30.132 --> 01:05:32.132
He doesn't tell you the one thing that matters.

01:05:32.132 --> 01:05:35.092
He doesn't tell you why he's fighting for it.

01:05:35.092 --> 01:05:39.492
That conflict should be divulged, and everyone should take it into account.

01:05:39.492 --> 01:05:44.172
And when a man is conflicted, as Corey was saying, in the case of these discussions, he shouldn't be our participant.

01:05:44.752 --> 01:05:51.412
Not because he's bad or he's a liar, but because there are plenty of other people who can talk about those things that don't have to choose.

01:05:51.412 --> 01:06:01.472
Because if the discussion could go either way, and a man has a vested interest in it only coming out one way, then suddenly the discussion isn't about ideas anymore.

01:06:01.472 --> 01:06:11.952
It's about if we decide that this discussion is gonna break in this direction, and this man who has competing interests in the opposite direction, we're choosing against him.

01:06:11.952 --> 01:06:13.452
We're not talking about an idea anymore.

01:06:13.492 --> 01:06:15.992
We're talking about condemning the guy who's talking.

01:06:15.992 --> 01:06:19.332
The only way to have those conversations if he's not present at all.

01:06:19.332 --> 01:06:21.812
And that sounds heartless, but that's just...

01:06:21.812 --> 01:06:26.352
It's something that's a natural part of business life and other things.

01:06:26.352 --> 01:06:31.132
Sometimes someone just has to leave the room so that something can be discussed because of the conflict.

01:06:31.132 --> 01:06:41.112
Not because they're bad, not because they're gonna lie or anything, because it's not fair and reasonable for them to be a participant when you're talking about something that could go the wrong way for them.

01:06:41.872 --> 01:06:49.392
They can speak in their own defense in that context, but they don't get to persuade you without it making clear that they're on the opposite side of the question.

01:06:49.392 --> 01:06:51.092
That's what this is all about.

01:06:53.192 --> 01:06:58.432
This is again one of those things that we do recognize in our civil courts.

01:06:58.432 --> 01:07:12.672
We have exceptions to some of our rules that exclude out-of-court statements when those statements are against interest, specifically against the interest of the party making the statement.

01:07:12.672 --> 01:07:20.372
This is one of those where if you admit to a crime, for instance, out of court, that can typically be admitted.

01:07:21.632 --> 01:07:35.452
So if you have made a statement that is against your interests, there is a certain amount of weight that comes along with that that does not come along with a statement that is in your interests.

01:07:35.452 --> 01:07:37.532
And the reason for that is rather obvious.

01:07:38.232 --> 01:07:44.112
If you're making a statement that is in your interests, there's a reason for you to make that statement.

01:07:44.112 --> 01:07:53.292
If you are making a statement that is simply objectively against your interests, there are many reasons for you not to make that statement.

01:07:53.292 --> 01:08:03.012
And so the fact that you are willing to say that thing makes it more likely that you believe it is not only true, but important enough to be said.

01:08:03.012 --> 01:08:12.432
And so this is one of the heuristics, one of the general rules that you can apply when assessing these sorts of things, when making these wisdom calls.

01:08:12.432 --> 01:08:22.712
If someone makes a statement that is in his interests, well, there's an obvious reason for him to make that statement, so you have to work that into your calculation.

01:08:22.712 --> 01:08:36.492
But on the other hand, and in the opposite direction, if he makes a statement that is against his interests, there are reasons for him not to say that, to withhold that information, to remain silent, and he did not do so.

01:08:36.492 --> 01:08:52.112
When it comes to the political, which is really what we have been addressing sort of tangentially in much of this episode so far, there are a number of active discussions that are very relevant here.

01:08:52.112 --> 01:09:09.652
One in particular that comes up in a number of episodes and is going to be something that is simply ongoing in the political landscape in much of the world, particularly in the West, for the foreseeable future, is the issue of interracial marriage.

01:09:09.652 --> 01:09:14.112
And that is going to continue to come up because it is a live issue.

01:09:14.112 --> 01:09:22.232
Immigration, so-called mass migration, all of these problems lead into this particular issue.

01:09:22.232 --> 01:09:32.052
And obviously, in the US context, we have the history of slavery and the Civil War and emancipation and integration and all of these other things.

01:09:32.052 --> 01:09:47.772
The decriminalization of interracial marriage, miscegenation, which was illegal in living memory for some individuals, certainly in recent memory, recent history for basically everyone, for those who've studied history.

01:09:49.452 --> 01:09:59.192
Many of those who speak on this issue do not disclose the mistake they have in the conclusion, in the outcome.

01:09:59.192 --> 01:10:21.052
And so, for instance, if, say, the recriminalization of miscegenation of interracial marriage were on the table, and that is very much something that is legally on the table, that is only, again, very recently that that was made a non-criminal matter, not simply illegal, but a criminal matter.

01:10:24.012 --> 01:10:35.492
If a man has a wife of another race and he is discussing this issue and he does not disclose that he has that personal interest, he is doing that to deceive you.

01:10:35.492 --> 01:10:39.472
He is being manipulative, at the very least manipulative.

01:10:39.472 --> 01:10:42.612
That is something that he should disclose.

01:10:42.612 --> 01:10:47.272
The reason we used, as Wo said, the financial example, is that it's very easy to understand.

01:10:47.272 --> 01:10:48.212
It's quantifiable.

01:10:49.152 --> 01:11:05.012
If you are acting as a regulator of Apple and you hold $10 million in Apple stock, and the regulation that is before you, if you pass it, it is going to have the stock value, will you stand to lose $5 million, give or take?

01:11:06.292 --> 01:11:13.212
That's a very real, concrete, quantifiable interest that you have in the outcome.

01:11:13.212 --> 01:11:16.152
That's something we can grasp very easily and understand.

01:11:16.912 --> 01:11:21.832
We understand why that man has an incentive to act in a certain way.

01:11:23.412 --> 01:11:27.552
This isn't quantifiable in the same way, but it is just as concrete.

01:11:28.572 --> 01:11:43.552
If a man has a wife of another race, and what is being discussed is the legal status of that particular kind of union, he has a very real, a very concrete interest in the outcome.

01:11:44.952 --> 01:11:49.912
And so, by and large, he should actually be excluded from the discussion.

01:11:49.912 --> 01:12:09.512
And the reason that he should be excluded from the discussion is that he has this concrete interest, and he is going to have to choose, he has a conflict of interest, actually, because he is going to have to choose between, as it were, his wife and family on the one hand, and his nation on the other.

01:12:09.512 --> 01:12:19.132
Because the issue, ultimately, when we are speaking of interracial marriage, of miscegenation, is whether or not a given nation continues into the future.

01:12:20.312 --> 01:12:30.212
This is actually one of those cases where we can look specifically at scripture, because this is what God did, using the Assyrians, to the northern kingdom of Israel.

01:12:30.212 --> 01:12:33.732
This is how he erased the northern ten tribes.

01:12:33.732 --> 01:12:44.052
The Assyrians, what they would do when they conquered a people, is they would bring in foreigners, and they would remove at least a portion of the local population somewhere else within their empire.

01:12:44.052 --> 01:12:58.132
And then what they would do is basically encourage intermarriage, miscegenation, and via that means, they would destroy at least the one nation they had conquered, and probably another one somewhere else in the empire at the same time.

01:12:58.132 --> 01:13:08.232
This made it easier for them to rule over conquered peoples, because those peoples no longer had a specific identity as a specific nation.

01:13:08.292 --> 01:13:13.012
There was no longer any cohesion in that population.

01:13:13.012 --> 01:13:19.392
It was a divide and conquer tactic, very effective, a punishment from God.

01:13:19.392 --> 01:13:25.792
And so, going forward, this is something that is still permissible in Western nations.

01:13:25.792 --> 01:13:32.372
Those Western nations will cease to exist as those nations, as what they were historically.

01:13:32.372 --> 01:13:35.212
It is a literally existential question.

01:13:36.332 --> 01:13:50.552
And so, those who have this stake in permitting the status quo to continue or even accelerate must be excluded from the discussion because they have that specific interest.

01:13:50.552 --> 01:13:53.592
There are two reasons and two ways you can look at this.

01:13:53.592 --> 01:13:57.192
You exclude them because they have that specific interest.

01:13:57.192 --> 01:14:03.452
And so, there is the chance of them behaving in a mercenary or deceptive or even malicious fashion.

01:14:04.352 --> 01:14:30.632
But even if you don't have that particular risk, if you set that aside, if the person is engaging in good faith, and I do not deny for a second that there are those who are engaging in good faith, but even if you set that aside, if the man is a good man, he is going to have a conflict of interest because he will have a desire to see that which is best for his nation and he will have a desire to see that which is best for his family.

01:14:31.192 --> 01:14:35.592
And in his specific case, those things are in conflict.

01:14:36.772 --> 01:14:47.552
And so if he is a good man, you exclude him so as not to make him choose, so that you don't put him in the position of having to choose between his nation or his family.

01:14:47.552 --> 01:14:51.192
That is a terrible position in which to find oneself.

01:14:51.192 --> 01:14:55.112
No man wants, no good man wants to be in that position.

01:14:55.112 --> 01:15:04.072
It's one of the reasons that we argue that interracial marriage is deeply unwise, because it leads to these sorts of outcomes.

01:15:04.072 --> 01:15:11.092
It leads to situations in which a man has to choose between his wife and his children and his nation.

01:15:12.312 --> 01:15:16.512
If you're German and you marry a German, there's no conflict of interest.

01:15:16.512 --> 01:15:22.352
There's no choosing between your nation and your family, because they are essentially identical.

01:15:22.352 --> 01:15:42.052
If you are French and you marry an African, you can very well have to choose between your family, which is not actually French and not actually African, but sort of half one and sort of half the other, which forces you to choose, and more saliently forces your children to choose.

01:15:42.052 --> 01:15:46.112
Well, now you're in a position where you have to choose between your nation or your family.

01:15:47.572 --> 01:15:52.312
That is an unwise thing to do to yourself, and it is certainly an unwise thing to do to your children.

01:15:53.752 --> 01:15:55.532
And those who are of mixed race know this.

01:15:55.532 --> 01:16:00.152
It's one of the reasons that we have those of mixed race message us and ask us questions.

01:16:00.152 --> 01:16:10.732
We'll never disclose who those individuals are, of course, but we have received many of those messages, and they thank us for speaking honestly on this, because they have lived this experience.

01:16:10.732 --> 01:16:13.632
And I know some people think, oh, lived experience, it's a Marxist phrase.

01:16:13.632 --> 01:16:15.452
But as we've mentioned before, it's not.

01:16:15.452 --> 01:16:16.552
It's a real thing.

01:16:16.552 --> 01:16:18.852
Lived experience is something.

01:16:18.852 --> 01:16:25.412
If you work as a coal miner, you have a very different lived experience from someone who works in a law office.

01:16:25.412 --> 01:16:27.832
These are different things.

01:16:27.832 --> 01:16:34.692
They give you a different perspective, a different sort of concrete knowledge of the world.

01:16:34.692 --> 01:16:53.172
And those who are of mixed race know for an absolute fact that they have had to choose, or they're still in a position where they're trying to choose, and it's difficult, because when you are essentially by your nature torn in multiple directions, that is a terrible position.

01:16:53.172 --> 01:17:03.712
That is a terrible burden to put on a child, and it is a difficult choice, because you legitimately have actual interests that are in conflict.

01:17:03.712 --> 01:17:12.892
It's not that you have one mercenary interest and one legitimate interest, or you have this one that's clearly the stronger interest, and this one's the weaker.

01:17:13.452 --> 01:17:21.912
You may very well have two virtually identical, in terms of weight or importance, interests, tearing you in opposite directions.

01:17:23.432 --> 01:17:45.832
And so the men who have put themselves in that position have to be excluded from the discussion, because they cannot engage, on the one hand, in a truly objective fashion, or, and perhaps even and, on the other hand, you do not want to force them to choose in that way.

01:17:45.832 --> 01:17:52.192
This is something, again, that we see all over the place with regard to this discussion.

01:17:52.192 --> 01:18:07.412
On X in particular, many of those who decide to attack Stone Choir, attack Woe, attack me, on this issue, well, it turns out, they have wives of another race.

01:18:07.412 --> 01:18:12.192
They don't disclose that, at least not explicitly, when they're making their arguments.

01:18:12.192 --> 01:18:17.772
It happens to be something that has been incidentally disclosed at some point in their past.

01:18:17.772 --> 01:18:19.152
That is a conflict of interest.

01:18:19.152 --> 01:18:22.492
That is something that absolutely should be disclosed.

01:18:22.492 --> 01:18:31.592
And those men should not be engaging in the discussion for the reasons we have laid out, for the reasons that I just laid out at some length.

01:18:31.592 --> 01:18:32.812
This is an important matter.

01:18:32.812 --> 01:18:35.992
This is something that has to be discussed.

01:18:35.992 --> 01:18:38.092
Now, you can come down on one side or the other.

01:18:38.192 --> 01:18:44.452
You can mount whatever argument you want, construct it from scripture, construct it from reason, whatever it happens to be.

01:18:44.452 --> 01:18:46.432
We've done that elsewhere in other episodes.

01:18:46.432 --> 01:18:48.572
We've done it in many places online.

01:18:48.572 --> 01:18:50.972
We've done it in other discussions.

01:18:50.972 --> 01:19:02.412
Leaving that aspect of this aside, regardless of where you come down on the issue, it is undeniably an important matter.

01:19:02.412 --> 01:19:05.472
It is something where it is certainly a matter of wisdom.

01:19:06.432 --> 01:19:20.912
It is something where there is, I would advance at least, an objectively correct answer, both scripturally and in all of these other ways, biologically, rationally, culturally, whatever else you want to use.

01:19:22.552 --> 01:19:38.592
And so being such an important issue, we need to have a proper discussion, a proper debate, a proper addressing of the matter that necessarily excludes those who have this conflict of interest.

01:19:39.892 --> 01:19:47.512
It's not that we're denying them a seat at the table or saying that these voices don't matter.

01:19:47.512 --> 01:19:56.032
We're doing it for the reasons that I have laid out, for the reasons we've laid out in this episode, and also elsewhere.

01:19:56.032 --> 01:19:59.692
Not all men get to speak on all topics.

01:20:00.812 --> 01:20:03.992
That is simply the reality of life.

01:20:03.992 --> 01:20:07.692
God has handed out gifts unequally, and certainly that plays into it.

01:20:07.692 --> 01:20:15.552
But as Woe was saying with regard to marriage and related matters, there are some topics where it is inappropriate for a man to speak.

01:20:15.552 --> 01:20:21.312
It's not even because a man doesn't necessarily have something to say on the topic.

01:20:21.312 --> 01:20:23.632
He may have some very good things to say on the topic.

01:20:23.632 --> 01:20:33.392
He may know the topic really well, but there is some compelling reason for him not to speak, to exclude him from speaking.

01:20:34.732 --> 01:20:46.412
A trivial example of this, to make it perhaps more concrete, if you own a jeep, you don't get to join the VW club.

01:20:46.412 --> 01:20:48.012
We all recognize that.

01:20:48.012 --> 01:20:49.012
Straightforward.

01:20:49.012 --> 01:20:51.772
If you sell your VW, you get kicked out of the VW club.

01:20:53.792 --> 01:20:57.872
There's a requirement to be in that club.

01:20:57.872 --> 01:21:04.792
If you don't meet the requirement, you are excluded by virtue of not meeting that requirement.

01:21:04.792 --> 01:21:12.252
The same thing is true with regard to certain topics of discussion, with regard to certain debates.

01:21:12.252 --> 01:21:24.052
And so I'm not going to say that Woe and I don't have accurate and useful things to say about some of the concrete day-to-day realities of living a married life.

01:21:24.052 --> 01:21:31.712
But by and large, we are not going to inject ourselves into that discussion, because neither one of us is married.

01:21:31.712 --> 01:21:39.592
And so there's a certain level of not necessarily but seemingly inappropriateness to doing that.

01:21:39.592 --> 01:21:48.112
There are certain subjects that are more appropriately addressed by those who have that concrete life experience with the thing.

01:21:49.272 --> 01:21:58.792
And again, as Woe was saying, with regard to the topic of drug use, this is one of the topics that comes up all the time in this area, the other being promiscuity, of course.

01:21:58.792 --> 01:22:05.372
There are those who use drugs, who constantly try to drag others into that life.

01:22:05.372 --> 01:22:09.632
And so they have this mercenary interest in normalizing their behavior.

01:22:09.632 --> 01:22:15.652
And obviously the same is very true with regard to promiscuity, particularly with regard to women.

01:22:15.652 --> 01:22:24.352
Women who have made terrible life choices will often try to drag other women down, to make themselves feel better, to make themselves feel more normal.

01:22:24.352 --> 01:22:29.172
Because if every woman is a harlot, then no woman is a harlot, effectively.

01:22:30.612 --> 01:22:47.512
But with regard to drug use, there is something more compelling, specifically with regard to the statement against interest, when someone who has made these poor life choices tells you, don't do this, don't be like me.

01:22:48.952 --> 01:23:02.412
When someone tells you don't be like me, and it is something that is very clearly negative, for instance, losing an eye due to drug use, that is a compelling argument, and it is right to give that additional weight to that.

01:23:02.412 --> 01:23:10.352
But it is not to say, for instance, that Woe and I couldn't contribute something on the discussion of drug use.

01:23:10.352 --> 01:23:12.432
But it is different.

01:23:12.432 --> 01:23:15.912
Neither one of us has used drugs in the past.

01:23:15.912 --> 01:23:17.412
Neither one of us use any drugs.

01:23:18.612 --> 01:23:21.552
Neither one of us uses any drugs.

01:23:21.552 --> 01:23:23.312
We both drink alcohol.

01:23:23.312 --> 01:23:24.712
That's the extent of it.

01:23:24.712 --> 01:23:26.212
Scripture says that's fine, of course.

01:23:26.212 --> 01:23:27.332
Scripture, in fact, commands it.

01:23:27.332 --> 01:23:29.512
We've gone over that in other episodes.

01:23:29.512 --> 01:23:32.312
I have smoked a handful of cigarettes in my life.

01:23:32.312 --> 01:23:33.552
Woe is not.

01:23:33.552 --> 01:23:46.692
And so either of us speaking on the topic of drug use is not going to be able to say, don't be like me, because if we said, don't be like me, that would be telling you to use drugs, and that would be an insane argument.

01:23:49.192 --> 01:23:52.892
We can bring up the research.

01:23:52.892 --> 01:24:01.592
We can bring up second hand accounts, because both of us have friends who have used drugs, and some have had very bad experiences with them.

01:24:03.192 --> 01:24:14.552
But there is a difference, again, because there is something compelling about a man speaking from personal experience and telling you, do not do the things that I have done.

01:24:14.552 --> 01:24:15.592
They are bad.

01:24:15.592 --> 01:24:16.532
They will harm you.

01:24:17.752 --> 01:24:27.292
It doesn't mean that you need someone who has done the bad things in order to have the argument, because of course, we can show you the research on why you should not do hallucinogens.

01:24:27.292 --> 01:24:33.632
We can mount the scriptural argument, the Christian argument, for why you should not do hallucinogens.

01:24:33.632 --> 01:24:40.892
We could show you very, very clear medical studies for why you should not do certain hard drugs, because they will literally kill you.

01:24:40.892 --> 01:24:42.652
They destroy your body.

01:24:44.372 --> 01:24:45.672
And those arguments are compelling.

01:24:46.992 --> 01:24:51.892
And we don't really have a conflict of interest there.

01:24:51.892 --> 01:24:56.472
There's the minor conflict of interest that we're saying, you know, be like me.

01:24:56.472 --> 01:24:59.012
But it's not really the argument we're advancing.

01:24:59.012 --> 01:25:05.252
When I tell you, don't do drugs, because you shouldn't, obviously, they're bad for you.

01:25:05.252 --> 01:25:10.712
I'm not telling you don't do drugs because I want to look normal, because I haven't done drugs, and so I don't want anything else to do them.

01:25:10.712 --> 01:25:12.972
I'm saying don't do them because they're harmful to you.

01:25:13.012 --> 01:25:16.932
And here are the data showing that that is the case.

01:25:18.072 --> 01:25:28.472
But on the other hand, the other side of that coin, as it were, the habitual drug user who tells you, oh, drug use is fine, you should do drugs.

01:25:28.472 --> 01:25:33.192
He has a conflict of interest because he is trying to drag you into that lifestyle.

01:25:33.192 --> 01:25:34.972
And so you should assess that.

01:25:34.972 --> 01:25:47.472
That factors into how you weigh his testimony, how you weigh his argument, whether or not you find him to be a credible witness to speak in the legal terms.

01:25:48.572 --> 01:25:51.592
Because he has this very clear interest in the outcome.

01:25:52.832 --> 01:26:02.372
For those who are telling you, don't do hard drugs, there's less of an interest in the outcome because by and large, most people don't do hard drugs.

01:26:02.372 --> 01:26:12.392
And so when someone is advancing that argument, there's no real large scale grander benefit if you do or don't do drugs.

01:26:12.392 --> 01:26:19.512
Because it remains the norm in society, regardless of what a handful of individuals may or may not do.

01:26:21.432 --> 01:26:30.632
But on the other hand, again, with regard to the drug user, the more people who do those drugs, the more likely that becomes totally normal in society.

01:26:30.632 --> 01:26:32.912
For instance, with marijuana.

01:26:32.912 --> 01:26:36.312
Probably one of the best examples we could give.

01:26:36.312 --> 01:26:46.512
Marijuana use used to be not only extremely fringe, but very, very negatively perceived in society.

01:26:46.512 --> 01:26:52.572
It was something done by the fringes of society, by degenerate criminals.

01:26:52.572 --> 01:26:56.052
One could advance the argument that is still the case.

01:26:56.052 --> 01:27:11.832
But it's not always these days, because it has become by and large normalized among large segments of the population, because those who have used the drug has successfully championed the argument, no, no, no, this is totally normal, it's a fine thing.

01:27:11.832 --> 01:27:23.652
Perhaps that should have been taken with a bit larger grain of salt, that these individuals advancing this argument, well, perhaps they have some mercenary interest.

01:27:24.952 --> 01:27:32.332
They have some reason for making the argument they are making, for advancing the things they are advancing.

01:27:32.332 --> 01:27:40.292
They have a conflict of interests, and perhaps what they are saying should be discounted, at the very least, and potentially simply ignored.

01:27:42.252 --> 01:27:52.632
I won't go into the depths of it, as it were, but this is obviously directly analogous to what has happened with promiscuity in our society since about the 60s.

01:27:54.472 --> 01:28:11.612
I do want to give you another tool when assessing these matters, because there is a specific subset of questions that are different in, really in kind, but sort of in degree as well.

01:28:11.612 --> 01:28:14.912
It really is difference in kind, is what we're getting at here.

01:28:16.412 --> 01:28:25.432
When dealing with specifically Christian issues, and I mean core Christian doctrines on this, I don't mean the color of candles or whatever.

01:28:25.432 --> 01:28:28.532
I don't care if you use purple, blue candles, pink.

01:28:29.092 --> 01:28:33.852
Someone will be mad at me because of that, but that stuff ultimately doesn't matter that much.

01:28:33.852 --> 01:28:35.012
It's important for good order.

01:28:35.012 --> 01:28:38.312
It's not essential to salvation.

01:28:38.312 --> 01:28:41.332
You're not going to hell because you use the wrong candle color.

01:28:44.012 --> 01:28:51.852
But when you are assessing someone's argument, there is a difference between eternal truth and temporal goods.

01:28:53.792 --> 01:29:01.432
Someone who has an interest in temporal goods is really the subject we are discussing in this episode.

01:29:02.852 --> 01:29:14.272
Because if you have a financial stake in the outcome or you have an interest with regard to your choice of wife and therefore your children, these are temporal.

01:29:14.272 --> 01:29:19.132
Obviously also, there's an eternal aspect there when you're dealing with human souls.

01:29:19.132 --> 01:29:22.172
But we're talking about temporal goods for most of these issues.

01:29:23.672 --> 01:29:27.832
There is a difference when you are speaking about eternal truth.

01:29:27.832 --> 01:29:46.752
And so, for instance, if you have that conflict of interest with regard to your wife and your children, your financial position, your after work activities, whatever it happens to be, that is something that should be factored in and weighed against your arguments.

01:29:46.752 --> 01:29:49.712
Because you have that interest in the outcome.

01:29:49.772 --> 01:29:53.832
You have that interest, that bias in favor of the things that you are arguing.

01:29:53.832 --> 01:29:59.812
Again, it doesn't mean that you are necessarily a liar or that you are misleading.

01:29:59.812 --> 01:30:10.772
It simply means that it factors into the equation in weighing the weight, in figuring out how much weight should be assigned to your argument, to you as a witness.

01:30:10.772 --> 01:30:15.432
This is not directly equivalent to matters dealing with eternal truth.

01:30:17.812 --> 01:30:21.372
This comes with a caveat, because it has to.

01:30:21.372 --> 01:30:30.852
There are those who argue for certain positions with regard to religion, specifically Christianity, obviously, because this is a Christian podcast.

01:30:31.872 --> 01:30:42.292
But there are those who argue for their positions simply due to a mercenary belief, a mercenary adherence to their own team.

01:30:43.732 --> 01:30:50.192
And so, I'll decline to give any specific denomination or tradition as the example for this one.

01:30:50.192 --> 01:31:15.932
But if you believe X with regard to the Christian religion, and you believe that X is a core doctrine in the Christian religion, but you believe that because it is what your tradition says, and the only reason for which you are arguing for X is because it is part of your tradition, so you're just arguing for team colors, is what I'm saying, essentially.

01:31:15.932 --> 01:31:20.812
This is one of those few places where a sports metaphor is actually important and actually works.

01:31:20.812 --> 01:31:26.792
If you're arguing for your team because it's your team, and not because it's true, that is not what I am saying here.

01:31:26.792 --> 01:31:27.632
That is a different thing.

01:31:27.632 --> 01:31:29.572
That is a mercenary approach.

01:31:29.572 --> 01:31:37.632
That person should still be assessed according to what we're saying in the rest of this episode, according to wisdom, according to the bias, the conflict of interests.

01:31:39.192 --> 01:31:55.312
But someone who is arguing for eternal truth, truth for the sake of truth, not because, and here I'll give an example, not because we're Lutheran, for instance, we do not argue that baptism saves you.

01:31:55.312 --> 01:32:01.992
We do not argue for the real presence of Christ in the sacrament because we're Lutheran.

01:32:03.332 --> 01:32:10.892
If we argued those things because we are Lutheran, that would be biased, that would be a conflict.

01:32:10.892 --> 01:32:20.652
You should assess that the same way as you would anything else we've discussed in this episode and so many things that we will not discuss in this episode because there are so many examples.

01:32:20.652 --> 01:32:28.872
But if we are doing it because we firmly believe that it is eternal truth, that is a different thing.

01:32:28.872 --> 01:32:39.992
I don't stand really in any concrete sense, as it were, to gain or lose anything with regard to you believing what I say about the sacraments.

01:32:41.112 --> 01:32:50.592
Now, yes, there's the consideration of being a truthful teacher, there's the consideration of the stricter judgment, all these various things, but those considerations aren't a conflict.

01:32:50.592 --> 01:32:53.012
There's no bias there.

01:32:53.012 --> 01:33:01.232
Being true to God and his things is different in kind from a financial interest or something similar like that.

01:33:01.372 --> 01:33:05.252
Some, again, temporal good.

01:33:05.252 --> 01:33:06.752
And so this is another aspect.

01:33:06.752 --> 01:33:10.572
With regard to these Christian arguments, we have to take this into account.

01:33:10.572 --> 01:33:17.112
If someone is making the mercenary argument, oh, well, I have a red flag, and so I'm arguing for the red team.

01:33:17.112 --> 01:33:21.932
That's the same sort of thing as I have a financial stake in Apple, so I'm arguing for Apple.

01:33:21.932 --> 01:33:23.992
I'm arguing against regulating them.

01:33:23.992 --> 01:33:32.032
I have a wife who is of another race, and so I'm arguing that we can't possibly make miscegenation illegal again, whatever it happens to be.

01:33:32.032 --> 01:33:37.612
But if I'm arguing, baptism now saves you, because it's what scripture says.

01:33:37.612 --> 01:33:39.932
It's what I firmly believe.

01:33:39.932 --> 01:33:41.992
That is not a mercenary argument.

01:33:41.992 --> 01:33:42.892
That is not bias.

01:33:42.892 --> 01:33:45.292
That is not conflict.

01:33:45.292 --> 01:33:47.292
That is a fundamentally different thing.

01:33:47.292 --> 01:33:49.452
That is different in kind.

01:33:49.452 --> 01:33:55.972
And so it's just important to keep that in mind, because when we're talking about political issues, that's not really on the table.

01:33:57.352 --> 01:34:02.132
When we're talking about religious issues, that could very well be on the table.

01:34:02.132 --> 01:34:22.452
And so you have to discern, this is again a question of wisdom, you have to discern if that person is making the mercenary argument for his team, or the truly sincere argument for a belief about the central truths of the Christian faith, about the core beliefs of our religion.

01:34:22.452 --> 01:34:24.072
Because those are two very different things.

01:34:25.032 --> 01:34:36.952
And you should treat the arguments of the men making those sorts of arguments, of the men taking those sorts of approaches, you should treat them differently, because they are not identical.

01:34:36.952 --> 01:34:44.432
The mercenary argument and the true argument, the convinced argument, are fundamentally different things.

01:34:44.432 --> 01:34:51.652
And it is only that mercenary argument that would be subject to the sort of analysis that we are making in this episode.

01:34:52.412 --> 01:34:57.032
Now, of course, that comes again with a caveat, because this is a matter of wisdom.

01:34:57.032 --> 01:34:58.152
There's going to be nuance.

01:34:58.152 --> 01:35:00.812
There's going to be assessments you have to do.

01:35:00.812 --> 01:35:04.632
We can't give you black and white rules, as we have already said.

01:35:06.752 --> 01:35:15.832
The man who makes what he believes to be a firmly convinced argument may in fact be deluding himself.

01:35:17.672 --> 01:35:18.892
You have to make that assessment.

01:35:19.852 --> 01:35:22.872
That is the case across the board here.

01:35:22.872 --> 01:35:36.512
There are men who are making arguments that they believe, firmly believe to be the truth, but they have deluded themselves because of their personal stake, because of their bias, because of their interest in the outcome.

01:35:37.652 --> 01:35:44.332
And so you have to assess whether or not that is the case with regard to a given man on a given subject.

01:35:44.332 --> 01:35:49.692
There's no getting away from this fundamental fact that these are questions of wisdom.

01:35:49.692 --> 01:35:55.672
You are going to have to apply the gifts that God has given you in order to make these calls.

01:35:55.672 --> 01:35:59.572
We are laying out the framework for how to approach these things.

01:35:59.572 --> 01:36:07.112
We are laying out the framework for how you determine if certain men are given a seat at the table or not.

01:36:07.112 --> 01:36:11.832
And then, for those men at the table, how you assess the things they say.

01:36:13.532 --> 01:36:22.252
But ultimately, this is something each man has to do for himself with regard to the issues on which he has to make these calls.

01:36:22.252 --> 01:36:24.732
We can't make these decisions for you.

01:36:24.732 --> 01:36:28.592
We can't even decide for you how much you trust us.

01:36:28.592 --> 01:36:30.292
You have to decide that.

01:36:30.292 --> 01:36:34.632
It's one of the reasons that we constantly tell you to assess the things we've said.

01:36:35.692 --> 01:36:37.152
Look at what we've done.

01:36:37.152 --> 01:36:38.592
Look at what we've said.

01:36:38.592 --> 01:36:43.632
Look at Scripture when Scripture is relevant to these things, which is very often the case, of course.

01:36:45.332 --> 01:36:47.372
You have to make these decisions yourself.

01:36:47.372 --> 01:36:51.512
We cannot make them for you, and neither can anyone else.

01:36:51.512 --> 01:36:56.252
Now, of course, there's a difference for our female listeners because, of course, you have a head.

01:36:56.252 --> 01:37:00.692
He gets to make many of these decisions, and it is incumbent on you to follow him.

01:37:00.692 --> 01:37:04.592
As Scripture says, submit to your husband in all things, as to the Lord.

01:37:04.592 --> 01:37:05.492
So there's a difference there.

01:37:05.492 --> 01:37:10.352
But when I am speaking to the men specifically, you really don't have an out.

01:37:11.692 --> 01:37:15.372
Yes, you can follow the leaders who have been put over you.

01:37:15.372 --> 01:37:20.112
Yes, you can trust the men that God has put in offices of rightful authority.

01:37:21.472 --> 01:37:28.272
But that does not absolve you of the necessity of making these sorts of wisdom calls, at least not totally.

01:37:29.692 --> 01:37:32.912
This is part of the reality of this life.

01:37:32.912 --> 01:37:35.672
You have to make wisdom calls.

01:37:35.672 --> 01:37:37.212
You have to make assessments.

01:37:38.492 --> 01:37:54.712
The point of this episode is to help equip you with the tools you need to assess the testimony of other men, to assess their arguments, to assess the things they say, because it's not just a matter of the concrete argument itself.

01:37:54.712 --> 01:37:58.532
Yes, that should often be paramount.

01:37:58.532 --> 01:38:04.412
In fact, that should probably typically, in the overwhelming majority of cases, be paramount.

01:38:04.412 --> 01:38:06.472
You assess the argument the man is making.

01:38:09.112 --> 01:38:12.632
But you also have to assess the man making the argument.

01:38:12.632 --> 01:38:29.232
It's the genealogy of ideas, because it's very often the genealogy of ideas, because the man making the argument is probably making it in a certain way because of his background, because of his interests, because of things that are pertinent to him.

01:38:29.232 --> 01:38:36.032
It may even be subconscious, because who and what you are is not entirely a matter of your conscious decisions.

01:38:36.632 --> 01:38:38.272
We all know that.

01:38:38.272 --> 01:38:42.272
You are going to use certain words, you're going to use certain constructions.

01:38:42.272 --> 01:38:43.512
Some of us have accents.

01:38:43.512 --> 01:38:49.292
There are certain things that are part of you that you cannot avoid.

01:38:49.292 --> 01:38:52.592
The same thing is true with every other man.

01:38:52.592 --> 01:39:03.732
And so even if he is making what he firmly believes to be an objective argument, look at the words he's using, look at the way he's constructing it, look at the presuppositions that went into it.

01:39:04.672 --> 01:39:14.912
You have to make that wisdom call on how you assess the argument, and in part, that is based on how you assess the man advancing the argument.

01:39:14.912 --> 01:39:20.052
These things are not unrelated, they're not distinct, they're not disconnected.

01:39:21.392 --> 01:39:27.652
Human beings are not robots, and arguments are not conjured out of thin air.

01:39:27.652 --> 01:39:42.272
They're constructed and presented by men, and those men have interests, they have biases, they have things in their lives that have led them to those conclusions, that have led them to formulate the arguments and the conclusions in the way that they have.

01:39:42.272 --> 01:39:49.432
And you as an audience, whether it's here or elsewhere, have to make those assessments for yourself.

01:39:51.612 --> 01:40:01.792
I want to present one last example of conflicted interest, because it's one that just came up recently on X, where a bunch of people got really mad at me for something that I said.

01:40:02.532 --> 01:40:14.492
And I want to lay out how this is such a clear example of the problems that arise when often people don't even understand their own biases.

01:40:14.492 --> 01:40:30.972
And if you don't understand that you're missing something, if you think that everything about you is just hunky dory, and you have everything figured out, but you actually have a glaring hole or omission in your knowledge or experience, you're going to make mistakes in the way you convey things.

01:40:31.932 --> 01:40:36.072
These are a natural consequence of what you don't even know you don't have.

01:40:36.072 --> 01:40:38.172
It's the unknown unknown.

01:40:38.172 --> 01:40:41.872
So Jared Taylor recently got back on X.

01:40:41.872 --> 01:40:43.772
He was banned for years.

01:40:43.772 --> 01:40:49.232
He has long been an advocate for whites as a race.

01:40:49.232 --> 01:40:51.612
He was born in Japan in 1951.

01:40:51.612 --> 01:40:56.212
His parents were Christian missionaries there, and he lived there until he was 16 years old.

01:40:56.212 --> 01:40:58.112
So he was raised entirely in Japan.

01:40:58.472 --> 01:41:02.812
And his family goes back as long as mine, over 400 years ago.

01:41:02.812 --> 01:41:04.552
He's a founding stock American.

01:41:04.552 --> 01:41:06.252
He's an American.

01:41:06.252 --> 01:41:12.792
The point that I made online was a response to something that he said as soon as he got back on X.

01:41:12.792 --> 01:41:16.432
He did a video interview with a guy named Richard Hania or something.

01:41:16.432 --> 01:41:20.052
He's just a vile, repulsive, wicked man.

01:41:20.052 --> 01:41:24.532
One of the nastiest people on the internet, a true enemy of all of us.

01:41:24.532 --> 01:41:26.572
But no matter what you think of Stone Choir, he hates you.

01:41:27.152 --> 01:41:32.872
He is openly an enemy of everything that anyone remotely on our side would like.

01:41:32.872 --> 01:41:34.872
Jared went on to talk to him about race and whatever.

01:41:34.872 --> 01:41:36.192
I didn't listen to the whole thing.

01:41:36.192 --> 01:41:48.172
I listened to the clip that came out of that, where they were both laughing and saying derisive things about West Virginia.

01:41:48.172 --> 01:41:55.232
And Jared Taylor made a comment about West Virginia people, obesity and tattoos and the stereotypical look.

01:41:55.352 --> 01:42:00.652
And he said that they're not the elite human capital that we're talking about.

01:42:00.652 --> 01:42:13.432
And he went on to explain that despite Richard, the other guys, despising of people in West Virginia, Jared's overall point was that, well, they're still part of America.

01:42:13.432 --> 01:42:18.172
They're kind of the lowest tier and they have all these problems, but I love them and I want to help them.

01:42:18.232 --> 01:42:19.812
It wasn't a bad sentiment.

01:42:19.812 --> 01:42:25.412
And he also wasn't wrong about the problems that people in West Virginia have.

01:42:25.412 --> 01:42:32.152
The problem that I had with what he said was born of his own biography.

01:42:32.152 --> 01:42:33.852
He didn't grow up in the US.

01:42:33.852 --> 01:42:36.272
He didn't have an American upbringing.

01:42:36.272 --> 01:42:47.472
He was brought up by Americans in Japan, eating Japanese food, speaking the Japanese language, living a Japanese lifestyle until he was basically an adult.

01:42:47.472 --> 01:42:49.152
That doesn't mean that he's not an American.

01:42:49.152 --> 01:42:50.352
He has American roots.

01:42:50.892 --> 01:42:57.472
But it does mean he's less American than me in a very fundamental way, and less American than probably any of you.

01:42:57.472 --> 01:42:59.132
And this is what made people lose their minds.

01:42:59.132 --> 01:43:03.072
I would dare say that because he's such a profound advocate for white issues.

01:43:03.072 --> 01:43:04.412
Here's what I mean.

01:43:04.412 --> 01:43:07.532
I've said before that I am also the product of a mixed marriage.

01:43:07.532 --> 01:43:11.652
My dad is a Yankee going back over 400 years in the North.

01:43:11.652 --> 01:43:16.692
My mom is a Tar Heel going back over 400 years in the South.

01:43:16.692 --> 01:43:26.252
Both of them are almost all of their families, except for my dad's paternal great-grandfather, who came over from Germany in 1870.

01:43:26.252 --> 01:43:34.472
Everybody else was here before 1776, and three-quarters of my ancestors were here by 1650, in both the North and the South.

01:43:34.472 --> 01:43:35.972
They met in northeast Ohio.

01:43:35.972 --> 01:43:36.772
They got married.

01:43:36.772 --> 01:43:39.192
She moved up there from North Carolina.

01:43:39.192 --> 01:43:44.952
She was raised in Ashe County, which is one of the places that was recently obliterated by that hurricane.

01:43:44.952 --> 01:43:45.432
I've been there.

01:43:45.432 --> 01:43:47.172
I visited my grandfather's grave there.

01:43:47.552 --> 01:43:50.972
Up on a mountaintop, there's a little family cemetery.

01:43:50.972 --> 01:43:54.912
My roots go back over 300 years in Ashe County.

01:43:54.912 --> 01:43:56.692
And yet, I was raised in the North.

01:43:56.692 --> 01:44:00.292
I am functionally a Yankee, but I'm 50-50.

01:44:00.292 --> 01:44:04.912
Biologically, historically, I'm half and half.

01:44:04.912 --> 01:44:06.672
I was raised as a Northerner.

01:44:06.672 --> 01:44:07.692
I am a Northerner.

01:44:07.692 --> 01:44:09.032
There's no doubt about that.

01:44:09.032 --> 01:44:16.172
My mentality, my speech patterns, my experiences are all fundamentally from the North.

01:44:17.532 --> 01:44:31.112
If I were to go to Ash County, North Carolina, if I were to move there, move to some of the exact same places that my family, my kin, lived for over three centuries in that exact place, I would still be a foreigner there.

01:44:31.112 --> 01:44:39.252
I would still be an alien, because I was not raised there, because both blood and soil count together.

01:44:39.252 --> 01:44:42.972
It is not in opposition to each other, but both are necessary.

01:44:42.972 --> 01:44:52.932
And so what this has to do with conflict of interests is that I am necessarily conflicted as half Yankee and half Confederate, half Southern.

01:44:52.932 --> 01:45:03.092
Anytime there's an argument between those two sides, I find it disgusting that people are still re-litigating the war between the states over 100, however many years ago.

01:45:03.092 --> 01:45:04.972
It's absurd.

01:45:04.972 --> 01:45:07.192
Yes, it was despicable, it was evil.

01:45:07.192 --> 01:45:11.632
I could go on for hours about how much I hate what the North did in that circumstance.

01:45:11.632 --> 01:45:13.592
It was repugnant.

01:45:13.592 --> 01:45:19.212
I could convince people who already think they hate the North to hate the North even more after I got done with you.

01:45:19.212 --> 01:45:39.452
And yet, when someone starts screaming about Yankees being terrible people and the real problem with the world, or someone says what Jared Taylor said, where he was dismissive and derisive and said some nasty things about people in West Virginia, sneering with Richard Hania, who hates those people.

01:45:39.452 --> 01:45:42.392
And he was laughing and shucking and jiving along with him.

01:45:42.392 --> 01:45:44.192
It was a chummy moment for them together.

01:45:44.912 --> 01:45:59.092
The sin that Jared Taylor committed in that is what was mentioned in The Godfather, when Michael Corleone said, Fredo, you're my older brother and I love you, but don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again, ever.

01:45:59.092 --> 01:46:00.052
That's what Jared did.

01:46:00.052 --> 01:46:02.132
He took sides against the family.

01:46:02.132 --> 01:46:06.832
It wasn't that the people in West Virginia don't have serious problems, but you know what?

01:46:06.832 --> 01:46:11.212
They're the same problems that poor Americans have in every part of the country.

01:46:11.212 --> 01:46:20.092
Every time I go grocery shopping, if I go at the wrong time a day, I see people that are just destitute as human beings.

01:46:20.092 --> 01:46:21.572
I don't simply mean poverty.

01:46:21.572 --> 01:46:24.732
I mean, they're exactly the best, lovingly.

01:46:24.732 --> 01:46:33.832
People have clearly just not only given up hope on having what I would consider a dignified life, but they have no concept of it.

01:46:33.832 --> 01:46:35.232
And this is in New England.

01:46:35.272 --> 01:46:44.472
This is like the Yankees place imaginable, exactly the same type of people that Jared Taylor was despising in West Virginia.

01:46:44.472 --> 01:46:47.352
And I feel the same way that he does about that.

01:46:47.352 --> 01:46:49.272
I want the best for those people.

01:46:49.272 --> 01:46:51.252
I want them to have better lives.

01:46:51.252 --> 01:46:55.772
And it makes me sad and miserable when I see that, that it seems hopeless.

01:46:55.772 --> 01:46:57.992
I don't know what I can do to help.

01:46:57.992 --> 01:47:11.592
The difference between me seeing that and being disgusted by it, and Jared Taylor seeing it and being disgusted by it, is that he got online and he talked about it outside of the family with someone who hates us.

01:47:11.592 --> 01:47:14.152
Richard Hania hates those people.

01:47:14.152 --> 01:47:22.892
And for Jared to side with him and to say, yeah, they're disgusting, but I still love them, that is only something that would have happened because he was raised overseas.

01:47:22.892 --> 01:47:27.812
He has no notion of the fact that that is an impermissible thing to do in this country.

01:47:27.812 --> 01:47:38.532
And for anyone to do it in either direction, north or south, there's a conflict of interest that occurs, in his case, by omission, by having no American upbringing.

01:47:38.532 --> 01:47:46.792
He is fundamentally less American because he was raised in Japan, just as I am fundamentally less southern because I was raised in the north.

01:47:46.792 --> 01:47:49.832
I can't show up in Ash County and say, hi, I'm a hillbilly.

01:47:49.832 --> 01:47:51.192
I'm a tar heel, just like all you.

01:47:51.192 --> 01:47:52.532
I'm here for the hootenanny.

01:47:52.532 --> 01:47:53.632
Like, it would be obscene.

01:47:53.632 --> 01:47:55.012
It would be offensive.

01:47:55.032 --> 01:47:57.692
If we even say that, I'm sure it's tick some people off.

01:47:57.692 --> 01:47:59.452
I don't even know how to parody that.

01:47:59.452 --> 01:48:11.872
And it's insulting for me to try because despite the fact that those are my roots and those are my people going back, and I do have profound affection for them, I am not of them in the same way as someone who lived there.

01:48:11.872 --> 01:48:13.512
I can't say that I'm a tar heel.

01:48:13.512 --> 01:48:21.412
I can't say I'm a southerner, despite that being half of my heritage, by blood, by history, because I was not raised there.

01:48:22.772 --> 01:48:25.312
The soil might be in my blood, and it certainly is.

01:48:25.312 --> 01:48:29.952
The place where I live now looks exactly like where my mom grew up, except that it snows a lot.

01:48:29.952 --> 01:48:31.012
That's the only difference.

01:48:31.012 --> 01:48:33.752
And I'm not suited for North Carolina weather.

01:48:33.752 --> 01:48:37.992
I am very much a northern latitude kind of man.

01:48:37.992 --> 01:48:45.732
I would never say those things that he said in public, even if I think them, because it's detrimental to the family.

01:48:45.732 --> 01:48:47.632
It's going against the family.

01:48:47.632 --> 01:48:58.072
For me as an American, to despise someone in West Virginia, or my neighbor here in New England, to despise them because of whatever is wrong with the course of their lives.

01:48:58.072 --> 01:49:01.672
When I see that at the grocery store, I don't come home and tweet about it.

01:49:01.672 --> 01:49:06.212
I don't come home and say, you wouldn't believe the disgusting people I saw at the store today.

01:49:06.212 --> 01:49:07.552
I don't think that.

01:49:07.552 --> 01:49:10.632
I think it's disgusting, but it's a sense of pity.

01:49:10.632 --> 01:49:16.352
But I'm not going to use it as an example to score points with people who hate those people, because I don't hate them.

01:49:16.352 --> 01:49:18.352
And I know that Jared doesn't fundamentally either.

01:49:18.912 --> 01:49:25.412
But what he's missing out on is the social rule that you don't do that.

01:49:25.412 --> 01:49:30.032
If I were to go to Japan, I'd be breaking rules left and right without having any idea.

01:49:30.032 --> 01:49:31.512
I don't know the culture.

01:49:31.512 --> 01:49:33.912
I don't know the rules.

01:49:33.912 --> 01:49:37.472
He would be able to do all sorts of things correctly that I would do incorrectly.

01:49:37.472 --> 01:49:41.772
I would be a disgusting gaijin by doing a bunch of stuff that are just wildly inappropriate.

01:49:41.772 --> 01:49:42.892
I have no idea.

01:49:42.892 --> 01:49:44.132
I know I'm doing thing wrong.

01:49:45.212 --> 01:49:51.312
It's ignorance by lacking the experience, the lived experience that Corey talked about earlier.

01:49:51.612 --> 01:49:52.492
It comes up occasionally.

01:49:52.492 --> 01:49:54.032
It's a real thing.

01:49:54.032 --> 01:49:55.612
I have the lived experience of a Yankee.

01:49:55.612 --> 01:49:57.952
I can't pretend to be a Southerner.

01:49:57.952 --> 01:50:00.292
That doesn't mean the Southerners aren't American.

01:50:00.292 --> 01:50:08.972
And so I personally am a living conflict of interest when it comes to North versus South fights, because they're all my people.

01:50:08.972 --> 01:50:13.992
I'm the perfect doppelganger of the globalist plan for the United States.

01:50:14.592 --> 01:50:19.932
I am a perfect synthesis of two founding stock families, one from the North and one from the South.

01:50:19.932 --> 01:50:21.832
And so I don't want to see anybody fight.

01:50:21.832 --> 01:50:25.032
And so that's completely a biased matter for me.

01:50:25.032 --> 01:50:33.792
It's a complete conflict of interest for me to yell on one hand at people in the South and say, cut it out, quit abusing Yankees, and calling them Yankees, it's bizarre.

01:50:33.792 --> 01:50:36.532
There's not a single person in the North who thinks Yankee.

01:50:36.532 --> 01:50:38.752
It's such a tell that someone uses that word.

01:50:38.752 --> 01:50:40.132
It's always a slur.

01:50:40.132 --> 01:50:41.452
It's never something that's proud.

01:50:42.352 --> 01:50:48.672
And I feel exactly the same way when Northerners abuse Southerners, saying things like Jared said to Richard.

01:50:48.672 --> 01:50:53.372
Even though most of what he said was true, it wasn't the question of whether it was true or false.

01:50:53.372 --> 01:50:55.772
It was a matter of going against the family.

01:50:55.772 --> 01:50:57.812
And he doesn't see them as family.

01:50:57.812 --> 01:51:11.052
I think one of the reasons that Jared has had such a profound positive effect on much of the discourse is that his unique upbringing in Japan, where he was completely alienated, like other than his parents, I would imagine he saw virtually no white people ever.

01:51:11.872 --> 01:51:18.812
And so, he has a particular appreciation for American culture that we're deprived of because we're the fish in the water.

01:51:18.812 --> 01:51:21.472
We don't know what water is because we just have it.

01:51:21.472 --> 01:51:30.972
He has lived a life without water growing up, and so he can look and then come here and experience and describe things to us in ways that we just don't even see.

01:51:30.972 --> 01:51:32.412
That's been very valuable.

01:51:32.412 --> 01:51:43.752
I'm not bad mouthing the man by pointing out that he went against the family when he said something disgusting to a person who hates those people, who hates our people.

01:51:43.752 --> 01:51:48.072
And if you think that West Virginians aren't our people, then I don't know what you're doing.

01:51:48.072 --> 01:51:50.712
It was obviously a discussion inside America.

01:51:50.712 --> 01:51:54.152
Probably 10 to 15% of our audience is outside of America.

01:51:54.152 --> 01:51:56.672
And you know, like, it's an American podcast.

01:51:56.672 --> 01:51:57.652
It's not insulting.

01:51:57.652 --> 01:52:00.612
I've said before, like, whatever you are, be the best you can be.

01:52:00.612 --> 01:52:03.952
I don't know how to tell anyone else anywhere else how to live.

01:52:03.952 --> 01:52:07.032
I would never tell the Japanese, here's how to be a better Japanese person.

01:52:07.152 --> 01:52:08.252
I have no idea.

01:52:08.252 --> 01:52:15.852
I think it's commendable for them to try, but I wouldn't know where to begin, and it would be obscene for me to try, because a conflict of interest there would be.

01:52:15.852 --> 01:52:17.572
I just, I got no clue.

01:52:17.572 --> 01:52:19.812
The conflict is my ignorance.

01:52:19.812 --> 01:52:26.912
Jared doesn't know that he has a massive blind spot by not having been raised as an American.

01:52:26.912 --> 01:52:28.232
It's not a huge insult.

01:52:28.232 --> 01:52:34.272
The world is full of people who weren't raised as Americans, and there are lots of things about being raised American that make us terrible.

01:52:34.272 --> 01:52:35.472
We've been mis-raised.

01:52:35.812 --> 01:52:37.812
That's so much of what we talk about on Stone Choir.

01:52:37.812 --> 01:52:46.092
It's like, look, these are generational sins that we're inheriting because of the failures of previous generations to raise the next ones correctly.

01:52:46.092 --> 01:52:53.252
So when I say he wasn't raised as an American, it's not a glowing endorsement of the way I was raised as a generation.

01:52:53.252 --> 01:52:59.992
It's just saying that there's something missing, just like there's something missing for me that I wasn't raised in Ashe County, North Carolina.

01:52:59.992 --> 01:53:01.552
I couldn't begin to know what that was like.

01:53:01.552 --> 01:53:02.352
I could read books.

01:53:02.352 --> 01:53:04.052
I could imagine, but that'd just be it.

01:53:04.312 --> 01:53:05.692
It'd be imagination.

01:53:05.692 --> 01:53:11.312
In the absence of direct experience for certain things, sometimes you just have to know to shut up.

01:53:11.312 --> 01:53:22.232
You know, Corey mentioned earlier that there are a lot of guys who listen to us who are mixed race, and we make clear to them when we talk to them personally, and I hope that we make clear online, we don't think they're disgusting.

01:53:22.232 --> 01:53:28.552
We don't think there's something wrong with them, that their parents made a decision that they're now forced to live with.

01:53:28.552 --> 01:53:39.412
Just as I am, my Northern father married my Southern mother, and then when we would visit my Southern family, they made it very clear to me that there was something wrong with me that was being raised as a Yankee.

01:53:39.412 --> 01:53:41.972
I heard all this stuff as like a seven and eight year old.

01:53:41.972 --> 01:53:43.412
I had no idea what was going on.

01:53:43.412 --> 01:53:44.792
Like I was just going to visit family.

01:53:44.792 --> 01:53:47.192
We basically had no family nearby.

01:53:47.192 --> 01:53:55.832
So it was a treat to go down there on very long car rides and then see people, and they were adamant that there was something wrong with me because I was a Yankee.

01:53:55.832 --> 01:53:56.712
I didn't understand it.

01:53:56.712 --> 01:53:57.892
Like I'm just your family.

01:53:57.892 --> 01:53:59.172
I don't know what's going on.

01:53:59.172 --> 01:54:02.892
Like they talked differently, but to me, there was nothing more to it.

01:54:02.892 --> 01:54:08.592
It was only in the last few years that I understood why they were so concerned and why they were upset about it.

01:54:08.592 --> 01:54:14.512
They were concerned that their sister's son, their nephew, was being raised a Yankee.

01:54:14.512 --> 01:54:17.032
They thought it was disgusting, and they made it clear to me.

01:54:17.032 --> 01:54:19.112
And in love, like they weren't abusive.

01:54:19.112 --> 01:54:20.452
It wasn't torment or anything.

01:54:20.452 --> 01:54:24.192
They were just, they wanted me the best that I could possibly be.

01:54:24.192 --> 01:54:26.692
And they knew that that couldn't happen in the North.

01:54:26.692 --> 01:54:28.552
That was their view as southerners.

01:54:29.212 --> 01:54:35.212
So, I have lived some small sense of the conflicted life of someone who's mixed race.

01:54:35.212 --> 01:54:36.192
Not remotely the same.

01:54:36.192 --> 01:54:38.512
I'm not trying to say I get your suffering.

01:54:38.512 --> 01:54:41.672
But even just that one small thing made me feel alienated.

01:54:41.672 --> 01:54:42.792
I can't imagine what it's like.

01:54:42.792 --> 01:54:50.652
If you could look at me and tell that you're half one thing or half another, that you don't actually belong in a way that everyone else does.

01:54:50.652 --> 01:54:52.092
That stinks.

01:54:52.092 --> 01:54:58.692
And so the reason that Corey and I speak about matters like race mixing is not despising people.

01:54:58.692 --> 01:55:06.812
It's that we don't want to create an entire generation of people who have that conflict of interest, because it's a recipe for war.

01:55:06.812 --> 01:55:12.732
It's the destruction of the American race, of the American white race that has been here for 400 years.

01:55:12.732 --> 01:55:17.792
My family on both sides, in the North and the South, equally American.

01:55:17.792 --> 01:55:20.112
And it's also creating people who have these conflicts.

01:55:20.112 --> 01:55:21.872
No one should have to live with that conflict.

01:55:21.872 --> 01:55:22.512
That stinks.

01:55:23.312 --> 01:55:25.512
It's a violation of the Fourth Commandment.

01:55:25.512 --> 01:55:28.092
I'm using the Lutheran numbering, because we always do.

01:55:28.092 --> 01:55:33.932
You can go to thebookofconquer.org and see the Lutheran numbering for the Ten Commandments.

01:55:33.932 --> 01:55:42.372
It's a violation of the Fourth Commandment for a son or a daughter to despise either his mother or his father over the other.

01:55:42.372 --> 01:55:50.052
And something that mixed-race kids face is something that every divorced kid faces automatically.

01:55:50.732 --> 01:56:01.352
Whenever two parents get divorced, whatever strengths or weaknesses the father and the mother had within a unified household, suddenly become very stark when they're two separate households.

01:56:01.352 --> 01:56:06.972
And suddenly the kid, maybe he has to choose, maybe he doesn't get to choose, but he's going to prefer.

01:56:06.972 --> 01:56:10.152
You always prefer your dad for some things and your mom for other things.

01:56:10.152 --> 01:56:10.992
That's natural.

01:56:10.992 --> 01:56:12.292
We're all human beings.

01:56:12.292 --> 01:56:13.992
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

01:56:13.992 --> 01:56:19.612
When it's under one roof, those preferences can be small, and they don't have to rise to the level of sin.

01:56:20.372 --> 01:56:33.572
When parents get divorced with kids, and those kids suddenly have to choose between their parents, between their households, it's necessarily sinful for the kids to prefer one over the other, because it's always going to lead to some degree of despising.

01:56:33.572 --> 01:56:36.372
It's a terrible position to put the kids in.

01:56:36.372 --> 01:56:42.052
Kids who are products of mixed-race marriages already have that baked in even if their parents stay together.

01:56:42.052 --> 01:56:55.672
Even if they have a happy marriage and happy household and everything, the fact that one parent is one race and the other is the other means that the product of that union doesn't have a place, is split in two, just like I'm split in two.

01:56:55.672 --> 01:57:02.972
Only much more seriously, because my differences internally, or at least social, it's cultural, but it's not racial.

01:57:02.972 --> 01:57:12.392
When you add race to the mix, not only is it visibly obvious, but it gets that much more difficult because there are qualitative differences between all the races.

01:57:12.392 --> 01:57:15.832
And qualitative doesn't mean, oh, amazing and oh, terrible.

01:57:15.832 --> 01:57:17.912
It means people are better at some things than others.

01:57:18.512 --> 01:57:24.792
You know, if one of your parents is from the horn of Africa, maybe you're a great long-distance runner.

01:57:24.792 --> 01:57:26.112
There are upsides.

01:57:26.112 --> 01:57:30.652
Not a question to say that there are qualitative differences, to say somebody stinks.

01:57:30.652 --> 01:57:38.432
But a kid who's faced with having a mixed parentage is faced with, well, how do I fit in in the world?

01:57:38.432 --> 01:57:41.892
And that's a position that we don't want anyone to be put in.

01:57:41.892 --> 01:57:47.492
And so the reason that so many of these guys reach out to us and ask for advice is that we don't lie about this stuff.

01:57:48.152 --> 01:57:53.412
And the advice in the council we give is always not we hate you or you should hate yourself.

01:57:53.412 --> 01:57:55.652
But basically, you need to pick a direction.

01:57:55.652 --> 01:58:01.492
If you are 50% one thing and 50% another, get married, pick a direction.

01:58:01.492 --> 01:58:08.412
You know, if you have a black mother and a white father, you're in America, I think you should probably marry someone white.

01:58:08.412 --> 01:58:11.932
And your kids are going to be three quarters, and their kids are going to be 87.5%.

01:58:12.452 --> 01:58:14.572
They're probably going to pass for white.

01:58:14.572 --> 01:58:17.232
And by that point, when they have kids, it's trivia.

01:58:17.652 --> 01:58:22.712
It's an interesting family bit of trivia, and you don't have to be...

01:58:22.712 --> 01:58:23.792
It's not the end of the world.

01:58:23.792 --> 01:58:25.092
It's not the end of your bloodline.

01:58:25.092 --> 01:58:26.092
It's just...

01:58:26.092 --> 01:58:30.512
It's a difficult situation that you're going to have to spend your whole life working through.

01:58:30.512 --> 01:58:32.792
Sometimes that's what conflicts of interest look like.

01:58:32.792 --> 01:58:47.012
It's just a difficult situation that's foisted on people, that they have to spend their whole lives trying to figure out how to navigate it in a way that's not sinful, in a way that is going to have the best outcomes for yourself and your family and your own kids down the road.

01:58:48.052 --> 01:58:50.332
It's hard, it's all a matter of wisdom.

01:58:50.332 --> 01:58:53.852
It's not necessarily a question of this is sin and that's not sin.

01:58:53.852 --> 01:58:59.992
The sin in that subject comes in because there are people who actively want to exterminate whites.

01:58:59.992 --> 01:59:02.392
They want to see no more whites.

01:59:02.392 --> 01:59:09.832
And the one surefire way to do that is to ensure that every white person does not marry within their race.

01:59:09.832 --> 01:59:12.212
And I mean, that's what it comes down to.

01:59:12.212 --> 01:59:14.732
That's sinful, but the rest of it's just a predicament.

01:59:14.732 --> 01:59:15.532
It's a hard thing.

01:59:16.052 --> 01:59:22.212
And all the people, all the pastors, all these liars telling these poor young guys, no, there's no sin, there's no problem here.

01:59:22.212 --> 01:59:24.172
Everything's hunky-dory, you're wonderful.

01:59:24.172 --> 01:59:27.352
It's not a question of wonderful, it's a question of being confused.

01:59:27.352 --> 01:59:29.972
It's a question of feeling alienated.

01:59:29.972 --> 01:59:36.832
Jared Taylor felt alienated in Japan when he saw white people, probably, because he was used to only seeing Japanese people.

01:59:36.832 --> 01:59:42.212
Imagine that situation, where apart from your parents, every single face you see is Japanese until you look in the mirror.

01:59:43.292 --> 01:59:47.912
That's a wild degree of alienation that we can't possibly experience here.

01:59:47.912 --> 01:59:55.392
So, he has tremendous love for America because he lived there, and he came back to where his own parents were from.

01:59:55.392 --> 02:00:01.332
He has roots here, he belongs here, he's an American, but he's missing something because of his upbringing.

02:00:01.332 --> 02:00:15.852
And he's missing the understanding that he has a conflict of interest there because his global view of things and his particular affinity for whites, I think one of the things he does well is talking in general, but he also misses the distinction.

02:00:15.852 --> 02:00:19.712
He never should have said anything nasty about West Virginians or anybody else.

02:00:19.712 --> 02:00:25.992
He could have very easily picked the underclass in New England and said exactly the same things, but no one ever seems to do that.

02:00:25.992 --> 02:00:32.192
It's always the South, it's always the people that are described as trash and garbage in the South that get picked on.

02:00:32.192 --> 02:00:34.012
I take that personally because those are my people.

02:00:35.172 --> 02:00:38.972
And at the same time, I want the best for him, just as he said he did.

02:00:38.972 --> 02:00:41.812
But I'm not going to air that dirty laundry in public.

02:00:41.812 --> 02:00:44.132
Don't go against the family in public.

02:00:44.132 --> 02:00:45.772
It's just that simple.

02:00:45.772 --> 02:00:50.512
And when people take that seriously, you're going to stay out of trouble.

02:00:50.512 --> 02:00:52.532
I didn't mean to stir up a bunch of crap about it.

02:00:52.532 --> 02:00:55.672
You only get so much done in 280 characters.

02:00:55.672 --> 02:01:00.412
But the bottom line is that our upbringing shape each of us, for better or worse.

02:01:00.412 --> 02:01:07.152
And whatever good things we bring from our childhoods and our experience, our lineage, use it for the benefit of others.

02:01:07.152 --> 02:01:08.112
Try to help people out.

02:01:08.112 --> 02:01:10.492
You don't have to be a motivational speaker.

02:01:10.492 --> 02:01:12.972
Hopefully, you don't lose an eyeball to PCP.

02:01:12.972 --> 02:01:20.032
But whatever you can share, whether it's good or bad about yourself, bring it to the table.

02:01:20.032 --> 02:01:24.572
But don't conceal something that gives you a conflict.

02:01:24.572 --> 02:01:27.772
If you have competing interests, disclose it.

02:01:27.772 --> 02:01:29.792
And it doesn't need to be a shameful thing.

02:01:29.872 --> 02:01:33.612
It's like, look, I talk about the fact that half of my family is Southern.

02:01:33.612 --> 02:01:35.712
That's a disclosure of a conflict.

02:01:35.712 --> 02:01:40.032
But it's also, look, I was raised in the North, but these are also my people.

02:01:40.032 --> 02:01:42.272
It's a mixed-race marriage, it very much is.

02:01:42.272 --> 02:01:45.252
Even though it's the same race, but the cultures are divergent.

02:01:45.252 --> 02:01:46.992
There's no doubt about that.

02:01:46.992 --> 02:01:50.352
I am empathetic to both, but I only possess one of them.

02:01:50.352 --> 02:01:57.512
And the other one, I have an affinity for, for historical and family reasons, but it's not mine immediately.

02:01:57.512 --> 02:02:02.952
When we recognize these things, and we can say them out loud, I think it just makes things a whole lot simpler.

02:02:02.952 --> 02:02:09.112
And if you think, oh, well, my mom is from the south, so you can't believe anything I say about the south, okay, fine, or the north.

02:02:09.112 --> 02:02:12.232
Like, I get it from both directions, so I understand.

02:02:12.232 --> 02:02:20.112
Like, I've had people despise me, like not many, but it doesn't take anything to set people off on social media to dismiss them.

02:02:20.112 --> 02:02:23.752
What's unfortunate is that they're never dismissing them for the right reasons.

02:02:23.752 --> 02:02:37.132
If you think that someone who has both sets of parents going back 400 years has nothing to say about the history of the country, okay, fine, I'm going to try to change your mind, because it would be a conflict of interest for me to do so.

02:02:37.132 --> 02:02:44.132
To acknowledge these things, to say it out loud, to lay your cards face up on the table and say, this is what I'm working with.

02:02:44.132 --> 02:02:47.352
Let me tell you what I know and what I've experienced.

02:02:47.352 --> 02:02:53.392
Put the best light on it, that's fine, but don't hide it, don't conceal it, don't try to pretend that it's not there.

02:02:53.392 --> 02:02:59.272
That's not, that's not honest, because everyone else is going to have to work with whatever comes out of your mouth.

02:02:59.272 --> 02:03:12.032
And if all you do is wave your Bible in the air and scream about racism or whatever, and you conceal the fact that your own family is not the same race as you, you're tricking people, that's not fair.

02:03:12.032 --> 02:03:15.432
Forget good or evil or any of the laws or anything else.

02:03:15.432 --> 02:03:20.032
It's not fair to people when you conceal something that's a material fact.

02:03:20.032 --> 02:03:27.032
And as soon as someone says, oh, by the way, he's whatever, light bulb comes on, everyone's like, oh yeah, okay, now it makes sense.

02:03:27.032 --> 02:03:28.692
Put that on the table first.

02:03:28.692 --> 02:03:32.552
Everybody, listening, everybody talking, put that stuff on the table.

02:03:32.552 --> 02:03:38.832
It's not shameful, it's just a question of laying out, here's what my interests are.

02:03:38.832 --> 02:03:54.832
I have interests in the North, I have interests in the South, I have interests that are English, and I have interests that are German, whatever it is, it's okay to say that, but then you need to understand that there may be circumstances where you have to be excluded from the conversation, because of it, just for the conversation.

02:03:54.832 --> 02:04:03.812
Not because you're a terrible human being, but because your inherent bias, because of one of those things, means that people need to have a conversation without you.

02:04:03.812 --> 02:04:07.252
And if you trust them to be honest, you're fine leaving the room.

02:04:07.252 --> 02:04:08.832
You're fine not being in the damn group.

02:04:08.832 --> 02:04:16.952
You trust these are good guys too, I've said my piece, I can leave, and this is going to turn out fine, because these are people who are trying to do their best to.

02:04:16.952 --> 02:04:21.352
We don't need to horn our way into every conversation and make sure that we get our way.

02:04:22.032 --> 02:04:24.512
That's fundamentally what honest communication is.

02:04:24.512 --> 02:04:30.932
Look, here's the best case for this here, the fact, here's my argument, I hope it's of some value to you.

02:04:30.932 --> 02:04:40.952
That's the way we approach every one of these episodes, and we hope that it's the way people approach the subject of conflicts of interest, because it's a real problem, and it doesn't need to be.

02:04:40.952 --> 02:04:48.172
With some honesty and some disclosure, these conflicts could be diminished, and all we could have to worry about is the interests.

02:04:48.172 --> 02:04:56.172
I hope that we can have that in the future, but it's going to take people actually thinking about this and processing it in this way, and then just being honest and playing with your cards face up.